Church's view on same sex adoption?

[CopticChristian]

Or, you can do “good” to produce evil. I will never listen to excuses that result in harming children. That type of grave indifference lead straight to actions like abortion, etc.

Well,

This is something that I had not thought of…provide me a simple explanation of…

Doing good to produce evil…and

provide me examples of at least 3 situations where…

Doing good produces evil…

Explain how you know something is good?

Explain how you know something is evil?

 

[polytropos]

Well, I arguing for the large number of children that don’t have any parents in the first place, and aren’t receiving gender cues, attention, or anything else. One of the foster kids my ex mother-in-law took in was a Satanist; dressed completely in black, like a witch, at all times. That’s just one of the many things that can occur when these children don’t get attention at all.

Most people are arguing from the perspective of “you can’t do this, regardless of what happens to the children.” I’m arguing from the perspective of “you cannot take the unGodly act of harming the children (directly or indirectly), so get them into a situation where they will at least get some attention, even if it is not ideal.”

The latter situation is not anecdotal either. There are plenty of children available for adoption; they just don’t fit people’s “criteria.”

I’m not arguing that living without parents or in a single parent household is better for children. I said nothing of the sort, and inferring such would be absurd given that it is quite contrary to Church teaching. Children need a mother and a father. Divorce hurts children and is also a threat to the institution of marriage. That is not really what is being debated.

Children are meant to be raised in a family. It is not ideal for their development that they be adopted (or raised) by any non-family, whether it be a single parent or a homosexual couple. The law should reflect the best interest of children; it should not pass children from one non-family to another. As you say, “you cannot take the unGodly act of harming children (directly or indirectly).” You are arguing that rather than harm children indirectly through inaction, they be harmed directly through same-sex adoption. You violate your own principle.

 

[Mark121359]

I am under no obligation to answer any of your questions. Demanding others to answer questions often is a sign of insecurity of one’s own beliefs.

Fair enough. And I can assure you, that my asking you to “answer questions” is by no means a sign of my insecurity in my beliefs, for I stand firmly and confidently with The Catholic Church on all of her teachings. My understanding is that those who do not want to answer a simple yes or no question, and proceeds to give an obscure or murky answer is to my way of thinking at least, the one who may be insecure in their beliefs. But maybe it’s just me.

Peace, Mark

 

[Elizabeth502]

I know Warrior appreciates the psycho analysis, especially when it is “free”.

Nothing psychoanalytical in post 158.

 

[Elizabeth502]

When it comes to children, Christ Himself is crystal clear on the matter. You may not take action that harms children, … the harm that comes to the lost children isn’t even a thought in the discussion. I feel like I’m reading posts from modern-day Pharisees.

And I don’t “feel that,” I know that, you are ascribing to Jesus conclusions regarding particular situations which cannot be determined from His general statement. You have merely decided which does and does not “harm” children more or less, according to your standards. (And then accused others of being Pharisees.)

Good job.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

Well,

This is something that I had not thought of…provide me a simple explanation of…

Doing good to produce evil…and

provide me examples of at least 3 situations where…

Doing good produces evil…

Explain how you know something is good?

Explain how you know something is evil?

I’ve already explained one. Abandoning children for the sake of an ideal.

I seriously wonder if people in this thread are parents (certainly not adoptive parents such as myself). Certainly nobody knows anything about the sad state of minority, disabled, etc., children stuck in the system.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

I’m not arguing that living without parents or in a single parent household is better for children. I said nothing of the sort, and inferring such would be absurd given that it is quite contrary to Church teaching. Children need a mother and a father. Divorce hurts children and is also a threat to the institution of marriage. That is not really what is being debated.

Children are meant to be raised in a family. It is not ideal for their development that they be adopted (or raised) by any non-family, whether it be a single parent or a homosexual couple. The law should reflect the best interest of children; it should not pass children from one non-family to another. As you say, “you cannot take the unGodly act of harming children (directly or indirectly).” You are arguing that rather than harm children indirectly through inaction, they be harmed directly through same-sex adoption. You violate your own principle.

And what do you do when they don’t have ideal situation? The silence is deafening when it comes offering a practical solution.

 

[fix]

I’ve already explained one. Abandoning children for the sake of an ideal.

I seriously wonder if people in this thread are parents (certainly not adoptive parents such as myself). Certainly nobody knows anything about the sad state of minority, disabled, etc., children stuck in the system.

It is not an ideal. It is truth.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

You confuse me.

You are a martial artist and I am sure you would agree that within any system of fighting there are things you know, things you do and to advance you must do it in accord with that system. It is not a creative endeavor that you engage in to advance in any given martial art system. At the higher levels creativity may be allowed.

You are a musician and you have pointed out the necessity of reading music, practice, and relevance to what you play.

