Church Teaching on Unions

[pnewton]

Abortion is completely involved, and makes joining these groups entirely immoral.

Since this is a thread on Church teaching, can you show me where the Catholic Church has ever shown joining these unions to be immoral?

FYI - Abortion is not “completely” involved whatever that means. I suggest that the Church’s teaching on remote and proximate material cooperation with evil is more germaine if the situation existed as you described it. Here is how these terms are applied in bioethics.

consciencelaws.org/issues-ethical/ethical002.html

In any case the adjectives “completely” and “entirely” do not apply.

Here is another case of possible licit material cooperation with evil, where using vaccination derived from aborted fetuses may be lawful, if not other option exists and a few other criteria are met (see the end)/

immunize.org/concerns/vaticandocument.htm

This is all solid Church teaching, as opposed to opining our feelings.

The EWTN voting guide also sheds light on some misconceptions, like we must only vote on abortion.

ewtn.com/vote/voting_faq.htm

Nothwithstanding my objection to white sheep’s opinions, her objection is real and a valid Catholic view point. It is specifically why closed shops do not allow for the conscientious objection for someone who can not pay dues with out violating conscience. It also points to the danger, which the Church has repeated, of unions engaging in politics.

 

[white_sheep]

Since this is a thread on Church teaching, can you show me where the Catholic Church has ever shown joining these unions to be immoral?

I don’t need to. This is one of those things that doesn’t need to be spelled out. Why does everything have to have an infallible and an anathema attached to it?

Joining and paying dues to an organization which has as one of its primary functions the direct support of pro-abortion politicians is just wrong, period.

 

[pnewton]

I don’t need to. This is one of those things that doesn’t need to be spelled out. Why does everything have to have an infallible and an anathema attached to it?

Joining and paying dues to an organization which has as one of its primary functions the direct support of pro-abortion politicians is just wrong, period.

No period. We have the Church to guide us through the tangle of our one billion personal opinions. That is why I gave the links for those that want to understand better why some things are not black and white. If they were, we would all be lost for the shopping we do and the taxes we pay.

 

[white_sheep]

No period. We have the Church to guide us through the tangle of our one billion personal opinions. That is why I gave the links for those that want to understand better why some things are not black and white. If they were, we would all be lost for the shopping we do and the taxes we pay.

Some things are more “remote” than others. Sometimes the evil is so remote or so small a portion of the whole that it becomes insignificant, or at least less significant.

Union contributions to pro-abortion political campaigns is far from insignificant. It is one of the largest, if not the largest source of all campaign funds, and 99% of it goes to pro-abortion candidates. This cannot be glossed over, it is too pervasive, period. Unions are one of the dominant political forces in this country and as long as they are backing abortion there will be little to no progress on that front.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

Some things are more “remote” than others. Sometimes the evil is so remote or so small a portion of the whole that it becomes insignificant, or at least less significant.

Union contributions to pro-abortion political campaigns is far from insignificant. It is one of the largest, if not the largest source of all campaign funds, and 99% of it goes to pro-abortion candidates. This cannot be glossed over, it is too pervasive, period. Unions are one of the dominant political forces in this country and as long as they are backing abortion there will be little to no progress on that front.

Unions contribute to Democrats because they support the rights of working people and unions. If the Republican party started supporting the rights of working people and unions, they’d start getting union money, too. Then again, with all that sweet corporate scratch flowing in faster than the Los Angeles River during a 500 year flood, who needs union money?

 

[pnewton]

I have a question that might be of importance. Do unions vote on their leadership? If so, it would be morally licit to always vote for someone who opposed abortion and promised not to use any funds on a pro-abortion candidate.

 

[pnewton]

Unions contribute to Democrats because they support the rights of working people and unions. If the Republican party started supporting the rights of working people and unions, they’d start getting union money, too. Then again, with all that sweet corporate scratch flowing in faster than the Los Angeles River during a 500 year flood, who needs union money?

A better solution would be if unions to not support any politician and follow the Catholic teaching of keeping unions out of politics. There is no complelling reason that a union must use funds for anything other than the good of their members. Perhaps that is a hold over (or a continuation) of corrupt roots. Political ties help everyone to wet their beak.

 

[centurionguard]

I agree.

