Churches closed - Holy Mass request

[Jaaanosik]

Jaaanosik:

f our conscience tells us to attend the Holy Mass, to worship God in the most excellent way and this option is taken away from us then what?

We practise humility and abide by what our Archbishop says.

It is a slippery slope to go against conscience.
No, … one is NOT supposed to go against one’s well formed conscience. That’s the Church’s teaching.
The tricky part is when we recognize we have a well formed conscience.

An extreme example, if a bishop tells one to kill someone. What happens? Would one abide?

 

[Jaaanosik]

Tis_Bearself:

Mass with the proper precautions does not seem to be spreading it.

That is the vital factor, though. Because of distancing our parish can only have 60 present, instead of 300. What if all 300 felt their conscience meant they had to attend Mass or else their soul was in danger?
We have been told in our parish to practise charity as well as commonsense, and not hog places every Mass but either not go at all but follow on Yotube,. or else give others a chance by limiting attendance to once a month or so.

Then the priest should have 5 Holy Masses.

 

[Jaaanosik]

…
Seems to me that a little inconvenience now is a lot better than having to close lots of parishes because there are no more people left.

What little inconvenience now.
People go shopping, more dangerous than a mass done with good protective measures.
This argument is flawed.
This inconvenience is taking away free will and freedom of religion from people.
We have freedom of religion protected by Bill of Rights.
One option is to worship God by attending the Holy Mass.
When this option is taken away from us we cannot exercise our free will.

Many early christian martyrs died for this.
Bishops are closing churches?
That’s an insult to the martyrs.

 

[Jaaanosik]

…
That said,we have had many outbreaks from “house parties” and from gatherings of others who feel that the requirements are “too restrictive”. One local non-denominational Church had a large outbreak due to them not following the recommended guidelines. Many people got sick and they lost a couple of their older members. All because the had a “right to worship”.
…

I am sorry to hear that.
Nevertheless, I am saying everybody has a free will and can decide what is right for him/her.

 

[Jaaanosik]

CilladeRoma:

That said,we have had many outbreaks from “house parties”

Yes, the explosion of cases in my area has allegedly been from college students having house parties. I’ve also noticed a lot of local restaurants doing a brisk business and not all of them had outdoor seating, plus people are exempted by law here from wearing masks while sitting at restaurant tables. We have several blocks of restaurant row, that’s a lot of maskless people yakking it up for hours daily and nightly. We were told this was necessary to keep the restaurants in business. I don’t eat in the restaurants. I do order takeout from them a few times a week, usually it’s left on my doorstep. I also go to the convenience store regularly and it already had a COVID outbreak and was on reduced hours for days.

They don’t dare mess with our Masses. Like you I have not heard of any incident of COVID at any of our several area parishes.

The same here, we followed the rules for reduced Holy Masses, no outbreaks as far as I know and yet churches got closed.
… because covid is on the rise in our city.

 

[commenter]

look at the larger context.

Where I live, the media has a constant drumbeat:
All religious authority is bad;
The bishops are bad;
The laity have been stifled, silenced for too long!
The laity need to speak up and hold bishops accountable!
You gotta right to (insert whatever) and no bishop can stop you!

As a result of the media, this is the entitlement generation.

If the politician restricts worship, blame the bishop (nor the laity who keep electing anti Catholic pols).

I don’t know what the big issue will be in 2022, but I know how the spin will go.

 

[Philomenasmum]

(shops in the UK that sell alcohol).

Just a side note. I’m Australian and when we had our shutdown, all liquor stores remained opened as essential. I though that was odd, but they ended up saying it was essential, because there was a chance domestic violence would increase, if alcoholics couldn’t get booze.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

If our conscience tells us to attend the Holy Mass, to worship God in the most excellent way and this option is taken away from us then what?

Then you show deference to your diocesan Bishop, who is the supreme moderator of the liturgy for the territory of which he is Bishop.

Whatever your conscience is telling you is immaterial if there is no priest to confect the Eucharist.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

There was concern expressed here in the USA that if alcohol was not available, then people who were alcoholics would go into withdrawal and die.

I personally thought that they just wanted to give people some means of sedating/ calming themselves when they were stuck in the house. I think in this area the liquor stores were closed, but the beer stores were all open. You could get liquor by mail order. Also in many places you can buy beer and wine at the grocery store when you are shopping for food.

I was just reading an article where the author was talking about how a number of people have developed a drinking problem during the pandemic lockdown, since they don’t have to go out to work and have anxiety or depression over the pandemic, so it makes it easy to just sit around drinking more than normal.

 

[InThePew]

Bishops are closing churches?
That’s an insult to the martyrs.

No it’s not. As a priest, I was stunned to receive an email from my bishop earlier this telling me that all masses were suspended until further notice. There is no doubt in my mind that this was an incredibly difficult decision for him to have to make and not something which he would ever have imagined that he would have to do. However it was a necessary decision for the good of the Church and the wider community. To talk about everyone making their own decisions and about individual freedoms but doing so, without considering the broader wellbeing of society is self centred and ignores personal accountability - we are all accountable to each other for our action since no man is an island and our rights do not exist in isolation from others. It not not about convenience as much as it is necessity.

While the eucharist is of course the source and summit of our salvation, you could instead use this time of separation from the sacrament to remind yourself of the luxury you have previously enjoyed of having regular access and offer up this time for the sake of those for who such separation isn’t merely an inconvenience but instead a sad normality. For you, this time will (eventually) pass - the same cannot however be said for them!

 

[Philomenasmum]

I agree. My husband works at a liquor store and when shutdowns were first announced, they assumed they would be closed too. The lines out the store were ridiculous, with people waiting for over an hour, to make sure they had enough. It was revealed later they would stay open, but the initial response was panic buy.

