Church Teachings on the Death Penalty

  • Thread starter Thread starter Catholic4Jesus
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
No. Defending society is not at all the same as rendering justice.
No, this is not what justice means.
What does “redress the disorder” mean? Here is how the USCCB explained it in 1980:*The third justifying purpose for punishment is retribution or the restoration of the order of justice which has been violated by the action of the criminal. *
That is, redressing the disorder = restoring the order of justice = retribution.
Nothing in 2267 accounts for what was just said in 2266. If retribution is the primary objective of punishment then how can the degree of punishment be determined by the defense of society, which is only a secondary objective?

I understand the inclination to believe 2267 couldn’t be wrong because, after all the pope and Magisterium were responsible for it, but other than saying “it’s in the catechism so it must be right”, there is no argument to support it.

Ender
Is the purpose of the death penalty reducible to the physical defense of society against the criminal or does it include the moral defense and cleansing achieved by administering due punishment? In Scripture and the classical tradition the death penalty was approved primarily on the ground that retribution was needed for the moral health of society. (Dulles, SJ)
So a moral society needs retributive justice. In some circumstances the use of capital punishment might be “the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor” from tainted morals, since the society would demand a just punishment. But on the other side of this, an immoral society might not see justice for what it is, and retribution might negatively affect the common good. Then the death penalty shouldn’t be used.

Do you agree with this?

And I do really think there is a problem if both the Pope and the Magisterium (which exercises the Teaching authority of God) supposedly don’t know the traditional teaching of the Church.
 
So a moral society needs retributive justice.
This is unquestionably true.
In some circumstances the use of capital punishment might be “the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor” from tainted morals, since the society would demand a just punishment.
You’re mixing two different concepts: defense against the criminal and justice, and while a just punishment may also provide protection the two objectives are separate.
But on the other side of this, an immoral society might not see justice for what it is, and retribution might negatively affect the common good. Then the death penalty shouldn’t be used. Do you agree with this?
Yes, and this is what I think was the reasoning behind 2267.
And I do really think there is a problem if both the Pope and the Magisterium (which exercises the Teaching authority of God) supposedly don’t know the traditional teaching of the Church.
Let’s at least recognize that while church doctrine may be protected from error, prudential judgments are not. More to the point, if you want to take the “immoral society might not see justice for what it is” path then first acknowledge the church doctrine sees capital punishment as the just punishment for murder. It would help to know if we’re going to debate the wisdom of a prudential judgment or church doctrine.

Ender
 
first acknowledge the church doctrine sees capital punishment as the just punishment for murder
Where did you get this from? You are implying here that the Church holds that the crime of murder should routinely be punished with capital punishment.That is just not the case.

While the Church does indeed not rule out the use of capital punishment in absolutely all circumstances, it does not hold that capital punishment should be the norm as a just punishment for the crime of murder. It does not hold this at all.

The Church does not endorse or actively support capital punishment. Allowing it in certain (unspecified) circumstances is not the same as holding that it is a just punishment for murder per se.
 
Let’s at least recognize that while church doctrine may be protected from error, prudential judgments are not. More to the point, if you want to take the “immoral society might not see justice for what it is” path then first acknowledge the church doctrine sees capital punishment as the just punishment for murder. It would help to know if we’re going to debate the wisdom of a prudential judgment or church doctrine.

Ender
Capital punishment is a just punishment for murder.

That said, I disagree with the claim that the first part of 2267 is contrary to traditional Catholic teaching.

“Justice without mercy is cruelty.” - St. Thomas Aquinas
 
Where did you get this from?
Genesis 9:6.
You are implying here that the Church holds that the crime of murder should routinely be punished with capital punishment.That is just not the case.
It is not contradictory to believe both as a matter of doctrine that capital punishment should be the normal penalty for murder and to believe as a practical matter that it should not be used. I believe that the current opposition to the use of the death penalty is prudential, not doctrinal. The doctrine has not changed.
The Church does not endorse or actively support capital punishment. Allowing it in certain (unspecified) circumstances is not the same as holding that it is a just punishment for murder per se.
As I said, the doctrine has not changed.Because God willeth and commandeth that malefactors be punished and killed, when they deserve it, that good men may be safe, and live in peace. And for this purpose God hath given the sword into the hands of Princes and Rulers to do justice, in defending the good, and chastising the bad. (Catechism of Robert Bellarmine, approved by Clement XIII)
Ender
 
