Church Teaching on Unions

[tommcguire]

One who takes Catholic Social Teaching seriously will know that private property does not give exclusive ownership of that property to the individual. There is a principle of universal destination of created goods; ownership carries social responsibility.

Workers have the right to organize, collective bargaining is part of that right, and what that provides a way to balance power of employer. Government is an employer with great power; so the unions are needed for government workers.

It would seem that one who makes billions, is one who could and should do more than charity. Justice would require that person to pay fair share in taxes, tax breaks for such people do not contribute to the common good.

I have experience of an developer who hired contractors whose workers were not unionized. He would have them work three weeks, tell them he did not need them any more, hire another, and do the same. He did not pay for the work done. Contractors never got paid for work, his company completed the project, then went bankrupt. That did not stop the the developer. He went off started another company and did a project in another city and I assume operated the same way. UNIONS ARE MUCH NEEDED TODAY.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

One who takes Catholic Social Teaching seriously will know that private property does not give exclusive ownership of that property to the individual. There is a principle of universal destination of created goods; ownership carries social responsibility.

Workers have the right to organize, collective bargaining is part of that right, and what that provides a way to balance power of employer. Government is an employer with great power; so the unions are needed for government workers.

It would seem that one who makes billions, is one who could and should do more than charity. Justice would require that person to pay fair share in taxes, tax breaks for such people do not contribute to the common good.

I have experience of an developer who hired contractors whose workers were not unionized. He would have them work three weeks, tell them he did not need them any more, hire another, and do the same. He did not pay for the work done. Contractors never got paid for work, his company completed the project, then went bankrupt. That did not stop the the developer. He went off started another company and did a project in another city and I assume operated the same way. UNIONS ARE MUCH NEEDED TODAY.

Thank you!

 

[bbarrick8383]

One who takes Catholic Social Teaching seriously will know that private property does not give exclusive ownership of that property to the individual. There is a principle of universal destination of created goods; ownership carries social responsibility.

So, Catholic Social Teaching says that procurement of, say land by an individual who has worked to save up the means necessary to aquire the land does not truly own the land? I mean, I know everything we have truly belongs to God. But you want to tell me that Catholics believe that what I physically own, is not truly mine but also yours and whoever else wants to come along and do whatever they want to it? I’m currently learning all I can about Catholicism, raised a protestant, and constantly debating my protestant brother on Catholicism…I don’t think I would even want to try and make this argument with him.

Hugo Chavez doesn’t believe in private property either.

Workers have the right to organize, collective bargaining is part of that right, and what that provides a way to balance power of employer. Government is an employer with great power; so the unions are needed for government workers.

I can respect the idea of unions and the workers who want to organize to make their concerns aware to an employer. But it seems to me that many American unions have gone about it all wrong. I guess I can’t really argue it too much though, not having ever been in a union nor needing a union. I’ve never been anything but a blue collar hourly wage worker, and I’ve never had an instance with a company I couldn’t handle myself.

It would seem that one who makes billions, is one who could and should do more than charity. Justice would require that person to pay fair share in taxes, tax breaks for such people do not contribute to the common good.

Depends on what one who is making the billions does with their billions. Yes, they should, can and do pay their fair share of taxes. But some of them own hundreds of companies, employ thousands of people. Faith in God to me would require us to help these people, since you know the whole camel through the eye of the needle thing, by giving them avenues to be charitable. Not force them to be charitable, that is not charity at all. Many of the words I read on this forum about “the rich” are filled with greed and jealousy.

I have experience of an developer who hired contractors whose workers were not unionized. He would have them work three weeks, tell them he did not need them any more, hire another, and do the same. He did not pay for the work done. Contractors never got paid for work, his company completed the project, then went bankrupt. That did not stop the the developer. He went off started another company and did a project in another city and I assume operated the same way. UNIONS ARE MUCH NEEDED TODAY.

Sounds like they needed a judge and jury, not a union.

 

[Ender]

Workers have the right to organize, collective bargaining is part of that right, and what that provides a way to balance power of employer.

