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Xantippe
Guest
tafan,
That’s very sweet.
That’s very sweet.
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YADA
Guest
Yes - it was probably called Engaged Encounter - we are talking weddings and marriage plans - hence my thinking about marriage - and this was required before the wedding …
can I plead mercy - it was 2003 … so over a decade to remember the name of the retreat … 
C
Corki
Guest
There’s a big difference between a wedding in Church, with a reserved time and any of those other Sacraments. For one thing, for most of them, the person receiving the Sacrament is not the one in charge of the rite, the location, the music, etc.
As long as the couple has the ability to have a simpler wedding without paying, there is no problem. It’s simply an option. Option A: have a quiet ceremony during or right after a regular Mass (this is what most couples do when convalidating BTW) or Option B: have a private ceremony with a reserved time, exclusive use of the Church facilities and control over the environment (music, decorations, readers, etc.) Option A: no cost. Option B: cost.
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white_sheep
Guest
When do most weddings happen?
Who is in charge of the rite, the location, and the music as it pertains to weddings?
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Corki
Guest
Most weddings in the US happen on Saturday afternoons, in my experience. Most weddings in the town where we lived in South America were during the Saturday evening Mass.
As for the rite, etc., once it’s almost always the bride and her parents who are in charge of those choices. They are not an unlimited set of choices. Limits and options are given according to the Church’s allowances. The music is usually decided between the bride and the music director, again within the choices allowed by the Church.
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tafan
Guest
Option b) musicians: deserve to be compensated for their time, this is typically done as a direct payment, not through the parish
Readers: costs the parish nothing when wedding has their own readers
Reserved time: again, no cost to parish, as wedding times are either fixed or scheduled around other church events. And it is one if the purposes of having a church building anyway (ie a sacrament)
Decorations: I know if no parish that provides any decorations. And it is always required that the wedding party/family arrange for both decorating and removing them. A cleanup fee as a optional service provided seems appropriate
So nothing in this list justifies a fee for a wedding.
Recently went through the whole wedding ordeal with a family member and visited with several cstholic parishes on this diocese. None of them charged any fee for the church nor for wedding preparation ( except the diocese pre-Cana weekend retreat). A few years back our bishop sent out a letter to all pastors ( I was on finance committee so I saw it) specifically prohibiting any wedding fees. I was glad to see that it was being closely followed.
Having been heavily involved ( as a business manager) in a poor parishes financial management ( with lots of weddings) , I can tell you there are almost zero direct costs associated with a parish providing weddings.
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Sarabande
Guest
As a liturgical musician, I am very aware of the costs and the various reasons for why churches have fees for use of the church for this sacrament and I’m actually not against it because of what I’ve been told from finance committees… especially when it helps to keep a parish survive and also the amount of money it does cost to heat and cool and light an old building just for those few hours that it’s open for one wedding. But it does bring up the question as to why parishes don’t have set fees for use of the church for baptisms, especially when they don’t take place during a regularly scheduled mass. A few of the parishes I work in schedule baptisms on Saturdays (like you would for a wedding.) For example, my daughter’s baptism was scheduled on a Saturday afternoon during a time usually reserved for a wedding, but since none was scheduled, we were allowed to have the baptism then. Had this been a wedding, we would have been asked to pay a fee for $800. Since it was a baptism, we weren’t charged anything and my husband and I gave a donation to the parish which we would have been able to afford. The amount of time we were in the church building was about equal to a wedding.
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Corki
Guest
There are costs incurred so there is nothing **wrong **with asking the bride and groom to help off-set those costs. If a diocese wants to have a policy that there will be no fees, that’s great. Some diocese don’t charge tuition for Catholic schools either. But that doesn’t mean there is anything **wrong **with those who do.
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Corki
Guest
Every parish I have been associated with has Baptisms either during or directly after a regular Mass. My current parish does them on Saturdays, right after the Sat. morning Mass.