That said, I disagree with the claim that the first part of 2267 is contrary to traditional Catholic teaching.
It is first of all contrary to the 1992 version of the catechism and it is contrary to the Traditional teaching because nowhere has the church ever included that caveat against the use of capital punishment. You will often find defense and retribution mentioned together (the citation from Bellarmine in the previous post is just such an example) but you will not find any example of retribution being limited by the need for defense. It has always been recognized that defense - along with rehabilitation and deterrence - are valid objectives of punishment but they have always been secondary.

You cannot, nor will anyone else, provide a single statement in 2000 years of church history to support the claim made in 2267.
“Justice without mercy is cruelty.” - St. Thomas Aquinas
  • “this movement of the mind” (viz. mercy) “obeys the reason, when mercy is vouchsafed in such a way that justice is safeguarded, whether we give to the needy or forgive the repentant.” *(Ibid)
    Ender
 
It is first of all contrary to the 1992 version of the catechism and it is contrary to the Traditional teaching because nowhere has the church ever included that caveat against the use of capital punishment. You will often find defense and retribution mentioned together (the citation from Bellarmine in the previous post is just such an example) but you will not find any example of retribution being limited by the need for defense. It has always been recognized that defense - along with rehabilitation and deterrence - are valid objectives of punishment but they have always been secondary.

You cannot, nor will anyone else, provide a single statement in 2000 years of church history to support the claim made in 2267.
Ender
Here is Avery Dulles’ response to Judge Scalia:

At one point John Paul II says that the death penalty should be used only “when it would not be possible otherwise to defend society.” (IOW, Dulles is addressing the claim that the first part of 2267 is contrary to traditional Catholic doctrine) Does this mean mere physical defense against the criminal himself? If so, capital punishment could not be warranted by other goals upheld in the tradition: deterrence of other potential offenders, the potential conversion of the convict, and especially expiation or retribution. But this narrow interpretation would run up against many biblical testimonies. St. Paul clearly teaches that the magistrate does not bear the sword in vain, but is God’s minister “to execute wrath on him that doeth evil” (Romans 13:4, KJV). I agree with Justice Scalia’s exegesis of this passage.

If the Pope were opposing the biblical and traditional doctrine, Catholics would be confronted by a painful dilemma: either to dissent from past teaching or to dissent from the Pope. Many might decide, with Justice Scalia, that the former had more solid warrants.

Like Justice Scalia, I doubt that the older tradition is reversible, but even if it were, I contend any ecclesiastical authority reversing it would have to propose the new doctrine with great emphasis and show why the older position is no longer tenable. In fact, however, the Pope says nothing against the traditional doctrine. (Why would the Pope say something one minute in 2266 and the next contradict it in 2267?) In EV §56 he approvingly quotes the Catechism of the Catholic Church as saying that the primary purpose of the punishment that society inflicts is “to redress the disorder caused by the offense” (CCC §2266). In clarifying the meaning of “redress” the Catechism mentions the expiatory value of punishment.

The Pope goes on to say that society must impose adequate punishment to redress the violation of rights. Punishment, he says, is not adequate unless, among other things, it defends public order. Public order, according to the Catechism, ought not to be construed in a positivist or naturalist manner as mere physical protection but as including conformity with objective justice (CCC §2109). It is at least plausible to think, with Professor Steven Long, that when the Pope speaks of the protection of society as grounds for using the death penalty, he may have more in mind than mere physical defense against the individual criminal. To vindicate the order of justice and to sustain the moral health of society and the security of innocent persons against potential criminals it may be appropriate to punish certain crimes by death. (In saying “may be” I leave open the possibility that under certain circumstances it may not be.)

In my interpretation of the Pope I am consciously using what Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger and others have called a “hermeneutics of continuity.” My desire is to be faithful both to the past and to the present teaching of the Magisterium. Catholic doctrine unquestionably develops, but every authentic development, as Cardinal Newman showed, must grow out of the past and confirm it. To contradict a doctrine is in no way to develop it.
 