I’m curious as to what this has to do with raising children. We raise our children instinctively; it does not take years of mentoring to do.

You have pointed out that you are married to a non-Catholic and perhaps you hear other than de fide teaching on the Church.

No. I’ve pointed out that I was married to a non-Catholic, and have mentioned that in the context of advising others not to marry outside their faith. My wife is Catholic…and very caring about children, like myself.

This is CAF a place where Catholics explain and defend the Faith. When you speak contrary to Church teaching then all I can conclude is that you have not taken the time to read, study, practice what the Catechism teaches. A formed conscience requries that you use Church teaching.

I’m waiting for someone to defend that it is better for a child to be lost in the system, subject to physical and sexual abuse, and never bonding with an adult, than to be placed in a less than ideal situation where they at least have some hope.

Your postings indicate that your priorities are first

Wife/Family
Martial Arts
Music

and lastly your Faith and a formed conscience…

If faith is last, why did I marry a Catholic wife the second time around. Explain please…

Have you read and studied the Catechism?

Have you adopted one or more abandoned children?

 

[CopticChristian]

TheWarriorMonk:

I’m curious as to what this has to do with raising children. We raise our children instinctively; it does not take years of mentoring to do.

I asked you about understanding the Faith and asked if you have read and studied the Catechism. Have you read and studied the Catechism?

No. I’ve pointed out that I was married to a non-Catholic, and have mentioned that in the context of advising others not to marry outside their faith. My wife is Catholic…and very caring about children, like myself.

Understood and a correction would be in order. Have you read and studied the Catechism?

I’m waiting for someone to defend that it is better for a child to be lost in the system, subject to physical and sexual abuse, and never bonding with an adult, than to be placed in a less than ideal situation where they at least have some hope.

I am waiting for your explanation of…

doing good to produce evil…with examples

How do you define good?

How do you define evil?

If faith is last, why did I marry a Catholic wife the second time around. Explain please…

I may be wrong. Have you read and studied the Catechism cover to cover?

Have you adopted one or more abandoned children?

Empiricism vs Rationalism…found in this kind of thinking…

Only an alcoholic can help an alcoholic…that is the 12 step religion of AA paradigm, however there are people in the field that are not alcoholic that are quite able to help an alcoholic…

I know lots of homosexuals and they are not like that…basing a decision or belief on only what you know or experience.

I have 5 children and 5 grandchildren and my father and his sister were orphans. My parents took in a few children for a time whose families were having problems but no I have not adopted a child and not having adopted a child does not disqualify me or anybody else from stating…

Church view on same sex adoption…

I have never sodomized anyone and I have an opinion on that concerning Church teaching.

Do you believe you have to commit sodomy to have an opinion on sodomy?

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

It is not an ideal. It is truth.

I think people have forgotten what the OP stated; go back and read the first post. It actually deals with homosexual unions rather than adoption.

“As experience has shown, the absence of sexual complementarity in these unions creates obstacles in the normal development of children who would be placed in the care of such persons. They would be deprived of the experience of either fatherhood or motherhood. Allowing children to be adopted by persons living in such unions would actually mean doing violence to these children, in the sense that their condition of dependency would be used to place them in an environment that is not conducive to their full human development. This is gravely immoral and in open contradiction to the principle, recognized also in the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, that the best interests of the child, as the weaker and more vulnerable party, are to be the paramount consideration in every case.”

These very same issues apply to abandoned children, except in the case of abandoned children, it is far worse. At the most basic level, children need to be loved and need stability, and these abandoned children have neither.

So, if you’re against gays adopted children, you should be really, really against children being placed in orphanages, bounced between foster homes, etc. The number of children adopted by gay parents in nominal to the number of “unadoptable” children.

 

[CopticChristian]

I think people have forgotten what the OP stated; go back and read the first post. It actually deals with homosexual unions rather than adoption.

These very same issues apply to abandoned children, except in the case of abandoned children, it is far worse. At the most basic level, children need to be loved and need stability, and these abandoned children have neither.

So, if you’re against gays adopted children, you should be really, really against children being placed in orphanages, bounced between foster homes, etc. The number of children adopted by gay parents in nominal to the number of “unadoptable” children.

You might want to consider answering the question…

Have you read the Catechism cover to cover?

and

Start a thread on

Church view on orphanages

Church view on foster homes

This thread is about

Church view on same sex adoption.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

Have you read and studied the Catechism?

Yes. But which section discusses the matter of this thread?

How do you define good?

Do what is best for abandoned children.

How do you define evil?

Not doing what is best for abandoned children.

Only an alcoholic can help an alcoholic…that is the 12 step religion of AA paradigm, however there are people in the field that are not alcoholic that are quite able to help an alcoholic…

I know lots of homosexuals and they are not like that…basing a decision or belief on only what you know or experience.

