Church Teaching on Unions

[Ender]

Any attempt to destroy unions, to deny collective bargaining is to destroy unions, is against Catholic Church teaching.

This position is not tenable. Nowhere does the Church state that unions have a right to exist in all situations. She does support a generic “right of unions to exist” but that says nothing about whether public service unions should be permitted and it certainly says nothing about collective bargaining. I am not aware that the Church has ever said anything about this, and if the Church hasn’t said anything, there is no basis for your claim.

A key principle of Catholic Social Teaching is solidarity; a principle is repeated over and over again in the documents. Unions are one form of that solidarity. To destroy unions is to destroy solidarity. So the only conclusion I can come to about what is happening in the Wisconsin and in other states is an attempt to destroy unions and that is against Catholic Social Teaching.

If anything is being destroyed here it is logic. As you say, unions are one form of solidarity, but even if the public sector unions in Wisconsin were banned that means nothing about the destruction of solidarity for the simple reason that unions are not the only form of solidarity and not in all cases a necessary one. Again, you are trying to cobble together a moral argument where one does not exist. The bishops haven’t asserted this so it should be pretty obvious that they don’t see the moral difficulties you claim to find. Be clear about this: no bishop has come out and said that the proposals of the governors re the unions are immoral so it’s a bit of a stretch for you to make that claim.

Ender

 

[tommcguire]

I respect the moral authority of the Catholic Bishops. I do not always agree with them, not required to either, except in terms of defined doctrine. In my opinion the deliberate destruction of unions, in part financed by billionaires, is against the principles of Catholic Social Teaching and as a faithful Catholic will do all I can to oppose such actions.

 

[white_sheep]

This.

Like my grandfather said: Unions are a necessary evil.

I don’t know what the church officially teaches about unions or their stance, but I do know that the church teaches that all workers should be given just wages and treated fairly.

Whether you think unions are the best way to secure those rights or not are up to you.

With all respect to your grandfather, his opinion is outdated by many decades.

Unions are no longer a necessary evil. People who do not work for unions make enough to survive without threatening strikes to get raises. We have OSHA, the EEOC, and other governmental agencies now which take care of most of the safety considerations that unions used to handle.

But they are evil. Almost all unions contribute to political campaigns, and about 99% of that funding goes to pro-abortion politicians. They supply massive funding for them, probably the majority of their funding. I’ve seen figures that show unions give more money to political campaigns than all other sources, but even if that isn’t true, the amount they give is enormous. **Therefore, it is unacceptable to join a union. It is immoral and should be avoided at all costs. To join a union is to support abortion. You might as well be voting for Obama. **

 

[white_sheep]

I respect the moral authority of the Catholic Bishops. I do not always agree with them, not required to either, except in terms of defined doctrine. In my opinion the deliberate destruction of unions, in part financed by billionaires, is against the principles of Catholic Social Teaching and as a faithful Catholic will do all I can to oppose such actions.

The unions we have all need to be abolished. They are not representative of Catholic morality or social teaching. That is not to say that a union could not be established which operated along the proper principles, I’m sure one could, but they are not the ones we have. That the Church teaches that unions are good does not mean that all unions are good. The same can be said of many things, they are good in some circumstances and not others.

 

[pnewton]

The unions we have all need to be abolished. They are not representative of Catholic morality or social teaching. That is not to say that a union could not be established which operated along the proper principles, I’m sure one could, but they are not the ones we have. That the Church teaches that unions are good does not mean that all unions are good. The same can be said of many things, they are good in some circumstances and not others.

It is interesting to call as a source Catholic teaching for abolishing unions. Have you ever heard a bishop or any authority in the Church make this statement? If not, I question whether you are trying to adhere to Catholic teaching in this opinion, or making Catholic teaching adhere to your opinion. Remember that the most recent formulation of this doctrine was in Caritas in Veritate. The Holy Father said nothing like this.

I know that unions can and do depart from sound Catholic principles, as do Governors and Republicans, but departure from Catholic principles do not mean that something needs to be abolished, rather we speak of Republicans or unions. It means that Catholic should stick to their principles and attempt correction.