What is the source of the right to collective bargaining? Is it in the Constitution? The Catechism? If neither the nation nor the Church has identified it as a right then it’s probably not valid to proclaim that it is one.

UNIONS ARE MUCH NEEDED TODAY.

There was a time when doctors thought bleeding their patients was needed. It would seem that both concepts work the same way and lead to the same result.

Ender

 

[Tigg]

Workers have the right to organize, collective bargaining is part of that right, and what that provides a way to balance power of employer.

What I absolutely cannot reconcile is the new definition of “collective bargaining.” It would be more precise to call it collusion between the unions who are backed by the politicians they have put into office by the millions pumped into their campaigns. It is so completely corrupt!

 

[FAB]

One who takes Catholic Social Teaching seriously will know that private property does not give exclusive ownership of that property to the individual. There is a principle of universal destination of created goods; ownership carries social responsibility.

Workers have the right to organize, collective bargaining is part of that right, and what that provides a way to balance power of employer. Government is an employer with great power; so the unions are needed for government workers.

It would seem that one who makes billions, is one who could and should do more than charity. Justice would require that person to pay fair share in taxes, tax breaks for such people do not contribute to the common good.

I have experience of an developer who hired contractors whose workers were not unionized. He would have them work three weeks, tell them he did not need them any more, hire another, and do the same. He did not pay for the work done. Contractors never got paid for work, his company completed the project, then went bankrupt. That did not stop the the developer. He went off started another company and did a project in another city and I assume operated the same way. UNIONS ARE MUCH NEEDED TODAY.

When you speak of Goverment you are talking about everyone who works or live in the country or state. THe power is in the hands of the people. In the case of Goverment workers, enen though most provide needed services, for them to continue to demand higher wages and benifits which are more than they could possibly get with private companys, it is no longer fair wages, it becomes a form of robery of all those who pay the taxes. Then when they are told that these benifits can’t be paid they break the contract by walking out and claim they are mistreated. This is not the cenerior which is envisioned by Catholic Social Teaching.
By the way it is not those who make billions, as you claim that they should somehow pay for these benifits, it is the middle class. Your augument is class envy, by the way a sin. Even if you took all their money, it would not pay for what is being asked for.

As far as your example, yes there are those contractors, there are also many more who hire and provide for SKILLED workers very well. Non union shops were the job is projected by a person’s skill and work ethic, not because they are a member of a union and not if they are layed of still get 80% of their salary for not working. This is also unfair and fosters and attitude of I got mine, I don;t care about the rest of you.

 

[tommcguire]

Catholic Social Teaching has as a basic principle: Universal Destination of Goods. This quote from the Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church states it clearly. Worth reading the whole section.

#171: “Among the numerous implications of the common good, immediate significance is taken on by the principle of the universal destination of goods: “God destined the earth and all it contains for all men and all peoples so that all created things would be shared fairly by all mankind under the guidance of justice tempered by charity”[360]. This principle is based on the fact that “the original source of all that is good is the very act of God, who created both the earth and man, and who gave the earth to man so that he might have dominion over it by his work and enjoy its fruits (Gen 1:28-29). God gave the earth to the whole human race for the sustenance of all its members, without excluding or favoring anyone.”

#172:… “All other rights, whatever they are, including property rights and the right of free trade must be subordinated to this norm [the universal destination of goods]; they must not hinder it, but must rather expedite its application. It must be considered a serious and urgent social obligation to refer these rights to their original purpose.”[366].

It is hard to justify an annual income of a billion or more dollars for any one individual. One who earns that much money and engages in purchases of millions for self and family will in fact remove from circulation huge amounts of resources needed for the necessities of life of others. Take those same millions and put it to work in a community of workers, the money will circulate many times contributing to the common good.

Unions are necessary to help bring about a balance so one group of owners do not dominate another group workers. Collective bargaining is one of the powers that helps bring the balance. True government is by the people and of the people. But when a person works for “the government”; the government is the employer. I do not argue unions unions are perfect. I say as Catholics we are called to work for justice for all, "tempered by charity. Working to improve unions is one way we can work for justice.

