Church's Teaching on torture

[Matt33]

We were in a discussion in confirmation class about torture and I quoted the catechism about torture and that the Church does not condone it for ANY reason we were talking about if you had a bomber who knew where a bomb was could you torture and etc… Someone in the group asked if the Church has always had that view of torture in light of crusades and inqusitions which I responed that there were many political issues that were there. but I would love to know if someone could help me with finding out the Church’s position on torture pre modern times and pre CCC.
I don’t whant this to turn in to a debate on what torture is (that is not the issue) just the concept of it (in it’s most evident forms) being unjustifiable in the eyes of the Church viewed through the lens of history.

 

[emill311]

I think we can all agree that the Church’s stance on torture is that it is intrinsically evil, and as such it would be morally wrong to engage in it even for a supposedly good end.

I’m no scholar regarding the Crusades or Inquisitions, but much of what is commonly believed about those periods in Church history has been blown way out of proportion by people hostile to the Church.

Check out:
catholiceducation.org/articles/history/world/wh0075.html

According to the article, in rare instances (2% of the cases) torture was employed by some in the Church during the Spanish Inquisition, but by and large the Inquisitions were a far more fair and just system of justice than secular Medieval courts. I am guessing (and may be wrong) that even when torture was used by Inquisitors that it was not condoned by the Magisterium but was errantly applied by certain individuals who were acting without the benefit of a properly formed conscience.

This is an interesting topic and you have given me something to research further. Does anyone have suggestions for good historical accounts of the Inquisitions?

 

[Genesis315]

The Second Vatican Council proclaimed the following:
Gaudium et Spes:

Furthermore, whatever is opposed to life itself, such as any type of murder, genocide, abortion, euthanasia or wilful self-destruction, whatever violates the integrity of the human person, such as mutilation, torments inflicted on body or mind, attempts to coerce the will itself; whatever insults human dignity, such as subhuman living conditions, arbitrary imprisonment, deportation, slavery, prostitution, the selling of women and children; as well as disgraceful working conditions, where men are treated as mere tools for profit, rather than as free and responsible persons; all these things and others of their like are infamies indeed. They poison human society, but they do more harm to those who practice them than those who suffer from the injury. Moreover, they are supreme dishonor to the Creator.

For a much more detailed on this topic, I suggest this two part article which traces this issue through Scripture, the Fathers and the Magisterium through the centuries (including the controveries you mention):

Part I
Part II

 

[Ridgerunner]

The Second Vatican Council proclaimed the following:

For a much more detailed on this topic, I suggest this two part article which traces this issue through Scripture, the Fathers and the Magisterium through the centuries (including the controveries you mention):

Part I
Part II

Very interesting and worthy of detailed study. Thank you for the references.

 

[ahollars]

I think we can all agree that the Church’s stance on torture is that it is intrinsically evil, and as such it would be morally wrong to engage in it even for a supposedly good end.

No, it is not intrinsically evil. There are five intrinsic evils that have been identified, and torture is not one of them.

I am not advocating it, but if someone kidnapped one of my daughters and I caught him and he wouldn’t talk, that would be my breaking point. It’s probably the veteran in me. Given the things I have seen, I admit my view is slanted, but even if I didn’t exactly save my own child, it could have been yours.

 

[Pug]

No, it is not intrinsically evil. There are five intrinsic evils that have been identified, and torture is not one of them.

I am unfamiliar with a doctrinal list of exactly five intrinsic evils by name, so I’m not sure what you have in mind there. According to the encyclical Veritatis Splendor, it would seem that torture is an intrinsic evil. See paragraph 80:

1. Reason attests that there are objects of the human act which are by their nature “incapable of being ordered” to God, because they radically contradict the good of the person made in his image. These are the acts which, in the Church’s moral tradition, have been termed “intrinsically evil” (“intrinsece malum”): they are such “always and per se,” in other words, on account of their very object, and quite apart from the ulterior intentions of the one acting and the circumstances. Consequently, without in the least denying the influence on morality exercised by circumstances and especially by intentions, the Church teaches that “there exist acts which “per se” and in themselves, independently of circumstances, are always seriously wrong by reason of their object”.[131] The Second Vatican Council itself, in discussing the respect due to the human person, gives a number of examples of such acts: “Whatever is hostile to life itself, such as any kind of homicide, genocide, abortion, euthanasia and voluntary suicide; whatever violates the integrity of the human person, such as mutilation, physical and mental torture and attempts to coerce the spirit; whatever is offensive to human dignity, such as subhuman living conditions, arbitrary imprisonment, deportation, slavery, prostitution and trafficking in women and children; degrading conditions of work which treat labourers as mere instruments of profit, and not as free responsible persons: all these and the like are a disgrace, and so long as they infect human civilization they contaminate those who inflict them more than those who suffer injustice, and they are a negation of the honour due to the Creator”.[132] …

emphasis in red mine, not original, for the purpose of explaining why I think what I said

 

[ahollars]

I am unfamiliar with a doctrinal list of exactly five intrinsic evils by name, so I’m not sure what you have in mind there. According to the encyclical Veritatis Splendor, it would seem that torture is an intrinsic evil. See paragraph 80:

emphasis in red mine, not original, for the purpose of explaining why I think what I said

Good answer. I was referring to the five identified by the USCCB: abortion, euthanasia, embryonic stem-cell research, gay marriage, and artificial contraception. I thought that if torture was one of them, then the USCCB would have included it in their list.

 

[Pug]

Good answer. I was referring to the five identified by the USCCB: abortion, euthanasia, embryonic stem-cell research, gay marriage, and artificial contraception. I thought that if torture was one of them, then the USCCB would have included it in their list.

That list is a lot like the Catholic Answers tract list about the “five non-negotiables” (or, maybe that is a Catholic Answers Action tract, I’m not sure). Perhaps the list is formed of things that are of political impact now, in these times, so that a voter can make a difference on them. That methodology might leave things like rape or torture off the list. So, I’m betting that the list you are thinking of has a particular purpose, and that is why it is short. In case it proves of interest to you, the Catechism (CCC) identifies rape as an intrinsic evil in paragraph 2356.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

No, it is not intrinsically evil. There are five intrinsic evils that have been identified, and torture is not one of them.

I am not advocating it, but if someone kidnapped one of my daughters and I caught him and he wouldn’t talk, that would be my breaking point. It’s probably the veteran in me. Given the things I have seen, I admit my view is slanted, but even if I didn’t exactly save my own child, it could have been yours.

Good answer. I was referring to the five identified by the USCCB: abortion, euthanasia, embryonic stem-cell research, gay marriage, and artificial contraception. I thought that if torture was one of them, then the USCCB would have included it in their list.

That list is a lot like the Catholic Answers tract list about the “five non-negotiables” (or, maybe that is a Catholic Answers Action tract, I’m not sure). Perhaps the list is formed of things that are of political impact now, in these times, so that a voter can make a difference on them. That methodology might leave things like rape or torture off the list. So, I’m betting that the list you are thinking of has a particular purpose, and that is why it is short. In case it proves of interest to you, the Catechism (CCC) identifies rape as an intrinsic evil in paragraph 2356.

Since neither US Candidate stood on a platform or torture, rape, masturbation, etc. these were not on the voters guide list. The list of intrinsically evils is not limited to 5.