Z
zagjames
Guest
Probably not, Priest that are part of the above ground PCCC have to atleast officially support the 1 child policy which includes abortion. So I doubt they would be free to teach that contreception is wrong.
- Status
B
bobzills
Guest
This is what I thought. That the Patriotic Catholic Church in China has a ban on teaching that ABC is wrong.
A
Amadeus
Guest
The point I am making is that there is no such “Patriotic Catholic Church in China.”
The Catholic Church in China is ONE. But there are those whose Bishops and priests who have been coerced into joining the Chinese Catholic Patriotic Association (or Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association), a division in the Religious Affairs Bureau of the Communist government. Majority of Chinese Catholics are “underground.”
The orthodoxy of Catholic teaching, particularly on contraception and abortion, of those under the communist “supervision” is, therefore, tainted and cannot be weighed judiciously.
The Catholic Church in China is ONE. But there are those whose Bishops and priests who have been coerced into joining the Chinese Catholic Patriotic Association (or Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association), a division in the Religious Affairs Bureau of the Communist government. Majority of Chinese Catholics are “underground.”
The orthodoxy of Catholic teaching, particularly on contraception and abortion, of those under the communist “supervision” is, therefore, tainted and cannot be weighed judiciously.
B
bobzills
Guest
The Cardinal Kung foundation does not agree with you. They say that there is a persecuted underground Roman Catholic Church in China which has been illegal in Communist China for over 50 years. The Patriotic Catholic Church in China is legal in China.
cardinalkungfoundation.org/index2.html
Where is your reference to refute the Cardinal Kung foundation’s assertion which everyone is agreeing with.
G
Genesis315
Guest
In common parlance, people often use “ex cathedra” to mean all the conditions are met, but in reality, “ex cathedra” is just one condition–it is the condition that the Pope is teaching the entire Church. In this sense, almost every word of every papal encyclical, bull, apostolic constitution, etc. is “ex cathedra.” What many lack is any definitive, and irreformable judgment. Usually they just explain and discuss some points of faith and apply them to various contemporary conditions.
The Pope is infallible when he definitively confirms some truth to definitively belong to the deposit faith (which can also be done by a definitive condemnation of the corresponding heresy)) and that therefore must be believed or held by the whole Church. If the Pope says this, the faithful can put their faith in that truth with worrying if it is actually true–the Holy Spirit guarantees its truth.
J
jj2011
Guest
In the dogmatic constitution Pastor Aeternus, to speak ex cathedra means to define doctrine about faith or morals. Thus it is erroneous to suppose that the putative excommunication of the SSPX bishops is ex cathedra.
G
Genesis315
Guest
Here’s a good little tract on this by St. Francis de Sales:
angelfire.com/ms/seanie/papacy/fds_pope14.html
(note, he says “in cathedra” instead of “ex cathedra” but the sense is the same).
angelfire.com/ms/seanie/papacy/fds_pope14.html
(note, he says “in cathedra” instead of “ex cathedra” but the sense is the same).
G
Genesis315
Guest
Correct
Excommunications are not necessarily always just (whether that applied to Lefebrve was just or not is for another thread of course)…
J
jj2011
Guest
Again, since we have non-Catholics here, I must insist in clarifying what we mean by infallibility and ‘ex cathedra.’
In Pastor Aeternus, an ex cathedra statement means that the Roman Pontiff by his supreme apostolic authority defines doctrine on faith or morals. Also, nothing can be held as defined unless it has been clearly established as such.
From the 1983 code of canon law:
Can. 749 §1. By virtue of his office, the Supreme Pontiff possesses infallibility in teaching when as the supreme pastor and teacher of all the Christian faithful, who strengthens his brothers and sisters in the faith, he proclaims by definitive act that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held.
§2. The college of bishops also possesses infallibility in teaching when the bishops gathered together in an ecumenical council exercise the magisterium as teachers and judges of faith and morals who declare for the universal Church that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held definitively; or when dispersed throughout the world but preserving the bond of communion among themselves and with the successor of Peter and teaching authentically together with the Roman Pontiff matters of faith or morals, they agree that a particular proposition is to be held definitively.
§3. No doctrine is understood as defined infallibly unless this is manifestly evident.
In Pastor Aeternus, an ex cathedra statement means that the Roman Pontiff by his supreme apostolic authority defines doctrine on faith or morals. Also, nothing can be held as defined unless it has been clearly established as such.
From the 1983 code of canon law:
Can. 749 §1. By virtue of his office, the Supreme Pontiff possesses infallibility in teaching when as the supreme pastor and teacher of all the Christian faithful, who strengthens his brothers and sisters in the faith, he proclaims by definitive act that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held.
§2. The college of bishops also possesses infallibility in teaching when the bishops gathered together in an ecumenical council exercise the magisterium as teachers and judges of faith and morals who declare for the universal Church that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held definitively; or when dispersed throughout the world but preserving the bond of communion among themselves and with the successor of Peter and teaching authentically together with the Roman Pontiff matters of faith or morals, they agree that a particular proposition is to be held definitively.
§3. No doctrine is understood as defined infallibly unless this is manifestly evident.
B
bobzills
Guest
That is interesting because I recall seeing posters on CAF say that all Catholic teaching is infallible.
A
Amadeus
Guest
Yes, the CKF agrees with me!
From the website of the Cardinal Kung Foundation as you linked:
The Catholic Church in China is only ONE, but it has TWO faces.
The CCPA is a governmental entity under the Religious Affairs Bureau of the communist government of China to monitor the activities of the Catholic Church in China. It is run by a governmental functionary. It is not a Church by whatever definition. But it coerces Catholic Bishops, priests, and laity to join the association for “protection”, i.e., to be relatively freed from persecution by the “religious police.”
If you will recall, 4 Bishops from mainland China were designated to represent that country in the recently held World Synod of Bishops in Rome. 3 of the Bishops were/are affiliated with the CCPA and one with the “underground” Church. (However, all four were not allowed by the communist government to travel to Rome.)
The people at CKF know that the Catholic Church in China is ONE, which the late Cardinal Kung fought for dearly with his life!
B
bobzills
Guest
Looking at the CCPA, is contraception taught as wrong by the clergy in that face or not?
B
bobzills
Guest
Amadeus;2972153[COLOR=#004000:
[QUOTE]
The people at CKF know that the Catholic Church in China is ONE, which the late Cardinal Kung fought for dearly with his life!
[/QUOTE]
However, the CKF talks about the underground Roman Catholic Church. Is it not true that if you are a member of the underground Roman Catholic Church you are subject to arrest and criminal prosecution, but if you are a member of the CCPA you are not.
And is it true or not that the Patriotic Chines Catholic Church aka the CCPA, allows Catholics to use ABC ?
[QUOTE]
The people at CKF know that the Catholic Church in China is ONE, which the late Cardinal Kung fought for dearly with his life!
[/QUOTE]
However, the CKF talks about the underground Roman Catholic Church. Is it not true that if you are a member of the underground Roman Catholic Church you are subject to arrest and criminal prosecution, but if you are a member of the CCPA you are not.
And is it true or not that the Patriotic Chines Catholic Church aka the CCPA, allows Catholics to use ABC ?
C
Catherine_Grant
Guest
**Please take the discussion specific to the Patriotic Chinese Catholic Church and the underground Catholic Church in China to the appropriate forum.
It should only be discussed here in so far as it relates to Eastern Catholicism.
Thank you. **
It should only be discussed here in so far as it relates to Eastern Catholicism.
Thank you. **
- Status