Churches closed - Holy Mass request

[Jaaanosik]

Jaaanosik:

I know, that was a joke, it does not apply here.

Ok. The two times you brought it up…it sure didn’t sound like you were joking.

Why they would not do that?

You’d have to ask them. My guess is they’re utilizing the information provided by the CDC and department of health and making, what they believe, the best choice with the information they have.

I know why they do it. It was meant more as a rhetorical question.
I am pointing out they made a wrong decision. They go against God’s Natural Law.
Bishops go against free will of Christians and ultimately their conscience.
That does not work. Forced obedience is a dictatorship.

 

[commenter]

Bishops go against free will of Christians and ultimately their conscience.
That does not work. Forced obedience is a dictatorship.

There’s this whole “I gotta right” generation today. People object to teachers claiming to know more than their students. Agencies presume there’s some abuse going on if parents are telling their children to things the kids don’t want to do, or dare to restrict TV and cell phone use.

I’m seeing this attitude coming into the Church, too. It’s kind of a consumerist mentality.

(In my old parish the Mass was temporarily offered in a hall, a short distance from the bingo hall. One lady had it timed, she would routinely leave bingo and walk in about Communion time, get her Communion, go back to her game.)

Living as a Catholic isn’t “forced”. It’s a free choice that includes many responsibilities. It is being in a community, with separate roles as mother, father, child, parishioner, sister, pastor, bishop, and others. The whole Church, in unity, is a kind of sacrament. We have lost sight of that total picture.

 

[Jaaanosik]

Jaaanosik:

Bishops go against free will of Christians and ultimately their conscience.
That does not work. Forced obedience is a dictatorship.

…

Living as a Catholic isn’t “forced”. It’s a free choice that includes many responsibilities. It is being in a community, with separate roles as mother, father, child, parishioner, sister, pastor, bishop, and others. The whole Church, in unity, is a kind of sacrament. We have lost sight of that total picture.

We are being ‘forced’, away from the Holy Mass.

 

[TC3033]

commenter:

Jaaanosik:

Bishops go against free will of Christians and ultimately their conscience.
That does not work. Forced obedience is a dictatorship.

…

Living as a Catholic isn’t “forced”. It’s a free choice that includes many responsibilities. It is being in a community, with separate roles as mother, father, child, parishioner, sister, pastor, bishop, and others. The whole Church, in unity, is a kind of sacrament. We have lost sight of that total picture.

We are being ‘forced’, away from the Holy Mass.

Of course, that’s your opinion, but it is also by the hierarchy of your church.

 

[Jaaanosik]

Jaaanosik:

…
We are being ‘forced’, away from the Holy Mass.

Of course, that’s your opinion, but it is also by the hierarchy of your church.

That’s not my opinion, that is a fact.
It is a privilege to attend the Holy Mass.
The way how this privilege was taken away is very disappointing.
Was it lawful according to Church’s laws? Would anybody know?
It is hard to imagine the Church’s law stands in an opposition to the God’s Natural Law.

 

[commenter]

It is hard to imagine the Church’s law stands in an opposition to the God’s Natural Law.

The Natural Law applies to all persons, Catholic or not, and applies to other things besides Mass and the sacraments.

 

[Shasta-Rose]

Also, I guarantee you there’s no crowding issue at weekday Masses. The only thing that happened with those is the churches moved them from the small chapels to the big church space to allow social distancing.

The weekday Mass is the only thing I am attending. Generally 24 to 44 people in a very big space, and Father is good about seeing that everything is sanitized. There are just too many people in the Sunday Mass (sometimes) and I imagine Christmas will be even more crowded. Just can’t take the chance. My husband isn’t a church goer, and I couldn’t live with myself if I brought the virus home to him.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Yeah, if my husband were alive I would be much more worried where I go.

 

[Jaaanosik]

Jaaanosik:

It is hard to imagine the Church’s law stands in an opposition to the God’s Natural Law.

The Natural Law applies to all persons, Catholic or not, and applies to other things besides Mass and the sacraments.

We need to eat His body. Do we believe Jesus’ words?
Why would the bishops take this away from us?
To put collective above individual? Socialism!
The socialist ideology killed millions in the last century.
We already had that experiment.

 

[TC3033]

Was it lawful according to Church’s laws? Would anybody know?

Sure sounds like it, otherwise I doubt it would have happened…we’ve had this thread a bunch of times since the pandemic has started.

Otherwise you can ask @acanonlawyer

It is a privilege to attend the Holy Mass.

And a privilege isn’t a right.

The way how this privilege was taken away is very disappointing.

To you, many others understand why Bishops did what they did (are doing) and respect that.

 

[Jaaanosik]

…
To you, many others understand why Bishops did what they did (are doing) and respect that.

It is the socialist ideology when collective good is above individual good.
As mentioned above, the socialist experiment was here in the last century.
Millions died.

 

[commenter]

TC3033:

…
To you, many others understand why Bishops did what they did (are doing) and respect that.

It is the socialist ideology when collective good is above individual good.
As mentioned above, the socialist experiment was here in the last century.
Millions died.