There are two reasons why there might not be fees for Baptism but are fees for weddings. First, in my experience, parents aren’'t given any choice as to when the Baptism will be held. It’s a regularly scheduled Church service, even if it’s not a Mass. It’s not unusual to see in a parish bulletin that Baptisms are the first and third weekend of every month or something similar.
The other reason is practicality. The parish, and the Church as a whole, teaches that there is a serious reason to baptize your children as soon as possible after they are born. A fee, even if there were costs incurred, might deter parents from Baptizing their children at the earliest opportunity. A wedding is different. There is no urgent need to have a wedding as soon as possible. In fact, most weddings are planned well in advance and have a budget. So it is reasonable to ask that costs for the Church be included in that budgeting process.
Parishes are always willing to work with a couple who might have a financial problem paying the fee. But if a couple is throwing a reception for 100+ people, showing up to the Church in a limo, spending hundreds of dollars on flowers and then balks at a fee for the Church, something is seriously wrong.
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Sarabande
Guest
I understand this. When you are not given a choice, I can see not forcing parents to pay for it. In our experience and at the other parishes where I work, parents are given a choice. For instance, each time I called about getting our children baptised, the priest asked us what was a good date and time and he’d just check the calendar to see if the date and time was available. That said, I’ve attended baptisms where it was sort of like how you described. They were a bit like mass baptisms. Many families with their babies show up on a specific date and are done practically at the same time, except when the pour the water on the babies’ heads.
I totally understand this as well. I actually don’t have anything against a fee for weddings, most of the time. I understand most of the reasons. I never understood why families and couples balk at the church fee or the musicians fee, for that matter. They cry poor and then you find out that they are having their reception at the Ritz Carlton or another similar place or that they’ve spent $5000 on flowers, etc. Almost every time a couple cries poor to me, I find out where they were putting their money towards and then I feel like a fool for giving them a break. The only time I will now give a break is if the priest or secretary tells me that the couple truly has a financial problem.
That all said, on the other end of the spectrum, I have worked with couples who did know about asking to have a simple ceremony done during a regularly scheduled mass (they are in the minority) because of their budget and truly weren’t having an expensive wedding, but were turned down and told they had to get married during the times allotted for weddings, which included the fee. The only thing I can think of is that they are afraid that guests would take up most of the pews and push the parishioners out? Perhaps that is why many parishes do not allow wedding ceremonies during a regular mass or just don’t give it as an option?
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Xantippe
Guest
Bear in mind that a wedding Mass isn’t really private. Anybody who wants to can show up at a wedding Mass. There is nobody at the door checking a guest list.
There really is not a huge difference between a wedding and other major sacraments or funerals (and funerals run into very similar issues with trouble for the office, choice of music, not to mention the much greater time pressure). The only major difference is that with weddings there may be decorations (which it is totally OK for the parish to ask to be cleaned up afterward or to be compensated for). The fact that a lot of people turn up for a sacrament is not a bad thing and should not be treated as an inconvenience or somehow peripheral to the normal church functions–it’s a good thing, and it’s what the church is for.
I personally spent rather more on my daughter’s First Communion dress than I did on my wedding dress, and my daughter had a nicer dress. My husband believes, quite rightly, that weddings should not be the only sacrament celebrated with hoopla. He likes our kids’ baptisms and First Communions to be just as festive, if not more so.
I have participated in a number of threads on Catholic Answers where I and other people were reassuring brides that they can afford a church wedding, and it doesn’t need to be expensive, and it’s very disheartening to see so much push back in the other direction. We shouldn’t be thinking so much about the expensive church weddings (which more often than not, the families cannot actually afford) and about how to wring money out of those families–we should be thinking about all the other couples who go off to the courthouse because they believe that they cannot afford to be married in a church, but who would be much better off if they had had marriage prep and an actual church wedding. Asking for some sort of financial consideration is not something that comes easy to a lot of people. Often, the most in need are the least likely to ask for help. It’s no good pointing to the policy if the posted price scares couples away.
tafan said:
“A few years back our bishop sent out a letter to all pastors ( I was on finance committee so I saw it) specifically prohibiting any wedding fees. I was glad to see that it was being closely followed.”
