Cilice?

[Chiltepin]

I saw in the Ask an Apologist section that Fr. Serpa addressed a question about a cilice. His advice was vaguely against it, saying to focus on Christ rather than on one’s self.

I was only remotely aware that these devices existed and found the question and post very interesting.

My questions are:

1. Do any of you use these? How have you incorporated them into your spirituality?
2. Do any of you oppose the use of these? Why?

In both questions I am not referring to devices that cause much harm, merely discomfort.

Also, this is just a topic of interest. I am not the poster of the question to Fr. Serpa nor am I looking to use one at the moment. I just curious about the practice itself as well as objects to it.

 

[LilyM]

Never used it, don’t intend to in the foreseeable future.

I wouldn’t oppose the use of it PROVIDED that you have strict supervision by and approval of a spiritual director who knows you very well indeed, to avoid any spiritual dangers, such as spiritual pride.

Not to mention screening by a doctor to ensure that it won’t harm your health, any unusual infliction of physical pain is risky for those whose health isn’t good. And by a counsellor/psychiatrist to ensure that one isn’t, for example, doing so out of unhealthy masochistic motivations.

 

[NPC]

I would agree with what Lily said. I have never used a cilice, nor do I intend to. It would most certainly be important to seek advice from spiritual directors, doctors, etc. before using such a device. I wouldn’t dismiss the cilice outright, but it would be important to ensure that the motiviation for using one is purely spiritual.

In a retreat given by Archbishop Sheen a few years befor his death, he mentioned hair-shirts, saying that these days we don’t need them because our neighbours are hair-shirts! I think he’s right - anyone living in and interacting with the real world will have their patience, generosity, faith etc. tested many times a day. Perhaps my younger brother is a hair-shirt; maybe it’s the unhelpful assistant in the supermarket; for those who drive, the hair-shirt may be another road user…There are many struggles and discomforts that we all have to face, and my personal view would be that being charitable towards someone who makes it very difficult to be charitable would likely be more spiritually beneficial and rewarding than wearing a cilice - perhaps others disagree.

Finally, I certainly second Fr Serpa’s advice to spend some time with the Blessed Sacrament or before a crucifix, meditating on the sufferings of our Lord.

 

[Monica4316]

I saw in the Ask an Apologist section that Fr. Serpa addressed a question about a cilice. His advice was vaguely against it, saying to focus on Christ rather than on one’s self.

I was only remotely aware that these devices existed and found the question and post very interesting.

My questions are:

1. Do any of you use these? How have you incorporated them into your spirituality?
2. Do any of you oppose the use of these? Why?

In both questions I am not referring to devices that cause much harm, merely discomfort.

Also, this is just a topic of interest. I am not the poster of the question to Fr. Serpa nor am I looking to use one at the moment. I just curious about the practice itself as well as objects to it.

I don’t practice corporal mortification, but I think it’s alright to do IF the person is advised so by their spiritual director. Many of the Saints have stated the spiritual mortification is more effective and safer because it doesn’t present such a temptation to pride. However, there were Saints who were given permission to practice corporal mortification as well, whether using a cilice or other devices. Some, like St Rose of Lima, St Dominic, and others, went beyond simply causing discomfort, but - they are Saints There are some religious orders (of a more traditional nature) that practice corporal mortification as well. In general, the consensus seems to be that it’s something only to be considered under the guidance of a spiritual director, and if he says not to do it, then don’t do it. St Gemma asked to use a discipline, I think, and her SD said no, and she obeyed. The enemy tried to get her to disobey by appearing as Christ and telling her to do it but she saw through the deception. If a person is humble enough and has permission to practice mortification, then it is alright imo…

I’ve been thinking about what Fr Serpa said, and I think that’s a good point because it protects against pride. Corporal mortification is not for everyone… it’s best to just focus on Christ and He will direct you in the right way.

God bless

 

[Monica4316]

In a retreat given by Archbishop Sheen a few years befor his death, he mentioned hair-shirts, saying that these days we don’t need them because our neighbours are hair-shirts!

hahahah I love Archbishop Sheen

 

[Shin]

People who practice corporal mortification properly are also properly reluctant to speak about their personal experiences, lest they lose their reward.

But for people to boast they do none… well it is not holy to do so, it is quite the opposite.