With the industrial revolution, there was plenty of opportunity of those with the capital to start and run businesses to exploit workers. That seems like a rarity nowadays; most organized employees make a decent, fair wage…and some make more in the public sector unions than in private sector unions.

Normally I would agree with everything you’ve stated.

However; given the power house of some (“huge”) heavyweight unions today I’m not so sure the fairness that Pope Leo XII was trying to envision is the same in ultra modern times today.

I won’t bother listing some of the big heavy weight union hitters.

Today I often find myself camped in the middle on neutral ground when it comes to big union strikes favoring neither side.

Usually today both sides end up wanting something for nothing.

Is it a fair statement to say that both management and unions deserve one another?

Peace
Chris

 

[LCMS_No_More]

A better solution would be if unions to not support any politician and follow the Catholic teaching of keeping unions out of politics. There is no complelling reason that a union must use funds for anything other than the good of their members. Perhaps that is a hold over (or a continuation) of corrupt roots. Political ties help everyone to wet their beak.

Which is exactly WHY unions MUST participate in the political sphere. Opposing forces (corporate interests) are funneling money into Republican coffers as fast as they can to get the Republicans to act in their interest (which is NOT the same as the interests of working people). There MUST be a voice to represent working people and that’s what unions are for.

 

[pnewton]

Which is exactly WHY unions MUST participate in the political sphere. Opposing forces (corporate interests) are funneling money into Republican coffers as fast as they can to get the Republicans to act in their interest (which is NOT the same as the interests of working people).

Again, another opinion. Why not simply stick with the Church teaching on this. There is still a lot of room for debate, but this topic is dealt with directly.

The Church’s traditional teaching makes a valid distinction between the respective roles and functions of trade unions and politics.

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20090629_caritas-in-veritate_en.html

In this sense, union activity undoubtedly enters the field of *politics, *understood as *prudent concern for the common good. *However, the role of unions is not to “play politics” in the sense that the expression is commonly understood today. Unions do not have the character of political parties struggling for power; they should not be subjected to the decision of political parties or have too close links with them. In fact, in such a situation they easily lose contact with their specific role, which is to secure the just rights of workers within the £ramework of the common good of the whole of society; instead they become an instrument used for other purposes.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_14091981_laborem-exercens_en.html

The attitude that unions simply must help a candidate in order to promote their good is exactly the dangerous situation that John Paul II warns against. I gives many good Catholics a moral objection to belongin to a labor union. Thus, this political involvement serves as a divider to worker solidarity, alienating 50% of all Americans.

 

[white_sheep]

Unions contribute to Democrats because they support the rights of working people and unions.

Their motivations are irrelevant, they support pro-abortion politicians almost exclusively.

If the Republican party started supporting the rights of working people and unions, they’d start getting union money, too.

I doubt it.

Then again, with all that sweet corporate scratch flowing in faster than the Los Angeles River during a 500 year flood, who needs union money?

Unions contribute more money to political campaigns than businesses do, by a long shot. Business contributions are relatively evenly split between the parties with the Republican party getting about 55% of it while the Democrats receive about 45% of it.

 

[bbarrick8383]

Unions contribute to Democrats because they support the rights of working people and unions. If the Republican party started supporting the rights of working people and unions, they’d start getting union money, too. Then again, with all that sweet corporate scratch flowing in faster than the Los Angeles River during a 500 year flood, who needs union money?

Democrats like Nancy Pelosi who is owns one of the few vineyards in Cali that does not use union labor?

I think they pander to you, give you nice benefits the taxpayers can not afford, in exchange for your vote. Then when Republicans try to do the right thing fiscally and tell you the taxpayers can not afford those benefits, the Democrats start yelling about raising taxes on rich to pay those benefits and you guys have been fed cookies this whole time and you don’t know what real food tastes like so you get all infuriated because there is someone left who still makes a million dollars who could afford your cookies and you want to take that from them so badly instead of eating your greens to get healthy again. Then you come to a forum and write a horrible signature about how the corporate bad guy millionaire wont cough up enough of his own cookies to give you more and more cookies.

All the while us, non union workers, are sitting back shaking our heads at you union folk. Because you have no idea that there is a world out there that works just fine without a political party pandering to your needs and shoving cookies down your throat.