That’s very good.
There really is not a huge difference between a wedding and other major sacraments or funerals (and funerals run into very similar issues with trouble for the office, choice of music, not to mention the much greater time pressure). The only major difference is that with weddings there may be decorations (which it is totally OK for the parish to ask to be cleaned up afterward or to be compensated for). The fact that a lot of people turn up for a sacrament is not a bad thing and should not be treated as an inconvenience or somehow peripheral to the normal church functions–it’s a good thing, and it’s what the church is for.
I personally spent rather more on my daughter’s First Communion dress than I did on my wedding dress, and my daughter had a nicer dress. My husband believes, quite rightly, that weddings should not be the only sacrament celebrated with hoopla. He likes our kids’ baptisms and First Communions to be just as festive, if not more so.
I have participated in a number of threads on Catholic Answers where I and other people were reassuring brides that they can afford a church wedding, and it doesn’t need to be expensive, and it’s very disheartening to see so much push back in the other direction. We shouldn’t be thinking so much about the expensive church weddings (which more often than not, the families cannot actually afford) and about how to wring money out of those families–we should be thinking about all the other couples who go off to the courthouse because they believe that they cannot afford to be married in a church, but who would be much better off if they had had marriage prep and an actual church wedding. Asking for some sort of financial consideration is not something that comes easy to a lot of people. Often, the most in need are the least likely to ask for help. It’s no good pointing to the policy if the posted price scares couples away.
tafan said:
“A few years back our bishop sent out a letter to all pastors ( I was on finance committee so I saw it) specifically prohibiting any wedding fees. I was glad to see that it was being closely followed.”
That’s very good.
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white_sheep
Guest
You usually don’t have a choice about when your wedding will be either. Some parishes may offer one, ours didn’t. Weddings are regularly scheduled as well. Same day and time usually. They don’t always have one, but they don’t always have baptisms either. Growing up the church that had confessions did most of the weddings. Both were on Saturday at 4:00. If you showed up and there were people there in suits you knew to just go back home.
There is also a serious reason to get married. In fact there can be lots of serious reasons. A fee might deter couples from marrying, either altogether or for a time when they ought to be married. All births are planned at least 9 months in advance and have a budget.
None of which is really anyone’s business and has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not they should be charging you a fee.
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Corki
Guest
IMHO, a couple who has invited so many people to their wedding that there’s no room for regular parishioners isn’t going to be one of the couples who can’t afford to have a private wedding time.
FWIW, when I lived for a year in South America, it was very common for weddings to be held during one of the Saturday evening Masses. If you went to that Mass and were not part of the wedding, you knew you would be standing on the patio for Mass.
Of course, there were people on the patio at EVERY Mass but it was usually the late-comers. But it didn’t bother anyone to give the wedding party first “dibs” at seats in the Church. Weddings were much more community affairs there.
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Rau
Guest
To the extent that the parish needs to raise revenue (ie. beyond cover incremental costs), placing a levy on those seeking a Sacrament is the wrong way to go about it. Well done to the Bishop that outlawed it.
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white_sheep
Guest
I quoted to continue your thought, not disagree with you. FYI.
I have a big Catholic family. If a ways from home, maybe only 20-30 people will show up for a baptism, but a few years ago we did a triple baptism at home and the place was standing room only. For weddings you could multiply that times 5 easy. If one of us gets married at home there will be 250-500 people there. I have seen the church packed with standing room only many times for a wedding at the wedding time when few, if any, random people came just for mass. How’s that going to work on a Sunday with an in-mass wedding? It ain’t.
That’s a GOOD thing. That’s how it is SUPPOSED to be. You shouldn’t be penalized for it.