The saints are not so extraoardinary in what mortification is called for people to do as some would like to think. Rather, in these times, people are too greatly concerned with the body and too much afraid of pain, when pain is necessary for spiritual improvement in so many cases.

Yes, directly causing pain can benefit a person spiritually. It can kill the passions, and it can do penance needed before God. A balanced individual can see whether his spiritual life and mental health benefit or do not from certain kinds of mortification. All can benefit from some kind of corporal mortification and in fact it is necessary to some degree for all.

"One of the primary effects of mortification is detachment, sometimes called holy indifference. Detachment is an indifference, in the appetitive faculties, in relation to a created object. Detachment has as its finality perfect charity. (80) Detachment for the sensitive appetites consists in the cessation of all antecedent appetite. However detachment is principally in the concupiscible appetite with respect to the passion of love. With perfect detachment in the concupiscible appetite, the appetite does not incline when its object comes into the imagination until reason indicates that it is to be pursued. Mortification causes detachment in relation to the passion of love by quieting the appetite through its opposite, i.e. pain.

Detachment is absolutely necessary to obtain perfect mental health in relation to any created good."

Fr. Chad Ripperger, PhD, F.S.S.P., ‘Introduction to the Science of Mental Health’

These are times when it can be hard to find a good spiritual director. There are many in fact, who are quite bad, and who would never advise it – which is a grave error. The idea that one should not practice any corporal mortification at all without a director is false. It can be done properly, it can be done improperly. It is good to have a good spiritual director. This is not always possible. But corporal mortification is something that must be, to some degree, a part of every person’s spiritual life. The degree depends on the person and surrounding circumstances.

Some people are mentally ill in a way that would cause certain kinds of mortification to be bad for them. Some people are imprudent and would do mortifications for the wrong reasons. These exceptions to the general rule do not mean corporal mortification must not be done at all, even in them, but the kinds must be suited to the person so it does not exacerbate.

A hairshirt is not something that is going to harm most people. It’s irritating, but a scapular itself is made of wool. A belt with metal protrusions that are uncomfortable is not something that is going to harm most people. A stick or belt taken to the back does no lasting harm. These practices are not reserved only to the saints, but if you wish to become one you had best consider them.

Everyone in Heaven is a saint.

In the world the sport of boxing is very popular. It is enjoyable to be a boxer. Enjoyable but painful. Most athletic sports are painful to some degree. The world admires people who do these painful things for the sake of sport, but condemns them for the sake of God.

God says the effeminate will not go to Heaven, but to Hell.

Judge responsibly whether you are balanced and healthy enough for the stronger mortifications to benefit your spiritual health, and most definitely practice the lesser ones to the degree of your capacity as well, whether it is waking in the middle of the night to pray, sitting in an uncomfortable place, not turning the heat or a/c on to your comfort level, fasting, and so forth.

 

[LilyM]

I don’t see anyone on this thread boasting that they do no corporal mortification. Some of us have said we don’t use the cilice, which is only one form. That’s to say nothing about other forms of corporal mortification - I’ve denied myself food, denied myself sleep in order to spend time in prayer, and things like that.

In fact everyone who follows Church precepts and fasts and abstains on the days mandated practices some level of corporal mortification, which concept does not simply mean physically causing the body pain as you seem to think it does.

Corporal means bodily, true, but ANYTHING which mortifies (denies or deprives) the body is corporal mortification. So fasting and abstaining are forms of corporal mortification. They subdue the bodily appetites by denying the body something it wants or needs (be it meat or other foods, or food in general).

And no-one here is saying people can practice NO mortification without guidance by a spiritual director, just unusual or unusually harsh mortifications, of which the cilice is one.

Moderate fasting and abstinence would be fine in someone who is generally healthy. I’ve gone some long periods without chocolate, sugar and other sweets (including artificial sweetners) as an example. Of course I didn’t need the advice of a spiritual director or doctor for that.

 

[Shin]

I don’t see anyone on this thread boasting that they do no corporal mortification.

Alright, fair enough.

