Church to which the authors of scripture belonged...?

[joe370]

Your question doesn’t make sense. How can you belong to something that did not yet exist?

So, the 12 apostles did not belong to Jesus’ church, which started on Pentecost?

When, in your opinion did Jesus’ church come into existence?

 

[Izdaari]

So, the 12 apostles did not belong to Jesus’ church, which started on Pentecost?

When, in your opinion did Jesus’ church come into existence?

You already have my answer to that one: none of the above. They belonged to the universal Christian church, which we agree came into existence on Pentecost, and which you identify with the Catholic Church, but which non-Catholics do not, at least not exclusively.

The universal church did after a few centuries evolve into the Catholic Church, and later into Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox, and the Orthodox reasons for the schism strike me as entirely valid. So too do the reasons for the Reformation later. So IMHO the Catholic Church is indeed part of the universal Christian church, to which the Apostles belonged, but the other major Christian traditions are just as much so.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

Well, of course except for John the Baptist, who was a Baptist. It says so right in the Bible.

That’s very interesting. You said that none of the Christian churches and ecclesial communities existed at the first Pentecost. How, then, can there be even one Baptist before the first Pentecost. Do you have a reference for that: book, chapter, verse(s), and scripture version?

 

[joe370]

You already have my answer to that one: none of the above. They belonged to the universal Christian church, which we agree came into existence on Pentecost, and which you identify with the Catholic Church, but which non-Catholics do not, at least not exclusively.

The universal church did after a few centuries evolve into the Catholic Church,

 

[Izdaari]

That’s very interesting. You said that none of the Christian churches and ecclesial communities existed at the first Pentecost. How, then, can there be even one Baptist before the first Pentecost. Do you have a reference for that: book, chapter, verse(s), and scripture version?

That was a joke. I thought the smilie would be enough of a clue.

 

[Izdaari]

If Jesus’ church eventually evolved into the CC, Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox church and all of the Protestant churches, then who officially started the supposed man-made Catholic Church, and specifically when did he establish it?

I didn’t go so far as to claim any of those church traditions, including the CC, are man-made. I believe in theistic evolution, at least as a possibility. That is, I don’t know for sure that TE is how we all got here, but I think it’s either that or OEC. And if life could be subject to TE, maybe churches can too. If it evolved, with or without God’s guidance, than maybe no one person started it, but it kinda just gradually happened.

We can say that Jesus started all the Christian churches, since they’re for and about Him. We can say that Peter did, since as another poster pointed out, he gave the sermon that won 2k or so converts on that first Pentecost. (Wow, that boy could preach!). But the Patriarch of Alexandria, Pope Heracleus (232–49 AD), seems to have been the first person called Pope. The first Bishop of Rome to be called that may have been Pope Marcellinus (d. 304 AD)… or it may have been, according to other sources, Pope John I (523–6 AD). So far as I can tell, no one person “officially” founded the CC at any specific time, but many contributed over the course of centuries.

 

[joe370]

Izdaari;8625354]I didn’t go so far as to claim any of those church traditions, including the CC, are man-made. I believe in theistic evolution, at least as a possibility.

So the CC, albeit evolved, might possibly be the church established by Jesus, in your opinion?

We can say that Jesus started all the Christian churches, since they’re for and about Him

I suppose that is one way of looking at it.

 

[joe370]

Izdaari, in your estimation did the following Christians all belong to the same Church? If so then is that church, to which they belonged, the present day catholic church?

Apostle John (1st century)

Apostle Peter (1st century)

Clement I (80 AD)

Ignatius of Antioch (50 - 117)

Hegesippus 180 AD

Irenaeus 180 AD

Polycarp, (69 - 155)

Tertullian (160 - 220 AD)

Tatian the Assyrian (120–180)

Clement of Alexandria (150 - 215)

Irenaeus (2nd century)

Theophilus, Patriarch of Antioch (2nd century)

Justin Martyr (103–165)

Hippolytus of Rome (170 – 235)

Cyprian of Carthage (250 AD)

Cyprian bishop of Carthage (3rd century)

Jerome (4th century)

Augustine of Hippo (4th century)

 

[CopticChristian]

Yes, Jesus said He would be with His church always. But it does not follow from that statement that it already existed at the time He was speaking. IMO, the Twelve were followers of Christ, but not yet members of any established church.