 

[Ender]

Unions are necessary to help bring about a balance so one group of owners do not dominate another group workers.

Given modern labor conditions in the US this statement is completely false. Since over 90% of all workers do not belong to any union, if your statement was true then it should be a trivial task to point out those workers being dominated by owners. That, in any normal situation, such groups do not exist should be compelling evidence that this claim is without any substance at all.

Collective bargaining is one of the powers that helps bring the balance.

Imbalance where it exists is purely on the union side. As evidence for this claim one only has to look at those workforce areas which are heavily unionized: Wisconsin, California, New Jersey, New York, Ohio - the list of states with out of control government spending is virtually endless. It’s pretty evident that government unions have been a blight on society but the same is true of industry, and the auto industry is the perfect example of bleeding companies dry for short term gains at the expense of long term viability.

Ender

 

[FAB]

It is hard to justify an annual income of a billion or more dollars for any one individual. One who earns that much money and engages in purchases of millions for self and family will in fact remove from circulation huge amounts of resources needed for the necessities of life of others. Take those same millions and put it to work in a community of workers, the money will circulate many times contributing to the common good.

You sound like Michael Moore and all socialist. People with money don’t sit on their money, it is invested, in banks that give loans, capital investments, it goes bak into the enconomy in mant ways.

 

[Tigg]

It is hard to justify an annual income of a billion or more dollars for any one individual.

Are you saying that no one is entitled to this level of income, not even through the merits of their labor, talent and intelligence? I believe this thinking may lead to dangerous ground as explained by Pope Leo in his encyclical on socialism, “Quod Apostolici Muneris.”

#9 But Catholic wisdom, sustained by the precepts of natural and divine law, provides with especial care for public and private tranquillity in its doctrines and teachings regarding the duty of government and the distribution of the goods which are necessary for life and use. For, while the socialists would destroy the “right” of property, alleging it to be a human invention altogether opposed to the inborn equality of man, and, claiming a community of goods, argue that poverty should not be peaceably endured, **and that the property and privileges of the rich may be rightly invaded, the Church, with much greater wisdom and good sense, recognizes the inequality among men, who are born with different powers of body and mind, inequality in actual possession, also, and holds that the right of property and of ownership, which springs from nature itself, must not be touched and stands inviolate. For she knows that stealing and robbery were forbidden in so special a manner by God, the Author and Defender of right, that He would not allow man even to desire what belonged to another, and that thieves and despoilers, no less than adulterers and idolaters, are shut out from the Kingdom of Heaven. **

The encyclical, of course, goes on to warn the rich of their responsibility to the poor.

 

[tommcguire]

The Church’s Social Teaching flows from the belief in the Trinity. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are equal, in God there is no domination and sub-ordination.

Corporations that have as their only purpose profit do not put priority on the common good. The worker becomes subordinate to the goal of profit. Unions, which are not perfect, are meant to create solidarity among workers to give them power to bargain with employers. There are not enough unions; many workers, who do not earn enough to support their families, would greatly benefit from union organizing.

Here are two more quotes from the Compendium of Social Doctrine of the Church that clearly state the social responsibility of ownership of property.

1. • “The Church’s teaching moreover calls for recognition of the social function of any form of private ownership that clearly refers to the necessary relation to the common good. Man should regard the external things that he legitimately possesses not only as his own but also as common in the sense that they should be able to benefit not only him but also others. The universal destination of goods entails obligations on how goods are to be used by their legitimate owners.”*
2. • "The Church’s social Magisterium sees an expression of the relationship between labor and capital also in the institution of private property, in the right to and the use of private property. The right to private property is subordinated to the principle of the the universal destination of goods and must not constitute a reason for impeding the work or development of others. Property, which is acquired in the first place through work, must be placed at the service of work. This is particularly true regarding the possession of the means of production, but the same principle also concerns the goods proper to the world of finance, technology, knowledge and personnel. The means of production "cannot be possessed against labor, they cannot even be possessed for possession’s sake. It becomes illegitimate to possess them when property “is not utilized or when it serves to impede the work of others, in an effort to gain a profit which is not the result of the overall expansion of work and the wealth of society, but rather is the result of curbing them or of illicit exploitation, speculation or the breaking of solidarity among working people.” *

If I own five cars each worth one million dollars. I cannot use them for the good of society. They are owned for the sake of owning. The money spent on them, if spent on 165 vehicles each worth $30,000.00 have the potential to expand the social wealth of society in a greater way than my owning five million dollar cars.