‘We give our youth to the devil, and the remains of our life to the Good God, who is so good that He deigns to be content with even that. . . but, happily, everyone does not do so. A great lady has been here, of one of the first families in France; she went away this morning. She is scarcely three-and-twenty, and she is rich-very rich indeed. . . She has offered herself in sacrifice to the good God for the expiation of sins, and for the conversion of sinners. She wears a girdle all armed with iron points; she mortifies herself in a thousand ways; and her parents know nothing of it. She is white as a sheet of paper. Hers is a beautiful soul, very pleasing to the good God, such as are still to be found now and then in the world, and they prevent the world from coming to an end.’

‘There were two saints in the desert, who had sewed thorns into all their clothes; and we seek for nothing but comfort!’

‘There was once a solitary who had built himself a royal palace in the trunk of an oak-tree; he had placed thorns inside of it, and he had fastened three stones over his head, so that when he raised himself or turned over he might feel the stones or the thorns. And we, we think of nothing but finding good beds, that we may sleep at our ease.’

‘Our body is a vessel of corruption; it is meant for death and for the worms, nothing more! And yet we devote ourselves to satisfying it, rather than to enriching our soul, which is so great that we can conceive nothing greater – no, nothing, nothing!’

‘You must either suffer in this life or give up the hope of seeing God in Heaven. Sufferings and persecutions are of the greatest avail to us, because we can find therein a very efficient means to make atonement for our sins, since we are bound to suffer for them either in this world or in the next.’

St. Jean Marie Vianney

‘Exterior mortification is the conquering of the sensual appetites. Worldlings call the saints cruel, because they deny their bodies all sensual gratifications, and afflict themselves with hair-shirts, disciplines and penances. But St. Bernard says that those are much more cruel towards themselves, who for the sake of the momentary pleasures of this world, condemn themselves to the eternal torments of the next. Others say that the body should be denied all forbidden pleasure, but despise exterior mortifications, saying that interior mortification alone is necessary, that is, the mortification of the will. Yes, it is in the first place necessary to mortify the will, but it is also necessary to mortify the flesh; because if the flesh be not mortified, it will have great difficulty in being obedient to God. St. John of the Cross says, that he who teaches that exterior mortification is not necessary is not to be believed, although he should perform miracles.’

St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori

 

[Monica4316]

I have absolutely no problem with corporal mortification… I’m just afraid that it might cause a temptation to pride I don’t think I’m spiritually mature enough for it… sometimes I feel drawn to penance or mortification - not the cilice but fasting, abstaining from sleep to pray, etc, - but I’m afraid to be lead astray… one time I was fasting and got tempted to pride, and I think I should avoid that. But I guess this is what spiritual directors are for spiritual mortification is also always good to practice, - like being patient with people who are annoying, etc.

 

[Chiltepin]

People who practice corporal mortification properly are also properly reluctant to speak about their personal experiences, lest they lose their reward.

OH!! Good Point. I don’t know why I didn’t think of that. I am sorry if anyone was offended by my asking.

Thank you everyone for your answers and careful explanations of mortification.

Another question: The concerns about pride… I don’t understand how it becomes an issue of pride if proper corporal mortification involves keeping it more or less to one’s self. Can someone please explain that to me? Would it be a situation where someone was trying to prove to themselves that they are holy? Is that how it would become an issue of pride?

From this point forward I am not asking about any personal experiences, only corporal mortification in the abstract.

 

[Shin]

I have absolutely no problem with corporal mortification… I’m just afraid that it might cause a temptation to pride I don’t think I’m spiritually mature enough for it… sometimes I feel drawn to penance or mortification - not the cilice but fasting, abstaining from sleep to pray, etc, - but I’m afraid to be lead astray… one time I was fasting and got tempted to pride, and I think I should avoid that. But I guess this is what spiritual directors are for spiritual mortification is also always good to practice, - like being patient with people who are annoying, etc.

Where there is no will to pride, there is no pride. The temptation is not the will. Fight the temptation and go on despite it. Before you begin the act you determine that you do it for God. There is not a problem. The determination has been made.

If the devil can stop you from doing good things with temptations, then what good things will you do? Only what he does not tempt you about, which in turn of course, is nothing of much use.

Mortification is not meant to be pleasant.

Don’t be a too fragile flower that’s blossoms are blown away before they bring joy to anyone. Do you want to be like the lady St. Jean Marie Vianney described, or like the rest of the world?

If you could be like her, you would have my whole hearted love, support, and prayers in the endeavor. And I am certain the grace of saints, angels, indeed Heaven behind it all.