I have 5 children and 5 grandchildren and my father and his sister were orphans. My parents took in a few children for a time whose families were having problems but no I have not adopted a child and not having adopted a child does not disqualify me or anybody else from stating…

Church view on same sex adoption…

I have never sodomized anyone and I have an opinion on that concerning Church teaching.

Do you believe you have to commit sodomy to have an opinion on sodomy?

If this is the case, is there any particular reason there were two married couples besides the priest teaching at my pre-Cana class?

 

[fix]

I think people have forgotten what the OP stated; go back and read the first post. It actually deals with homosexual unions rather than adoption.

These very same issues apply to abandoned children, except in the case of abandoned children, it is far worse. At the most basic level, children need to be loved and need stability, and these abandoned children have neither.

So, if you’re against gays adopted children, you should be really, really against children being placed in orphanages, bounced between foster homes, etc. The number of children adopted by gay parents in nominal to the number of “unadoptable” children.

The solution to a problem is not another bad problem.

 

[CopticChristian]

10708339]

Yes. But which section discusses the matter of this thread?

If you were to get a copy of the USA Catechism for Adults you would find this…I suggest the audio version, I have been through it over a dozen times…the hard copy is a good compliment.

A good conscience makes judgments that conform to reason and the good that is willed by the Wisdom of God. A good conscience requires lifelong formation. Each baptized follower of Christ is obliged to form his or her conscience according to objective moral standards. The Word of God is a principal tool in the formation of conscience when it is assimilated by study, prayer, and practice. The prudent advice and good example of others support and enlighten our conscience. The authoritative teach¬ing of the Church is an essential element in our conscience formation. Finally, the gifts of the Holy Spirit, combined with regular examination of our conscience, will help us develop a morally sensitive conscience.

Because our conscience is that inner sanctuary in which we listen to the voice of God, we must remember to distinguish between our sub¬jective self and what is objectively true outside ourselves. We can be sub¬jectively in error about something that is objectively true. On the objec¬tive level, if our conscience is “correct,” then there is no error between what is internally perceived to be true and truth itself. If there is an incorrect conscience, that means that the conscience is erroneous in its view of truth.

If you look at sins against Chastity…then ask if you would place a child in the home with someone that is constantly sinning against Chastity…for if you believe that you can ignore a sin against Chastity in one instance then this is subjective clouding your judgement that requires you to form your conscience with Church teaching and what you are demonstrating is a conscience not formed by Church teaching.

Do what is best for abandoned children.

Not doing what is best for abandoned children.

Both of these statements require a reasoned opinion based on a formed conscience that requires Church teaching as part of that opinion. Your opinions are, in my opinion, not consistent with Chruch teaching and therefore do not reflect a concscience that has been constantly formed. I too need this, you are not alone in needing formation of conscience.

If this is the case, is there any particular reason there were two married couples besides the priest teaching at my pre-Cana class?

You are affirming Empiricism and Rationalism…the priest is the Rational compliment to marraige via a formed conscience with teaching of the Church that is being imparted to others…not experience alone.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

The solution to a problem is not another bad problem.

The solution to a problem is not ignoring the bigger problem.

 

[fix]

The solution to a problem is not ignoring the bigger problem.

What is the bigger problem?

 

[Mark121359]

I’m waiting for someone to defend that it is better for a child to be lost in the system, subject to physical and sexual abuse, and never bonding with an adult, than to be placed in a less than ideal situation ***where they ***at least have some hope.

When you realize that the Catholic Church teaches ***authoritatively ***that homosexuality is an intrinsic evil *(And I can’t emphasize that enough!!!) *then you should without a doubt see why the Church cannot and should not advocate placing a child into this situation! They are concerned not only for the child’s physical and mental well being, since it is a well-demonstrated fact that same-sex partner relationships are significantly less stable and more short-lived on the average compared to a marriage of a man and a woman, but they are also concerned for this child’s spiritual well being, namely their soul. How in the world can that be the Christ-like thing to do, placing a child, no an innocent child, into these circumstances?

Peace, Mark

 

[fix]

Authentic help does not include homosexual parenting, drug addict parenting , and many other immoral situations.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

If you were to get a copy of the USA Catechism for Adults you would find this…I suggest the audio version, I have been through it over a dozen times…the hard copy is a good compliment.

In other words, the matter of who adopts abandoned children is not addressed in the Catechism. It is addressed elsewhere.

You are affirming Empiricism and Rationalism…the priest is the Rational compliment to marraige via a formed conscience with teaching of the Church that is being imparted to others…not experience alone.

You are affirming that experience is also required.

So, what is your solution to dealing with abandoned children? Or will you continue to talk about what should not be done with them, and whatever happens to them is their problem?