Paul says that the Church is the mystery hidden for all ages by which Gentiles would be fellow heirs with the Jews. If true, then there is an OT Church…

Ekklesia is used many times throughout the LXX to translate the Hebrew word qahal (or kahal). Recall that the LXX is using Greek to translate the Old Testament, the same Greek as used in the New Testament. What we end up with is an entire Bible written in Greek.

Qahal is translated into English as multitude, company, congregation, and assembly. Notice that two of the four definitions of qahal are identical to those of ekklesia.

Now consider the following passages, paying special attention to how the words multitude, company, congregation and assembly are used:

Genesis 48:4
And said unto me, Behold, I will make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, and I will make of thee a multitude of people; and will give this land to thy seed after thee for an everlasting possession.

Exodus 16:3
And the children of Israel said unto them, Would to God we had died by the hand of the LORD in the land of Egypt, when we sat by the flesh pots, and when we did eat bread to the full; for ye have brought us forth into this wilderness, to kill this whole assembly with hunger.

Numbers 14:5
Then Moses and Aaron fell on their faces before all the assembly of the congregation of the children of Israel.

Deuteronomy 31:30
And Moses spake in the ears of all the congregation of Israel the words of this song, until they were ended.

1 Samuel 17:47
And all this assembly shall know that the LORD saveth not with sword and spear: for the battle is the Lord’s, and he will give you into our hands.

Job 30:28
I went mourning without the sun: I stood up, and I cried in the congregation.

Psalms 22:22
I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.

Psalms 149:1
Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise in the congregation of saints.

Jeremiah 50:9
For, lo, I will raise and cause to come up against Babylon an assembly of great nations from the north country: and they shall set themselves in array against her; from thence she shall be taken: their arrows shall be as of a mighty expert man; none shall return in vain.

But just because the Church took Israel by surprise doesn’t mean they shouldn’t have expected it. In Amos 3:7 the Lord promised, “Surely the Sovereign Lord does nothing without revealing His plan to His servants the prophets.”

That is why Paul spent so much time explaining the OT and the Mystery of the Church. The Church was established and the Apostles were in it. If people were alive the Church was established by God and with it His people.

 

[Izdaari]

So the CC, albeit evolved, might possibly be the church established by Jesus, in your opinion?

Yes, I think that’s a distinct possibility. Just because something evolved doesn’t mean God didn’t have a hand in its evolution. If I became convinced that the CC was in the fact the church Jesus meant to establish, and not just part of it, I would of course have to join.

 

[Izdaari]

Izdaari, in your estimation did the following Christians all belong to the same Church? If so then is that church, to which they belonged, the present day catholic church?

Apostle John (1st century)

Apostle Peter (1st century)

Clement I (80 AD)

Ignatius of Antioch (50 - 117)

Hegesippus 180 AD

Irenaeus 180 AD

Polycarp, (69 - 155)

Tertullian (160 - 220 AD)

Tatian the Assyrian (120–180)

Clement of Alexandria (150 - 215)

Irenaeus (2nd century)

Theophilus, Patriarch of Antioch (2nd century)

Justin Martyr (103–165)

Hippolytus of Rome (170 – 235)

Cyprian of Carthage (250 AD)

Cyprian bishop of Carthage (3rd century)

Jerome (4th century)

Augustine of Hippo (4th century)

Interesting question. I know some of those people but by no means all of them. I’ll have to do a little research and get back to you, tomorrow if all goes well.

 

[Izdaari]

Paul says that the Church is the mystery hidden for all ages by which Gentiles would be fellow heirs with the Jews. If true, then there is an OT Church…

Ekklesia is used many times throughout the LXX to translate the Hebrew word qahal (or kahal). Recall that the LXX is using Greek to translate the Old Testament, the same Greek as used in the New Testament. What we end up with is an entire Bible written in Greek.

Qahal is translated into English as multitude, company, congregation, and assembly. Notice that two of the four definitions of qahal are identical to those of ekklesia.

Now consider the following passages, paying special attention to how the words multitude, company, congregation and assembly are used:

But just because the Church took Israel by surprise doesn’t mean they shouldn’t have expected it. In Amos 3:7 the Lord promised, “Surely the Sovereign Lord does nothing without revealing His plan to His servants the prophets.”