This is what God sends angels with firey swords shouting “Penance” to the world for. And it is not enough, not for what is happening in these times.

There’s no pride in doing proper penance, because you know the reason it has to be done.
You are nothing. God does everything.

If everyone who read this thread took a stick to his back tonight, even for ten minutes, the world would be a better place. And for God’s sake I wish people would do it.

‘There is more security in self-denial, mortification, and other like virtues, than in an abundance of tears.’

St. Teresa of Jesus

 

[Shin]

OH!! Good Point. I don’t know why I didn’t think of that. I am sorry if anyone was offended by my asking.

Thank you everyone for your answers and careful explanations of mortification.

Another question: The concerns about pride… I don’t understand how it becomes an issue of pride if proper corporal mortification involves keeping it more or less to one’s self. Can someone please explain that to me? Would it be a situation where someone was trying to prove to themselves that they are holy? Is that how it would become an issue of pride?

From this point forward I am not asking about any personal experiences, only corporal mortification in the abstract.

I don’t know, perhaps someone else can say?.. but I suppose some would say, “I accomplished this great thing” upon doing one thing or another.

If you look at what penances are given in purgatory, do those, and then be tempted by pride, if you have time.

It is good to be happy and give gratitude to God for being able to do something. We can do nothing good without God. So we can’t ignore the good that is truly done, as if He did not help, and so, have no gratitude. And at the same time, we cannot ascribe any of it to ourselves.

On the other hand the reasons for penance would usually be enough I think to kill pride. Because no one ever does enough, and the reason we have to do it is sin. The penances actually due sins are much greater than are commonly given in the confessionals today… years for single sins often enough. So people who think “I have done enough”, well… No.

When indulgences and others make up the penance for your sins… that’s made up for with the penances saints and Christ did. Justice is still done. Someone pays the price – just not -you-. How can you feel good about your performance in such a case? In other words, -they- took the lash, they take -your penalty-, and bleed instead of you. So if, after indulgences or some such thing you think, ‘well perhaps I have made up all my penances’, at some point, and even if it were true… How can you say that you truly have done enough, when someone else has made up for what you were supposed to do by being crucified for you? Shouldn’t you be doing the same for others at the least?

'Penitents who wickedly desire the goods fo another should receive a penance of three years.

Any child who strikes their parents should receive a penance for seven years.

Penitents who eat meat during Lent, without good cause, should not be permitted to receive Holy Communion at Easter.’

Archbishop St. Charles Borromeo, ‘Instructions to Confessors’

St. Charles lived during the 1500’s. People who think penance was strong in the early Church then disappeared, are incorrect. Its disappearance is relatively recent, and not of divine origin. Angels are sent shouting ‘Penance’ to this world.

So as you can see… traditional penance has from the beginning been stronger than in these unusually apostasy filled times. We do not do enough.

We need to.

Beginning mortification is hard. It’s supposed to be. That’s why it’s called ‘mortification’.

 

[Monica4316]

OH!! Good Point. I don’t know why I didn’t think of that. I am sorry if anyone was offended by my asking.

Thank you everyone for your answers and careful explanations of mortification.

Another question: The concerns about pride… I don’t understand how it becomes an issue of pride if proper corporal mortification involves keeping it more or less to one’s self. Can someone please explain that to me? Would it be a situation where someone was trying to prove to themselves that they are holy? Is that how it would become an issue of pride?

From this point forward I am not asking about any personal experiences, only corporal mortification in the abstract.

I think it can be a temptation to pride even if you keep it to yourself… ie: thinking: “Im so much like the Saints, I’m practicing mortification, etc”. it doesn’t really work if you remember your sins though…

Where there is no will to pride, there is no pride. The temptation is not the will. Fight the temptation and go on despite it. Before you begin the act you determine that you do it for God. There is not a problem. The determination has been made.

If the devil can stop you from doing good things with temptations, then what good things will you do? Only what he does not tempt you about, which in turn of course, is nothing of much use.

Mortification is not meant to be pleasant.

Don’t be a too fragile flower that’s blossoms are blown away before they bring joy to anyone. Do you want to be like the lady St. Jean Marie Vianney described, or like the rest of the world?

If you could be like her, you would have my whole hearted love, support, and prayers in the endeavor. And I am certain the grace of saints, angels, indeed Heaven behind it all.