 

[Jaaanosik]

Jaaanosik:

If our conscience tells us to attend the Holy Mass, to worship God in the most excellent way and this option is taken away from us then what?

Then you show deference to your diocesan Bishop, who is the supreme moderator of the liturgy for the territory of which he is Bishop.

Whatever your conscience is telling you is immaterial if there is no priest to confect the Eucharist.

Right, you just described the current situation.
Your point is?

 

[Jaaanosik]

Jaaanosik:

Bishops are closing churches?
That’s an insult to the martyrs.

…
However it was a necessary decision for the good of the Church and the wider community.
…

This is socialism ideology.
I grew up in socialism, I attended secret Holy Masses, we were attacked.
This is socialism ideology that St. John Paul II was fighting against.
The collective is more important and above the individual.
If you didn’t know that, now you know.

 

[Jaaanosik]

Jaaanosik:

Bishops are closing churches?
That’s an insult to the martyrs.

…
To talk about everyone making their own decisions and about individual freedoms but doing so, without considering the broader wellbeing of society is self centred and ignores personal accountability - we are all accountable to each other for our action since no man is an island and our rights do not exist in isolation from others. It not not about convenience as much as it is necessity.
…

I did not say that.
I said the pandemic is a serious thing.
We need to follow the rules.
Nevertheless, closing churches is very bad.
Christians are getting spiritually and mentally sick. Christians are not getting help from priests and bishops.
There will not be a healthy society and healthy Church anymore when members of the society and the Church are sick.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

You do realize that both Inthepew and Don_Ruggero are priests? Please be respectful and don’t go accusing them of being contrary to Church teaching.

While I know it is frustrating to not have Mass, you’re sounding a bit unreasonable. You’re not the first person to have to go without Mass. You could offer it up.

 

[Jaaanosik]

Jaaanosik:

Bishops are closing churches?
That’s an insult to the martyrs.

…

While the eucharist is of course the source and summit of our salvation, you could instead use this time of separation from the sacrament to remind yourself of the luxury you have previously enjoyed of having regular access and offer up this time for the sake of those for who such separation isn’t merely an inconvenience but instead a sad normality. For you, this time will (eventually) pass - the same cannot however be said for them!

Really?
Why did Jesus said 4x in John 6 we need to eat His body?
4x times so He wanted to make sure he is not misunderstood.
Priests and extraordinary ministers bring Holy Communion to elderly and sick in normal times.
Now, … nothing.
I am not sure you comprehend how bad is this situation.
I respect, you are a priest, still I disagree with your opinion.
Closing Churches is against God’s Natural Law is a valid point.
That can be easily shown.

 

[Jaaanosik]

You do realize that both Inthepew and Don_Ruggero are priests? Please be respectful and don’t go accusing them of being contrary to Church teaching.

While I know it is frustrating to not have Mass, you’re sounding a bit unreasonable. You’re not the first person to have to go without Mass. You could offer it up.

Closing churches is against God’s Natural Law.
If they are priests then they should know it.
If they do not know it, fine, I can show it in a couple of paragraphs.

The Church teaches God’s Natural Law that is imprinted upon our hearts. The manifestation of the God’s Natural Law is capability of all people, not only Christians, with a good heart to reason and to understand our human nature and its inclinations as designed by the Creator. These interdependent inclinations (from most fundamental to most excellent) are existence/life, the procreation and education of offspring, living in society, and the pursuit of truth. The most excellent inclination is the pursuit of the Truth – to worship God.

The very proof of the above – freedom of religion is recognized and protected by Bill of Rights.
It is recognized by all the people, by the society.

The most excellent inclination trumps the fundamental inclinations.
Martyrs died for the pursuit of the Truth - to worship God.
Celibacy - clergy gave up procreation and education of offspring for the pursuit of the Truth - to worship God.

Closing churches takes away free will of Christians who can decide for themselves how to physically protect their health. We will protect our health but to worship God during the Holy Mass, to pray, to ask for His help in tough times is more excellent way to go no matter how big pandemic we would have. That is the God’s Natural Law.

 

[paperwight]

Don Ruggero and InThePew. may I add to the chorus of ‘How great to hear from you again’?

You have really been missed. I am sure I am not alone in hoping that you will have time to join us in one of the new forums. Your contributions are so helpful and valuable.

 

[HeDa]

All priests that I know, celebrate Mass every day even if the people in the pew are not present.

One of the priests in my neighbourhood said, when he celebrated 50 years as a priest, that there were only two days during those 50 years that he hadn’t celebrated Mass or gone to Mass. Those two days he was in hospital and not allowed to eat. Then he showed me the travel Mass kit be brings with him.

It is difficult when you are told to not go to Mass. Many Catholics in rural areas can only make it to Mass once per month when the priest comes around to their area, if they are not able to drive 4-6 hours to the parish church when the roads are cleared and the weather is OK. Or catch a plane to a major city…

It seems like we miss going to Mass the most when we can’t make it due to sickness, bad weather or something else that is beyond our will.

 

[TomH1]

Just a side note. I’m Australian and when we had our shutdown, all liquor stores remained opened as essential. I though that was odd, but they ended up saying it was essential, because there was a chance domestic violence would increase, if alcoholics couldn’t get booze.

I can’t remember from my time in Australia whether supermarkets sell alcohol. They do here in the UK. Supermarkets stayed open so people can buy food so alcohol was available there. There has also been a very strong argument that enforced lockdowns have meant two people have had to stay in the same dwelling where one is an abuser of the other. So that would be an argument against the lockdown itself!