The only way Democrats can get votes is if they promise people free cookies. They get those votes without the voters every giving a **** about where the cookies came from.

 

[bbarrick8383]

Cookie anyone?

 

[Millie1997]

Since this is a thread on Church teaching, can you show me where the Catholic Church has ever shown joining these unions to be immoral?

The Cathechism of the Catholic Church discusses human associations in Sections 1878-1948.

Yes, we have a right to form unions. No, those unions cannot do anything they please and still please God. Our modern unions are consistently pro-abortion and they support Democratic politicians who are consistently pro-abortion. Unions today set up workers against business as adversaries instead of players on the same team who need to work together. They paint business as the eternal bad guy and workers as the eternal poor-me guy who needs a hand out.

Union members have been duped by their leadership into supporting any corrupt, immoral politician or policy as long as they get their own. Who cares about business owners or cities, states or countries going bankrupt or babies getting aborted. Is all about more power and money for the union. That is not social justice. It is not Catholic teaching and it is immoral to support such organizations. Because Catholics union workers have abandoned a moral foundation, the communists have been able to lead them around by the nose, using them as tools to destroy our economy, our government and our Constitution. Catholics need to get out of them or clean them up.

 

[Millie1997]

quote=pnewton;7635713]Since this is a thread on Church teaching, can you show me where the Catholic Church has ever shown joining these unions to be immoral?

The Cathechism of the Catholic Church discusses human associations in Sections 1878-1948.

Yes, we have a right to form unions. No, those unions cannot do anything they please and still please God. Our modern unions are consistently pro-abortion and they support Democratic politicians who are consistently pro-abortion. Unions today set up workers against business as adversaries instead of players on the same team who need to work together. They paint business as the eternal bad guy and workers as the eternal poor-me guy who needs a hand out.

Union members have been duped by their leadership into supporting any corrupt, immoral politician or policy as long as they get their own. Who cares about business owners or cities, states or countries going bankrupt or babies getting aborted. Is all about more power and money for the union. That is not social justice. It is not Catholic teaching and it is immoral to support such organizations. Because Catholics union workers have abandoned a moral foundation, the communists have been able to lead them around by the nose, using them as tools to destroy our economy, our government and our Constitution. Catholics need to get out of them or clean them up.

 

[pnewton]

Our modern unions are consistently pro-abortion and they support Democratic politicians who are consistently pro-abortion. .

I agree with the second point, but not the first. I support a government that is pro-abortion, but that does not make me pro-abortion.

 

[tommcguire]

Unions are not about abortion.

Reading the arguments over the abortion question reminded me of Jesus who said give to Caesar what is Cesar’s. Cesar’s government did not promote the Sermon on the Mount. It required worship of gods, killed people and their families for not paying taxes, and engaged in many ritual sexual practices. Yet Jesus said pay.

Unions are not perfect. They do not always perform according to moral practices, but does that mean unions are to be done away with?

I find it interesting that unions cannot engage in politics, yet those who are presently destroying unions do it using politics. How does a union deal with the power of those who own the means of production or the power to employ? If they are not allowed to engage in politics, which is the power to get things done, what is the source of power to get things done?

 

[Ender]

I find it interesting that unions cannot engage in politics …

They can and do engage in politics; that’s where a huge chunk of their dues money goes. Given their involvement in both local and national elections for decades how is it that you’re not aware of this?

Ender

 

[white_sheep]

In addition to that, unions are not the lawful governmental authority. Jesus said render unto Ceasar. Big difference. You might as well tell me that Jesus said render unto the Girl Scouts as tell me that I have to render unto the unions.

 

[pnewton]

I find it interesting that unions cannot engage in politics, yet those who are presently destroying unions do it using politics. How does a union deal with the power of those who own the means of production or the power to employ? If they are not allowed to engage in politics, which is the power to get things done, what is the source of power to get things done?

I found it interesting too. Well, we should be willing to accept both what we agree with and what we do not agree with. That is the nature of being Catholic. In this day and age, I can really see the wisdom of the Catholic Church in this particular teaching. Yes, it makes it harder on unions, but additional difficulties, even if it translates to less pay, is nothing compared to the evil that politicians are allowing to reign in our country.