This is what God sends angels with firey swords shouting “Penance” to the world for. And it is not enough, not for what is happening in these times.

There’s no pride in doing proper penance, because you know the reason it has to be done.
You are nothing. God does everything.

If everyone who read this thread took a stick to his back tonight, even for ten minutes, the world would be a better place. And for God’s sake I wish people would do it.

‘There is more security in self-denial, mortification, and other like virtues, than in an abundance of tears.’

St. Teresa of Jesus

that’s a good point to not let temptation prevent us from doing good things that might be one of the devil’s attacks to discourage us…

I really want to have a pure heart before God and to be humble, and to be able to do penance for sin in a selfless way, for love of God… maybe it might help to remember my own sinfulness, and to offer penance not just for sins of others, but also my own sins. And to just do it for God, to look at Him, not at myself. I think this might help to fight the temptation… I see the importance of it… Our Lady of Fatima told us to do penance for sinners

 

[Stylites]

I would agree with what Lily said. I have never used a cilice, nor do I intend to. It would most certainly be important to seek advice from spiritual directors, doctors, etc. before using such a device. I wouldn’t dismiss the cilice outright, but it would be important to ensure that the motiviation for using one is purely spiritual.

In a retreat given by Archbishop Sheen a few years befor his death, he mentioned hair-shirts, saying that these days we don’t need them because our neighbours are hair-shirts! I think he’s right - anyone living in and interacting with the real world will have their patience, generosity, faith etc. tested many times a day. Perhaps my younger brother is a hair-shirt; maybe it’s the unhelpful assistant in the supermarket; for those who drive, the hair-shirt may be another road user…There are many struggles and discomforts that we all have to face, and my personal view would be that being charitable towards someone who makes it very difficult to be charitable would likely be more spiritually beneficial and rewarding than wearing a cilice - perhaps others disagree.

I’ve heard it said that marriage is the highest form of self-mortification - a person has to selflessly live for the other rather than for oneself.

.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Regarding the issue of pride resulting for mortifications, I think it’s very important to have the right motives for pursuing any given mortification. Saint Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 13:3, “If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.” Any mortification we engage in must be undertaken out of love. Love must also determine the extent of the mortification.

If we are undertaking a mortification for the sake of legalism (unless we can only unlovingly obey the Church’s required mortifications), it is a mistake to practice the mortification.

Colossians 2:20-23 criticizes asceticism practiced for the sake of legalism.
Colossians 2:20-23:

20
If you died with Christ to the elemental powers of the world, why do you submit to regulations as if you were still living in the world?
21
“Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”
22
These are all things destined to perish with use; they accord with human precepts and teachings.
23
While they have a semblance of wisdom in rigor of devotion and self-abasement (and) severity to the body, they are of no value against gratification of the flesh.

Thus mortification should not be engaged in because we feel we have to, but because we desire to give it out of love. Mortifications must be given willingly and gladly, out of love, as Paul teaches in the following passage.
2 Cor. 9:7:

Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

If we cannot willingly and lovingly offer a mortification, we should not give it. We should not push ourselves to mortify ourselves beyond what our love and willingness of heart can offer. This can be harmful to us, making devotion to God a burden rather than a blessing, and potentially burning us out.

What we want to be is a log in the Fire of God. The log catches fire slowly, even as souls undergoing mortification for love of God usually start small and grow over time. One mortification undertaken through love leads to deeper love which leads in time to deeper mortification, but slowly, one step at a time, like a log catching flame. The log also burns steadily once it catches fire, it lasts, and it becomes the heart of the fire.

A handful of straw thrown in a fire, on the other hand, catches all aflame in an instant and is consumed. This is a soul that pushes itself into mortifications that are beyond its capacity to lovingly and humbly offer. It might press itself forward out of legalism or out of a sense that this is the way to sainthood, pursued out of a desire for one’s own glory rather than God’s. The latter motivation can lead to selfishness and pride, and the former motivation can lead to the sense that one’s relationship with God is a burden. Practicing mortification out of a sense of obligation or duty rather than love can make one’s devotion to God feel like a heavy weight on the soul rather than a source of peace and freedom.

Jesus said the following in Matthew 11:29-30.

“Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

Jesus’ yoke is easy and His burden light because each mortification we take on is taken on for love. What we do out of love is not a burden but a blessing. We should not try to force this love, but should foster it gently and let it grow naturally with a genuine appreciation of God’s goodness.
Song of Songs 8:4:

Daughters of Jerusalem, I charge you: Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires.

The love grows naturally as one’s relationship with God deepens. We should not try to push this love by taking on mortifications without love. Rather, we should wait until love wakens itself and then should follow where it leads, to the extent that it leads, wherever it takes us but no further. “Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires.”

The instant we cease to offer our mortification with love but instead find ourselves offering it out of legalism, selfishness or pride, we had best stop the mortification until love is restored. Where love guides, let us follow, but where it shrinks, let us wait and pray.
Isaiah 40:31:

Yet those who wait for the LORD
Will gain new strength;
They will mount up with wings like eagles,
They will run and not get tired,
They will walk and not become weary.

In this way, waiting for the Lord’s time and sacrificing in His way, doing all things out of love, we will dwell in freedom and peace, and all burdens will become light. Then we will grow steadily in both holiness and love.

 

[Shin]

We must do everything out of proper intentions and motivations.

I am reminded of Confession with imperfect contrition… it is still good.

It is a concern that so many people have so many warnings about something which has been part of the standard practice of devout Catholics since time immemorial, only falling away in such times as these of great laxity.

Too many warnings do not help, they hurt.

What we regard as extraordinary… . has been in the past as a rule, regarded as ordinary. That is, the discipline, etc.

So… warnings are all good and fine… but too many warnings and too little encouragement… that is a problem too, of fundamental approach and attitude… and does not serve the essential matter of restoring the penance most definitely needed in these times.

If people think they need to make a bunch of warnings to establish credit with human respect which has problems with mortification… well… human respect is just that. We don’t cater to it if we love God.

Our fundamental approach to penance should be: it is good, and necessary, and encouraged. And that includes corporal mortification, on a level of which the fallen away societies of today are not familiar with, but which Christian society is quite familiar with.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

My own disposition is to strongly agree with you, Shin. That’s what I would naturally desire because I yearn for the spirit of sacrifice both in myself to a saintly extent, and throughout the Catholic Church in general.

Yet due caution is valuable, however much I might want to throw it aside.

In the Medieval Ages, corporal mortification was probably a lot more common than it is today among religious orders. I don’t think it was ever common among the laity, though, except perhaps during the Early Church era.

St. Francis de Sales wrote the “Introduction to the Devout Life” for ordinary Catholics. He has pages on fasting, and he recommends that all Catholics practice fasting on a few days beyond what the Church requires. He recommends abstinence on Wednesdays, Fridays and Saturdays, following the example of the Early Christians. He only includes one brief paragraph about the discipline, hairshirts and the like. His remarks on fasting are very intriguing, focused on people making their duties in life their fast more than going without food. He focuses on balance, recommends trying to change our heart attitudes as a better alternative to going without food in a number of cases, and he provides many practical words of caution.

His paragraph on the more severe corporal disciplines does not indicate that they should be generally practiced, unless on certain rare days. Here’s what he says about these disciplines.

“The discipline has a surprising effect in rousing the taste for devotion, if used moderately. The body is greatly subdued by the use of the hair shirt, but it is not fit for ordinary people, married persons, those who are delicate, or who have to bear considerable fatigue. On certain days of special penitence it may be used, subject to the counsel of a judicious Confessor.”

~St. Francis de Sales.

He mentions that in the case of many people, it is not wise that they practice such severe disciplines.

However, I think he has specific, practical reasons for singling out these groups. His reason for singling out “ordinary people” may indeed refer to what I was saying about making all sacrifices for love. I know that I couldn’t offer these severe mortifications with willingness and love at present, so they wouldn’t likely benefit me. The one who offers such mortifications must have a very great love. Perhaps that is what St. Francis de Sales is talking about here.

When he singles out married persons, the delicate or those who have very fatiguing occupations, it seems clear that he singles them out because their state in life or their condition makes such mortifications inadvisable.

The mortification itself, to him, is good, but it would need to be practiced with strong and willing love (not something most ordinary Catholics can do) and should not be practiced by people who cannot handle it or in which it would interfere with their duties.