That is why Paul spent so much time explaining the OT and the Mystery of the Church. The Church was established and the Apostles were in it. If people were alive the Church was established by God and with it His people.

Very interesting, something to ponder, thank you.

 

[joe370]

Yes, I think that’s a distinct possibility. Just because something evolved doesn’t mean God didn’t have a hand in its evolution. If I became convinced that the CC was in the fact the church Jesus meant to establish, and not just part of it, I would of course have to join.

 

[pinay]

You already have my answer to that one: none of the above. They belonged to the universal Christian church, which we agree came into existence on Pentecost, and which you identify with the Catholic Church, but which non-Catholics do not, at least not exclusively.

The universal church did after a few centuries evolve into the Catholic Church, and later into Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox, and the Orthodox reasons for the schism strike me as entirely valid. So too do the reasons for the Reformation later. So IMHO the Catholic Church is indeed part of the universal Christian church, to which the Apostles belonged, but the other major Christian traditions are just as much so.

You are not correct. The Universal Christian Church as you call it started in the Garden of Eden. (If you’re LDS, it started when God organized the spirits of heaven and assigned a Savior which happened before Adam started his mortal existence).

What, you don’t believe Moses was Christian?

 

[zaffiroborant]

You are not correct. The Universal Christian Church as you call it started in the Garden of Eden. (If you’re LDS, it started when God organized the spirits of heaven and assigned a Savior which happened before Adam started his mortal existence).

What, you don’t believe Moses was Christian?

No you are incorrect, the "Universal (synonymous with catholic) started at Pentecost.

 

[Conor7]

That’s very interesting. You said that none of the Christian churches and ecclesial communities existed at the first Pentecost. How, then, can there be even one Baptist before the first Pentecost. Do you have a reference for that: book, chapter, verse(s), and scripture version?

HAHA! I, for one, thought that Izdaari’s joke was hilarious! Well, of course except for John the Baptist, who was a Baptist. It says so right in the Bible.

Izdaari, that is clever. And, it does of course say in the Bible that John the Baptist was a Baptist!

I do absolutely agree with you, Izdaari. The Roman Catholic Church did not exist on the day of Pentecost, therefore, the 12 Apostles were not Roman Catholic. In fact, I would dare say, at that point they merely a extraordinarily small sect of heretical Jews.

 

[graceandglory]

And yet, somehow they managed to call a Council (Acts 15) and send envoys and missionaries around the world, as well as assembling together for the prayers and the breaking of the bread (Holy Mass), ordain Deacons (Acts 7), and both collect and distribute alms.

If my recollection is correct, that would be the Catholic Church at Jerusalem.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

HAHA! I, for one, thought that Izdaari’s joke was hilarious! Well, of course except for John the Baptist, who was a Baptist. It says so right in the Bible.

Izdaari, that is clever. And, it does of course say in the Bible that John the Baptist was a Baptist!

I do absolutely agree with you, Izdaari. The Roman Catholic Church did not exist on the day of Pentecost, therefore, the 12 Apostles were not Roman Catholic. In fact, I would dare say, at that point they merely a extraordinarily small sect of heretical Jews.

The Catholic Church (no adjective required) came in to existence on Pentecost.

 

[jmcrae]

I do absolutely agree with you, Izdaari. The Roman Catholic Church did not exist on the day of Pentecost, therefore, the 12 Apostles were not Roman Catholic. In fact, I would dare say, at that point they merely a extraordinarily small sect of heretical Jews.

While they weren’t Roman Catholic yet, all of their followers became “Katholikos” when Jesus appointed them to go to the “Katholikos” (the whole world) teaching them and baptizing them - that happened fifty days before Pentecost.

 

[stewstew03]

It’s your belief that the church founded by Jesus is comprised of all churches, regardless of denomination. I don’t see how, but OK.

Which of the following churches, in your opinion, did the authors of the NT belong:

Eastern Orthodox Church

Oriental Orthodox Church

Presbyterian Church

Lutheran Church

Or one of the other Protestant Churches

Perhaps Luther too could have tried a little harder to work with the CC? Of course I wasn’t there so I cannot be certain as to what happened.

Everyone in the South knows that they belonged to the First Baptist Church of…[fill in the blank].