Genesis 9:6.
It is not contradictory to believe both as a matter of doctrine that capital punishment should be the normal penalty for murder and to believe as a practical matter that it should not be used. I believe that the current opposition to the use of the death penalty is prudential, not doctrinal. The doctrine has not changed.
As I said, the doctrine has not changed.Because God willeth and commandeth that malefactors be punished and killed, when they deserve it, that good men may be safe, and live in peace. And for this purpose God hath given the sword into the hands of Princes and Rulers to do justice, in defending the good, and chastising the bad. (Catechism of Robert Bellarmine, approved by Clement XIII)
Ender
And whereabouts in the above does it state which offences it is to be used for and whether or not it should be used routinely?

It doesn’t. All it says that in some circumstances capital punishment may be permitted. Anything beyond that is simply your own (and others) interpretation, rather than Church teaching.
 
And whereabouts in the above does it state which offences it is to be used for and whether or not it should be used routinely?
Because God willeth and commandeth that malefactors be punished and killed, when they deserve it… (Catechism of St. Robert Bellarmine)
And where does God willeth and commandeth this? In this passage in Genesis:
*“Whosoever shall shed man’s blood, his blood shall be shed.” These words cannot utter a prophecy, since a prophecy of this sort would often be false, but a decree and a precept. *(Treatise on Civil Government, Bellarmine)
All it says that in some circumstances capital punishment may be permitted. Anything beyond that is simply your own (and others) interpretation, rather than Church teaching.
The basis for the church’s position is Gen 9:6, the passage Bellarmine cited above. Whatever argument may be made against the use of capital punishment for other crimes there is no doubt about its applicability to the crime of murder. Nor was Bellarmine alone in his position as I have previously cited two other Doctors of the Church saying the same thing. This is the sense of the phrase in the Catechism of Trent that says capital punishment*“is** an act of paramount obedience** to this Commandment which prohibits murder.”

*It is far easier to find support for my contention about the use of capital punishment than for you to find support for the assertion in 2267 about the Traditional teaching of the church.

Ender
 
As a conservative, I long advocated use of the death penalty (FULL DISCLOSURE: I am a citizen of the great State of Texas. Pro-death penalty virtually begins in kindergarten). As a lawyer (although not a criminal lawyer, either prosecution or defense), I developed a much more realistically cynical view of the justice system. As a convert to Christ’s Church, I began to feel the same compassion for the most heinous criminals as I feel for the innocent child in the mother’s womb. I know the two are distinguishable, but this is just my personal opinion, ok? No need to attack me on this point.

I am now a “bad conservative” because I do not personally support the death penalty. In my home county of Dallas, several men have been released from years of incarceration as a result of DNA testing not available at the time of conviction. You have all seen those stories. Our justice system is the best there is, but it is not perfect. Absent perfection, which none of us possess, I do not believe the state should take the life of one whom God created. Yes, years of incarceration cost taxpayers. Yes, many in prison do not reform internally, as recidivist rates demonstrate. On the other hand, there are souls that come to Christ after decades behind bars. Anyway, I suppose you all get my point, so I will cease and desist! I go with the CCC, and that means no death penalty for me to support. God bless!
 
A vengeance based justice system is wrong - our Lord and savior himself was wrongly accused and executed - and there are people in the system that are innocent - we just had one recently although he was not on death row - the football player who was wrongly convicted of rape. The court system is not about right or wrong but about what can be proven - the Justice system has too many flaws to take this step. A poor person would not get proper representation because they cannot afford a good lawyer and has to rely on a inexperienced public defender - you don’t get to choose being poor.Some rich people have got away with murder because they could afford a premium law team - OJ for one.I’m against the death penalty and would vote against it - I will not have innocent blood on my hands nor do I have a deep desire for vengeance. I don’t have to agree with the church on this issue - its not a mortal sin to disagree on this issue - I can have a personal opinion on this.
 
Anybody ever read “The Merchant of Venice?”

The merchant was owed a pound of flesh, and justice demanded it.