Francis’ statement certainly does urge caution, and he urges that when such disciplines are used, for many people they should only be used on certain days of penitence. In view of his caution, it seems to me most wise that many Catholics here urge caution strongly as well.

Myself, I would love to just plunge on ahead and have the majority of Catholics practicing such austerities, and everyone doing it with a passionate love to match the severity of their discipline, but I think that is me being young and reckless. My spiritual director has forbidden some of my own plans for mortification before for that reason. And another time I tried a difficult mortification and wasn’t expecting it to be so hard, so I gave up very quickly and made it easier for myself. I saw it as very important to only offer God those sacrifices I can willingly offer Him for love of Him, and I couldn’t give so much that time, willingly. I still see it that way. I believe St. Francis that most “ordinary Catholics” should not undergo these severe penances, except perhaps on special days of penance like Good Friday or Holy Thursday. Yet I still aspire to them and believe that through seeking God and growing in His love, He will one day give me them.

Shin:

So… warnings are all good and fine… but too many warnings and too little encouragement… that is a problem too, of fundamental approach and attitude… and does not serve the essential matter of restoring the penance most definitely needed in these times.

I strongly agree with this. There should be encouragement as well as warnings. Such mortifications should not be seen as unreachable or undesirable. They should be a goal for many people, I believe, for they are a wonderful means of uniting oneself to God.

I believe this is especially true for religious orders. I would personally love to see the religious orders swept with a return to the old disciplines and sacrifices.

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

My dear friend

The toughest mortification is to do a lot of little continual mortifications. Even tougher than big ones.

God bless you:thumbsup:

John

 

[Lief_Erikson]

My dear friend

The toughest mortification is to do a lot of little continual mortifications. Even tougher than big ones.

God bless you:thumbsup:

John

St. Francis de Sales also focuses on the value of lots of little mortifications in “Introduction to the Devout Life.” I think you make a very good point.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

The Early Church era is the only time I know of in which severe mortifications like hair shirts and the discipline were common among the laity. Though in the Medieval Ages, these remained common among many religious orders.

I wonder if perhaps now is a time where such penances should become common among the laity once again, as they were during the Early Church’s deep fervor. Our age is more degraded and wicked than any since the Roman Empire. The centuries have become increasingly wicked since the Reformation first shattered Christendom.

Ordinary Catholics (decidedly including me) are probably not ready for such mortifications. St. Francis de Sales makes a very good point. Highly passionate love must preceed and inspire such rigorous penances. These sacrifices cannot be properly made without great love, as St. Paul warns.

While I would love to see ordinary Catholics all over the world taking up this practice through love, even as in the days of the Early Church, I believe the way to reach such a state is St. Therese of Lisieux’s Little Way. Small mortifications offered with love lead to deepened love that can willingly offer greater mortifications. This in turn leads to still deeper and deeper love.

The religious orders especially, more than anyone else, should lead the charge in envigorating this spirit of sacrifice. Spiritual directors also should be open to these possibilities.

The way to spreading these mortifications is not to simply start wearing a hair shirt and urging others to do likewise. That approach doesn’t take into account the differences between people’s spiritual conditions. As we are all agreed, the guidance of a spiritual director is a must in these circumstances.

What I think we should be doing is praying and seeking to inspire other souls with deeper love for God, and urging them to take on St. Therese of Lisieux’s Little Way. This pathway, when trod to its conclusion, can often lead to great, great love and correspondingly vast mortifications undertaken gladly for love, as the saints did.

Here’s a quote from Wikipedia about St. Therese, perhaps describing the result of the passionate love her Little Way created in her own soul?

During the later part of the nineteenth century, Saint Thérèse of the Child Jesus, another Doctor of the Church, at three years of age was described by her mother: "Even Thérèse is anxious to practice mortification.” And Thérèse later wrote: "My God, I will not be a saint by halves. I am not afraid of suffering for Thee.” The “Little Flower”, famous for her “little way” and love of God—fasted and used the ‘discipline’ vigorously, “scourging herself with all the strength and speed of which she was capable, smiling at the crucifix through the tears which bedewed her eyelashes,” according to one of her biographers.

In the end, she offered herself up as a victim holocaust to God, enduring ferocious torments through tuberculosis before death.

This ardor was at least partly the result, I think, of her faithful practice of the Little Way.

I’m not sure I’m right in this post, but I propose these ideas.