 

[white_sheep]

It is interesting to call as a source Catholic teaching for abolishing unions. Have you ever heard a bishop or any authority in the Church make this statement? If not, I question whether you are trying to adhere to Catholic teaching in this opinion, or making Catholic teaching adhere to your opinion. Remember that the most recent formulation of this doctrine was in Caritas in Veritate. The Holy Father said nothing like this.

I know that unions can and do depart from sound Catholic principles, as do Governors and Republicans, but departure from Catholic principles do not mean that something needs to be abolished, rather we speak of Republicans or unions. It means that Catholic should stick to their principles and attempt correction.

The Church calls for abolishing laws making abortion legal, does it not? That doesn’t mean the Church calls for the end to law or government. Same thing here. Our unions need to be abolished, that doesn’t mean that all unions must be abolished.

 

[pnewton]

The Church calls for abolishing laws making abortion legal, does it not? That doesn’t mean the Church calls for the end to law or government. Same thing here.

It is hardly the same thing. Yes, the Church calls for abortion laws to be abolished, but no, I do not think even once the Church has called for a union to be abolished. If I am wrong, please point it out. If I am not, then it is not an analogy.

 

[white_sheep]

It is hardly the same thing. Yes, the Church calls for abortion laws to be abolished, but no, I do not think even once the Church has called for a union to be abolished. If I am wrong, please point it out. If I am not, then it is not an analogy.

The Church does not have to proclaim something for it to be true.

Unions directly, and almost exclusively, support pro-abortion politicians, not just a few, either. Practically all their methods are also immoral. Such an institution which is almost entirely corrupt in every facet can’t be reformed.

 

[MarcoPolo]

In case anyone has not read it, Father Sirico wrote in the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel about how the unions described in Catholic teaching are an ideal that are not always the unions we see in reality.

Father Sirico on Unions.

.

 

[pnewton]

The Church does not have to proclaim something for it to be true.

No but if the Church does not proclaim something then Catholics should not say that they do. They also should not use the Catholic Church as a reason for an opinion that the Church does not hold.

As far as supporting politicians who support those who perform abortions, the Catholic Church is quite clear that unions should not be involved in the political realm, while at the same time supporting their existence. No, unions should not back politicians. Yes, they should exist. These two are not incompatible.

I am also very much in favorable of laws that prohibit discrimination based on union affiliation (right to work), but I would never think that we should not have something the Church says is just on the basis of this one wrong.

 

[white_sheep]

No but if the Church does not proclaim something then Catholics should not say that they do. .

Fine, if you want to be petty, then show where I said the Church says something it doesn’t say.

They also should not use the Catholic Church as a reason for an opinion that the Church does not hold.

Also so where I did this.

 

[white_sheep]

I am also very much in favorable of laws that prohibit discrimination based on union affiliation (right to work), but I would never think that we should not have something the Church says is just on the basis of this one wrong.

Yeah, abortion just isn’t a big enough issue on its own.

 

[tommcguire]

Congratulations to the unions who just won a major contract with the Hilton Hotels in Chicago.

I wish there were unions are intended for worker, but they are most needed for unemployed people in urban areas, who want to work, but cannot find work. Consequently cannot properly provide the necessities of life for themselves and families. The problem is not in small part due to the lack of recognition of the social responsibility of corporations to set goals beyond profit for the stockholder.

The Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church

#305. * The Magisterium recognizes the fundamental role played by labor unions whose existence is connected with the right to form associations or unions to defend the vital interests of workers employed in the various professions. Unions " grew up from the struggle of the workers–workers in general but especially the industrial workers–to protect their just rights vis-a-vis the entrepreneurs and the owners of the means of production. Such 0organizations, while pursuing their Specific purpose with regard to the common good, are a positive influence for social order and solidarity, and are therefore an indispensable element for social life. The recognition of the worker’ rights has always been a difficult problem to resolve because this recognition takes place with complex historical and institutional processes, and still today it remains incomplete. This makes the practice of authentic solidarity among workers more fitting and necessary then ever.*

 

[bbarrick8383]

Congratulations to the unions who just won a major contract with the Hilton Hotels in Chicago.

I hope the benefits are pretty good, because I can’t imgaine 16 bucks an hour stretching too far in any city, especially Chicago.

 

[pnewton]

Yeah, abortion just isn’t a big enough issue on its own.