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white_sheep
Guest
We have cars here, don’t know how it is where you are. Down there I’m sure people stay much closer to home and are probably already going to that church anyway, so it’ll work just fine. Here, however, people have spread out. They generally go to a different parish, but that doesn’t mean they are so distantly related or are merely acquaintances and won’t be expected to be invited to your wedding. Or that they won’t be upset if they aren’t. If every time there is a wedding there are as many people just standing outside as there are inside people will stop coming to weddings. Maybe that’s what you want, but I think that is decidedly a bad thing.FWIW, when I lived for a year in South America, it was very common for weddings to be held during one of the Saturday evening Masses. If you went to that Mass and were not part of the wedding, you knew you would be standing on the patio for Mass.
Y’all keep making all these absurd statements. There’s no connection between the two, and you still haven’t proven that just because someone has money means that it is ok to make them pay for sacraments. Maybe they just didn’t contracept themselves out of existence. Maybe they behave as the Church says we should and live in community with one another and are expected to invite all their family. I’m just finding this individualist concept quite difficult to reconcile with Church teaching. These are the same people who are going to hold the couple to account if they start misbehaving. It helps if they were there at the wedding to begin with.
Just going out from my great grandparents it isn’t hard to get up to 600 people. If your fiance’s side is the same, that’s 1200 people. That’s only going out to second cousins. We have a family get together every year that is bigger than that. I know a lot of my second and third cousins, and even if they aren’t particularly close to me, their parents may be with my parents and I am expected to invite them.
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Sarabande
Guest
I think that might be assuming too much without really knowing the background of the couple. People can still have many guests and still have a very inexpensive wedding. I sang for a wedding once where there were close to 200 guests, but the reception was done like a pot-luck dinner at a fire hall, where most of the family on either side brought something. The bride’s dress was her grandmother’s. An aunt made the cake, etc. etc. In other words, it was a very modestly spent wedding. Actually, it was one of the couples who wanted to have the wedding during a regularly scheduled mass, but was not permitted. The reason they were given was because the church only did weddings on Saturdays at two different times and they would have to pay the fee.
I don’t know if that was fair. If they were not given an option with when to have a wedding, then it would be like how parents are not given an option for having their child baptised and thus not charged a fee. I do think
It’s a different story when the couple flaunts about the $200/per person plates they are spending for their 300 guests at a venue that cost $10,000 to rent, with a $5,000 gown, $3,000 for flowers, etc. and then starts to cry poor and say they have a very small budget for a wedding and can’t afford the $150-$200 it costs to pay the organist or the cantor and can you give it to them for $75.
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Sarabande
Guest
Yes, for my kids’ baptisms we had at least 100 people, mostly family. For our wedding we had about 160, which was also mostly family, so it wasn’t much less than our guest list for the wedding. lol!
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Sarabande
Guest
I understand that line of thought and I wouldn’t see a problem if that occurred in my diocese. That said, many of the parishes I was thinking of when I made that comment were parishes of historical and geographical importance to the Church and diocese and needs to be kept open. Only problem is that the congregations are small and/or not well-off, but love their parishes and try to do what they can to keep it going. People are not very free with donations anymore.
Most of the weddings are of non-parishioners… couples who went “church shopping” wanting a beautiful “backdrop” for their wedding more so than anything else, many of whom don’t actually attend mass regularly, let alone attend mass at that particular parish. Maybe it still wouldn’t be considered right or fair, but if the cost of the use of the church covers the amount that is spent to cool/heat/light the place during the 3 or so hours it is open to prepare for that particular wedding mass for non-parishioners, as well as a little more (which would be like a donation you would make if you were having your child baptised there) to help the parish stay open for those parishioners who might have a difficult time getting to another parish, I don’t see it as a bad thing.
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manningv
Guest
I just called my archdiocese where we are parishioners and it costs $2,000! $1,500 for the church, $400 for the coordinator, and $100 to book the date that is not refundable. Mindyou, this does not include precana or priest fees or cantor/organist fees if we want a mass. It’s just freakin ridiculous. I’m a med student and my fiancé is also a student, and our parents have no money. If they don’t waive or reduce some fees we will have to wait until I’m a resident with some sort of an income to be able to afford this.
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