 

[pnewton]

The Church’s Social Teaching flows from the belief in the Trinity. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are equal, in God there is no domination and sub-ordination.

You threw me for a loop with this one. I did not see anything on the Trinity in your quotes. Can you show where the Church teaches this?

 

[Ender]

There are not enough unions; many workers, who do not earn enough to support their families, would greatly benefit from union organizing.

Clearly we disagree on this point but the larger issue is that there is nothing in Church teaching to support it. This is not a claim the Church makes.

Here are two more quotes from the Compendium of Social Doctrine of the Church that clearly state the social responsibility of ownership of property.

The problem with these citations is that they don’t address the issue at hand and my understanding of what they mean is clearly different than yours. If this is the best you’ve got then you’ve failed to make any point whatever about the Church’s position on unions as it applies to the issues being raised in Wisconsin, Indiana, and Ohio.

Ender

 

[tommcguire]

I accept the following statement about the issues in Wisconsin.
*
USCCB Chairman Supports Wisconsin Bishops on the Rights of Workers

WASHINGTON (February 24, 2011)—Bishop Stephen E. Blaire of Stockton, California, chairman of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops’ Committee on Domestic Justice and Human Development, expressed his “support for and solidarity” with the Wisconsin bishops’ statement on the rights of workers.

In a February 23 letter to Archbishop Jerome E. Listecki of Milwaukee, Bishop Blaire wrote, “You and our brother bishops in Wisconsin are offering a timely reminder of what the Church teaches on the rights and duties of workers, including the right to form and belong to unions and other associations, and the obligation to address difficult problems with respect for the rights and needs of all. As you insist, ‘hard times do not nullify the moral obligation each of us has to respect the legitimate rights of workers.’”

“Catholic teaching and your statement remind us these are not just political conflicts or economic choices; they are moral choices with enormous human dimensions. The debates over worker representation and collective bargaining are not simply matters of ideology or power, but involve principles of justice, participation and how workers can have a voice in the workplace and economy.”

Recalling the teachings of Popes Benedict XVI and John Paul II on unions and the rights of workers, Bishop Blaire praised the Wisconsin bishops for consistently sharing the “teaching of the Church in the midst of this controversy” and made a call to everyone involved to overcome differences and put the common good first.

“We pray that the leaders and people of Wisconsin—and across our nation—will respond to your “appeal to everyone—lawmakers, citizens, workers, and labor unions—to move beyond divisive words and actions and work together, so that Wisconsin can recover in a humane way from the current fiscal crisis.”*

As for Trinitarian basis of Catholic Social Doctrine that, in my opinion’ implies equality, is extensive. Here is one quote from the Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church

*#33. “To be human means to be called to interpersonal communion,” because the image and the likeness of the Trinitarian God are the basis of the whole of human ethos, which reaches its apex in the commandment of love. The modern cultural, social, economic and political phenomenon of interdependence, which intensifies and makes particularly evident the bonds that unite the human family, accentuates once more, in the light of Revelation, a new model of the unity of the human race, which must ultimately inspire our solidarity. The supreme model of unity,which is a reflection of the intimate life of God, one God in thee Person, is what we Christians mean by the word communion." *

When I speak of more unions I am not expressing a defined teaching of the Catholic Church, but rather giving my prudential judgment on the issue.

Not this kind of union described by a UAW local president in an interview with NPR in 1988,
.
“You’d lose a lot of sleep on how bad the company put the screws to you during your working-hour shifts,” Then the. *“Next night, I’d lose sleep laying there giggling on how bad I put it to them.”
*
Rather This is the kind of union that I recommend. It represents the best qualities of solidarity, which is key to Catholic Social Teaching about unions.