This thread is not about abortion. Abortion is not the sum total of Catholic teaching. As I have never defended abortion, or even suggested a comparison, I view this comment as an intellectual dishonesty. It makes no more sense in this context than bringing in Nazi’s or sexual abuse.

Perhaps abortion is becoming a type of Godwin’s Law for discussions on Catholic social teaching. I think it is a good idea to recall the title of this thread.

Church teaching on Unions

Not personal opinions about unions and not church teaching on* abortion*.

 

[Ender]

The Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church
#305. …

Perhaps you should have read a little further. As I have said before, the fact that the Church recognizes the rights of unions does not at all mean she believes that their actions are always right - which is the point of this discussion.

307. Unions do not, however, have the character of “political parties” struggling for power, and they should not be forced to submit to the decisions of political parties nor be too closely linked to them. “In such a situation they easily lose contact with their specific role, which is to secure the just rights of workers within the framework of the common good of the whole of society; instead they become an instrument used for other purposes”

It is not rational to claim that unions haven’t become inextricably linked to the Democrat party and have become “an instrument used for other purposes.”

Ender

 

[tommcguire]

In the present labor crisis workers are being forced by political interests to give up collective bargaining, which is one of the most important sources of their power in relationship to employers.

What about truth? So much of what we are getting in the sound bites about the present crisis is false. That makes it extremely hard to make judgments about what is happening.

I find it hard to understand why corporations, billionaires, even millionaires are given tax breaks, a major part of state budgets, when ordinary workers are asked too give up wages and benefits, which is only a fraction of state budgets.

 

[Ender]

In the present labor crisis workers are being forced by political interests to give up collective bargaining, which is one of the most important sources of their power in relationship to employers.

It is surely true that collective bargaining is a source of union power. Acknowledging that says nothing about whether they have abused that power and should no longer be trusted to wield it.

I find it hard to understand why corporations, billionaires, even millionaires are given tax breaks, a major part of state budgets, when ordinary workers are asked too give up wages and benefits, which is only a fraction of state budgets.

Fifteen years ago the state of Alabama gave what were considered at the time ridiculous incentives (including tax breaks) to lure a foreign auto company into building a manufacturing plant there. The expense, which was considered madness then, has been more than recouped by the state which has induced a second company to build there. How many auto companies are building plants in Norther states? States need businesses and 50% of something is a whole lot better than 100% of nothing. Manufacturing has left the Northern tier states because it is too expensive; that’s why the South has become the Sun Belt and the North has become the Rust Belt. States that raise taxes on businesses will only hasten their departure to other locations - and especially to states that offer them tax breaks.

Ender

 

[tommcguire]

Taxes may be one factor in manufacturers moving from one state to another. It is not the only one. Short term goals to make profit for stock holders also played a part. Executives bent on their own career goals are in part responsible. Unions, executives, and consumers share the responsibility for the decline in the automotive industry.

We now live in a global world; the economy of every country has changed. The future of unions is no longer about just the local situation. Unions must be focused on the global situation. What can be done to provide for all human beings? The principle of universal destination of goods must find a way to impact how humans around the world do business.

I agree unions do not always serve the common good. Likewise, owners, employers, corporations, and government do not always serve the common good. Catholic Social Doctrine has principles that can help move the world in a direction that brings peace built on justice for all human beings.

 

[white_sheep]

This thread is not about abortion. Abortion is not the sum total of Catholic teaching. As I have never defended abortion, or even suggested a comparison, I view this comment as an intellectual dishonesty. It makes no more sense in this context than bringing in Nazi’s or sexual abuse.

Perhaps abortion is becoming a type of Godwin’s Law for discussions on Catholic social teaching. I think it is a good idea to recall the title of this thread.

Church teaching on Unions

Not personal opinions about unions and not church teaching on* abortion*.

Abortion is intricately involved, however.

You join and pay $50 a month. They promise to use their power to force your employer to pay you more money and give you more benefits although you already make enough to get by on. They also promise to spend a good bit of your $50/month on pro-abortion political campaigns.

So they’re paying you to support them so they can keep fighting to put pro-abortion politicians in power.

Abortion is completely involved, and makes joining these groups entirely immoral.