And Portia says in one of the most memorable soliloquies ever written:
The quality of mercy is not strain’d,
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath: it is twice blest;
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes:
'Tis mightiest in the mightiest: it becomes
The throned monarch better than his crown;
His sceptre shows the force of temporal power,
The attribute to awe and majesty,
Wherein doth sit the dread and fear of kings;
But mercy is above this sceptred sway;
It is enthroned in the hearts of kings,
It is an attribute to God himself;
And earthly power doth then show likest God’s
When mercy seasons justice. Therefore, Jew,
Though justice be thy plea, consider this,
That, in the course of justice, none of us
Should see salvation: we do pray for mercy;
And that same prayer doth teach us all to render
The deeds of mercy. I have spoke thus much
To mitigate the justice of thy plea;
Which if thou follow, this strict court of Venice
Must needs give sentence 'gainst the merchant there.
BTW did Shylock get his pound of flesh?

Why not, even though justice demanded it?
Because the price was too high. (Why? Can you remember?)

I think Shakespeare had a lot of insight to share with this debate.
Ender is right - but he is also wrong.
Church teaching has not changed, but it has changed, though the hermeneutic of continuity remains
The price for murder is due, it is just, but it is too high, and justice is not served in a western country when the death penalty is used.
 
As a conservative, I long advocated use of the death penalty (FULL DISCLOSURE: I am a citizen of the great State of Texas. Pro-death penalty virtually begins in kindergarten). As a lawyer (although not a criminal lawyer, either prosecution or defense), I developed a much more realistically cynical view of the justice system. As a convert to Christ’s Church, I began to feel the same compassion for the most heinous criminals as I feel for the innocent child in the mother’s womb. I know the two are distinguishable, but this is just my personal opinion, ok? No need to attack me on this point.
Just remember that compassion should be applied to the victims before it is applied to the monsters who make victims
Absent perfection, which none of us possess, I do not believe the state should take the life of one whom God created.
Applying religion to politics is a terrible idea, the Inquisition, Henry VIII, and Sharia Law make that clear.
Yes, years of incarceration cost taxpayers. Yes, many in prison do not reform internally, as recidivist rates demonstrate. On the other hand, there are souls that come to Christ after decades behind bars.
If we are judged after death and have some sort of reward or punishment, and I was condemned to die, that would give me a good incentive to repent. Sitting in a jail cell for years would nothing.
 
Applying religion to politics is a terrible idea, the Inquisition, Henry VIII, and Sharia Law make that clear.
We’re debating within the context of Catholic teaching , so there’s no need to advocate the heresy of secularism. BTW, godless systems like the Soviet Union and Red China commited greater evils than were commited by any religious government. Also, we’re talking about Catholic teaching, not false religious ideas like Anglicanism and Islam, so two of your references are Red Herrings.
 
Just remember that compassion should be applied to the victims before it is applied to the monsters who make victims
And how exactly is the action of the state executing a criminal displaying compassion to the victim? It’s not even as if the action is carried out as a result of the wishes of the victim. The decision to execute has got nothing whatsoever to do with a display of compassion for the victim.
If we are judged after death and have some sort of reward or punishment, and I was condemned to die, that would give me a good incentive to repent. Sitting in a jail cell for years would nothing.
And in this case what would be your motivation for repentance? Repenting motivated by a desire to save your own bacon is not a true repentance. It would be a phony repentance, it would be worthless.

However, years of reflection on your actions might result in your genuinely coming to see the error of your ways and feel genuine repentence and sorrow (not in order to save your own skin) but for the harm that your actions have caused others.
 
We’re debating within the context of Catholic teaching , so there’s no need to advocate the heresy of secularism. BTW, godless systems like the Soviet Union and Red China commited greater evils than were commited by any religious government.
Those governments commit greater evils because they had access to technology.
Also, we’re talking about Catholic teaching, not false religious ideas like Anglicanism and Islam, so two of your references are Red Herrings.
My point is that applying religion to politics is a bad idea no matter whose religion you are talking about.
And how exactly is the action of the state executing a criminal displaying compassion to the victim? It’s not even as if the action is carried out as a result of the wishes of the victim. The decision to execute has got nothing whatsoever to do with a display of compassion for the victim.
I didn’t claim that executing a murderer displayed compassion toward the victim. Good job though, destroying that strawman.
And in this case what would be your motivation for repentance? Repenting motivated by a desire to save your own bacon is not a true repentance. It would be a phony repentance, it would be worthless.
Your Church talks about imperfect contrition and perhaps you should read what Thomas Aquinas had to say on that subject.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top