“Nobody in the world can quarrel with the quality and results of Ford,” said UAW President Bob King, in a recent interview with Detroit station WDET. “That is driven as much by the UAW as it is by Ford, because it’s a strong partnership. Because of our strong respect, we’ve done it together.”

 

[FAB]

If I own five cars each worth one million dollars. I cannot use them for the good of society. They are owned for the sake of owning. The money spent on them, if spent on 165 vehicles each worth $30,000.00 have the potential to expand the social wealth of society in a greater way than my owning five million dollar cars.

What about the workers that made the million $ cars, the suppliers, craftsman, mechanics. Are they not benifiting from the puchase.
It appears you just don’t like people with money.

 

[Ender]

I accept the following statement about the issues in Wisconsin. … [big long quote]

The citation included lots of let’s-play-nice encouragement and the-Church-recognizes-the-right-of-unions-to-exist rhetoric. What it did not contain was a single declarative statement about any particular position one should or should not take. This is my point: the Church has taken no side of this argument, despite the fact that the bishop might be implying that he prefers the union position. There is no Church teaching that could be used to condemn what the governor is attempting to do; if there were the bishops would have certainly used it.

When I speak of more unions I am not expressing a defined teaching of the Catholic Church, but rather giving my prudential judgment on the issue.

Fair enough - so am I. More to the point, so are the bishops who have commented on this issue.

Ender

 

[pnewton]

The citation included lots of let’s-play-nice encouragement and the-Church-recognizes-the-right-of-unions-to-exist rhetoric. What it did not contain was a single declarative statement about any particular position one should or should not take. This is my point: the Church has taken no side of this argument, despite the fact that the bishop might be implying that he prefers the union position. There is no Church teaching that could be used to condemn what the governor is attempting to do; if there were the bishops would have certainly used it.

I think this is exactly what is happening, except that I never got that they were implying anything other than what they actually said. Those that refuse to consider the legitimacy of unions are going against Church teaching, as are those that are using the Church’s teaching to justify a specific union position.

 

[tommcguire]

Any attempt to destroy unions, to deny collective bargaining is to destroy unions, is against Catholic Church teaching. A key principle of Catholic Social Teaching is solidarity; a principle is repeated over and over again in the documents. Unions are one form of that solidarity. To destroy unions is to destroy solidarity. So the only conclusion I can come to about what is happening in the Wisconsin and in other states is an attempt to destroy unions and that is against Catholic Social Teaching.

As for the point on the cars, yes some good for the economy does come from the manufacture of the five cars each worth one million dollars. But once produced, how do they contribute to the common good of all?

If the same resource were put into producing five million dollars worth of passenger cars. Think of the greater contribution to the common good. These cars would be used to transport hundreds to work, play, church, vacation, employ many mechanics, provide income to hundreds of gas stations, and when after a certain number of years produce jobs for more workers to produce more cars.

On the other hand, the five cars worth one million each sit in a garage of one owner and produce no income except for the people hired by that one owner. Catholic Social Teaching does not support private consumption of economic goods for the pleasure of one owner of this magnitude.

 

[bbarrick8383]

Any attempt to destroy unions, to deny collective bargaining is to destroy unions, is against Catholic Church teaching. A key principle of Catholic Social Teaching is solidarity; a principle is repeated over and over again in the documents. Unions are one form of that solidarity. To destroy unions is to destroy solidarity. So the only conclusion I can come to about what is happening in the Wisconsin and in other states is an attempt to destroy unions and that is against Catholic Social Teaching.

Seems to me that unions have been doing a pretty good job at destroying their reputation thereby destroying themselves over the past 70 years or so.

I look at unions like I look at liberalism.

Their ideas are so great and brilliant they make them mandatory.

Unions are so great they try and force people to join them.

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

The unions we currently have are much different than just workers organizing or the unions of the 19th century.

This.

Like my grandfather said: Unions are a necessary evil.

I don’t know what the church officially teaches about unions or their stance, but I do know that the church teaches that all workers should be given just wages and treated fairly.

Whether you think unions are the best way to secure those rights or not are up to you.