You are right to be concerned about socialist ideology. It is evil, and it’s growing, in the US. But you are blurring the different agents. Do you remember the union, Solidarity, which helped unite free individuals against the collective?

The Church isn’t the collective, the bishops are not the enemies of lay individuals. The Church is comparable to a union. The government media establishment is trying to crush that union by persuading Laity to distrust the bishop, to claim their “rights”, not against the government but against the Church.

Media driven laity who publicly denounce the bishops are applauded as if they were courageous rebels, but in reality, they are like strikebreakers.

 

[TC3033]

It is the socialist ideology when collective good is above individual good.

How do you know that’s why your specific bishop made their decision? I know may a diocese where the decision was made for the protection of priests rather than the “greater good”.

I’m sorry that you’re upset, but the Church isn’t a republic either, it has a hierarchy (to be respected), and bishops in said hierarchy are making lawful decisions based on data they are receiving from local health departments.

 

[Jaaanosik]

…
You are right to be concerned about socialist ideology. It is evil, and it’s growing, in the US. But you are blurring the different agents. Do you remember the union, Solidarity, which helped unite free individuals against the collective?

The Church isn’t the collective, the bishops are not the enemies of lay individuals. The Church is comparable to a union. The government media establishment is trying to crush that union by persuading Laity to distrust the bishop, to claim their “rights”, not against the government but against the Church.

Media driven laity who publicly denounce the bishops are applauded as if they were courageous rebels, but in reality, they are like strikebreakers.

From a bishop’s letter:
1. "Am I my brother’s keeper?” Yes, we are responsible for others. In justice, as well as charity, we have no right recklessly to endanger others, or to cause their death.
2. “Thou shalt not kill.”

What a strange wording. Spreading fear and a blame game.
Collective physical health is above individual spiritual health.
Cutting branches from the Vine to protect a physical health?
I am applying the God’s Natural Law to spiritual existence/life.
If we do not have spiritually healthy individuals we do not have any union.
In order to have spiritual health we need the Holy Mass.

Spiritually healthy individuals will respond properly to any physical danger, when bishops will ask them.
Forcing Christians away from the Holy Mass is undermining conscience of Christians, taking away their free will, making decisions on their behalf.
You cannot be trusted, we have to decide for you.

It reminds of this: ‘I have no conscience,’ declared …, ‘… is my conscience.’
Would you know where it is from? Who said that?
This is very serious danger that we are facing. Bishops are playing along.

 

[Jaaanosik]

Jaaanosik:

It is the socialist ideology when collective good is above individual good.

How do you know that’s why your specific bishop made their decision? I know may a diocese where the decision was made for the protection of priests rather than the “greater good”.

I’m sorry that you’re upset, but the Church isn’t a republic either, it has a hierarchy (to be respected), and bishops in said hierarchy are making lawful decisions based on data they are receiving from local health departments.

This is a very serious fight between good and evil.
It would not be unlawful if churches stayed open.
I do respect bishops.
It is my duty to provide them feedback, especially when they do not see what is going on.
I give them benefit of doubt that they do not see what is going on.
If they do see it then the whole situation/problem is on completely another level.

 

[TC3033]

I do respect bishops.

It is my duty to provide them feedback, especially when they do not see what is going on.
I give them benefit of doubt that they do not see what is going on.
If they do see it then the whole situation/problem is on completely another level.

These two comments don’t jive together.

 

[Jaaanosik]

Jaaanosik:

I do respect bishops.

It is my duty to provide them feedback, especially when they do not see what is going on.
I give them benefit of doubt that they do not see what is going on.
If they do see it then the whole situation/problem is on completely another level.

These two comments don’t jive together.

Then the word respect has different meaning for you than me.
I can respect someone but disagree what they do and how they see things.
What is respect in your dictionary?

 

[TC3033]

TC3033:

Jaaanosik:

I do respect bishops.

It is my duty to provide them feedback, especially when they do not see what is going on.
I give them benefit of doubt that they do not see what is going on.
If they do see it then the whole situation/problem is on completely another level.

These two comments don’t jive together.

Then the word respect has different meaning for you than me.
I can respect someone but disagree what they do and how they see things.
What is respect in your dictionary?

When it comes to decision making: Respecting the decisions of elders/hierarchy trusting they made the best decision they could with the information in front of them; rather than trying to push the ideal that they are trying to work against God. Hey, maybe that’s just me though.

 

[Jaaanosik]

…
When it comes to decision making: Respecting the decisions of elders/hierarchy trusting they made the best decision they could with the information in front of them; rather than trying to push the ideal that they are trying to work against God. Hey, maybe that’s just me though.

I showed the reasoning above.
Closing churches is against God’s Natural Law.
Can you show this is not the case?

Cutting us from the Vine, … is it good?

 

[TC3033]

I showed the reasoning above.
Closing churches is against God’s Natural Law.
Can you show this is not the case?

I’m not going to argue with you over your reasoning, apparently you’re better suited to make decisions for the Church than it’s own hierarchy/leadership.

Cutting us from the Vine, … is it good?

If it culls the spread…