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tonyrey
Guest
There are many truths that are not written in the Bible but it is absurd to think Jesus would tell His followers to take the Good News to the ends of the earth if there were no guarantee they would tell the truth!
Circular logic, lack of falsifiability and Church teaching Truth?
- Status
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Lisa44
Guest
So you agree that papal infallability is not in the bible?There are many truths that are not written in the Bible but it is absurd to think Jesus would tell His followers to take the Good News to the ends of the earth if there were no guarantee they would tell the truth!
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tonyrey
Guest
It is implicit in the words of Jesus:So you agree that papal infallibility is not in the bible?
"He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: **for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, **but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
There can be no doubt as to the vocation of Peter and his successors!
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Benadam
Guest
It’s in the bible.
It seemed like someone was wrong here.
[7]* They say to him: Why then did Moses command to give a bill of divorce, and to put away? [8] He saith to them: Because Moses by reason of the hardness of your heart permitted you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.*
So the authority of Moses was not in question in the mind of Jesus.
Also:
[1]* Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to his disciples, [2] Saying: The scribes and the Pharisees have sitten on the chair of Moses. [3] All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not; for they say, and do not. *
This is Jesus respect for the authority of the chair of Moses.
So it seems the infaliability of a teaching office is biblical.
It seemed like someone was wrong here.
[7]* They say to him: Why then did Moses command to give a bill of divorce, and to put away? [8] He saith to them: Because Moses by reason of the hardness of your heart permitted you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.*
So the authority of Moses was not in question in the mind of Jesus.
Also:
[1]* Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to his disciples, [2] Saying: The scribes and the Pharisees have sitten on the chair of Moses. [3] All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not; for they say, and do not. *
This is Jesus respect for the authority of the chair of Moses.
So it seems the infaliability of a teaching office is biblical.
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Lisa44
Guest
Thank you for the scripture.
Here’s the thing, I’m reading chapter 16 and its not an easy chapter. And this is one thing that I find striking.
Lets suppose that you are correct and he is declaring Peter to be infallible (and his successors) and that they are the foundation for the church.
Right after that, Jesus yells at Peter and tells him that he is basically fallible:
“Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.”
So its a bit odd. If the interpretation you are suggesting is what is meant. It is odd that he would declare Peter to be the foundation of the church and then tell Peter what an idiot he is. That would be akin to Jesus saying he was founding his church on an idiot.
What comes off the page for me is that Peter makes a confession of faith in Jesus and then Jesus says upon this rock he will build his church. To me, he is saying that upon Peter’s faith and confession he will build the church. And it seems to me that hell cannot prevail against this faith. So it is the faith that the church is built upon.
Then you have the issue of the keys, which I presume to be a metaphor, and not literal keys to heaven which Jesus says will bind in heaven what he binds on earth and loose in heaven what he looses on earth.
Which I take to mean the faith again, which will either deliver one to heaven, or it will not if you lose it.
And I think that is correct because the last bit of the chapter Jesus says that each person will be rewarded for what he has done.
So it seems to me that the most important thing here is faith in Jesus. And it is this faith that guides and protects the church. Not that Peter or any bishop has some mystical power to be free from all errors.
And in fact, if Jesus sends his Spirit to those who believe in him, then it is the Spirit that is keeping the faithful (out of Hades) and not a particular bishop.
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Lisa44
Guest
Yes, respect for Moses and for the faith but also he is saying that Moses was wrong to let you have divorces and he is saying that the pharisees are also wrong and don’t do what they do.
So it is saying that they are NOT infallible even though they hold positions of authority within the church/religion.
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Lisa44
Guest
Hi, you said “and even Jesus made mistakes…”… dear bohm ,
… i’lll put aside my faith belief for a moment to discuss this with you from a purely human perspective and not through the eyes of faith , let’s say popes can make mistakes even speaking ex cathedra , is it so unbelievable if it were true ??? , no , it is not , the normal process for all human learning is that we make mistakes as we learn from trial and error , mistakes are just a part of the human learning process , mistake = learning , it’s possible the church does not yet realise that even popes must learn from mistakes and even progressively through the popes , inspired writings like the bible contains mistakes like the 7 day account of creation and there are endless references to mistakes , but inerrancy in the bible and consequently apostolic tradition takes into account mans normal modus operandi that he must learn from mistakes , mistake does not = error at all , even if a pope / s made a mistake it only becomes error if the pope knows it and does not correct the mistake , so even if papal infallibility was misunderstood because the pope must operate like a man and is not a purely divine instrument unable to make mistakes even when speaking ex cathedra it does not mean the church is in error at all , and even jesus made mistakes and the pope is the sweet christ on earth so it is possible there is some truth in what i say , the only being guaranteed to never make any mistakes as i see it is god in heaven , this is because he knows weverything – no exceptions , and if you don’t know absolutely all you will make mistakes , but mistake does not = error , as said , not church teaching , my own thoughts that may help your q , not necessarily my faith either , but some conjecture , as i am not necessarily the official voice of the church like the holy father , hope this helps dear friend ,
… may god bless and love you
… john …
Are you sure?
What mistakes did he make?
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1sicht
Guest
Thanks for that reference, Lisa. It ended up leading me to a whole slew of applicable sites (see URLS at bottom of post). I found this an especially revealing example:
tinyurl.com/66wvfuj
tinyurl.com/65etekj
tinyurl.com/3f7efrq
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1sicht
Guest
There can be “no doubt”** only** if you accept the RC interpretation of this passage, as you obviously do. So, nothing but another example of circular reasoning. A Protestant would say:
“keys of the kingdom” refers to the proclaiming of the Gospel, i.e. “whosoever accepts the Gospel [Jesus’ Atonement & Resurrection] you guys [Apostles] proclaim, shall be found in the Book of Life; whosoever refuses, shall not be found there.”
Vs. 18: Scriptural context! “Rock” occurs all over the Bible: God is the Rock (O.T.) and Jesus is the Rock (N.T.), and Peter calls Christians (!!!) “lively stones,” the building blocks of The Temple of God Paul refers to in Corinthians. Jesus Himself is the cornerstone, so how can Peter be?
As for Vs. 17, it simply teaches the same thing as these:
. (John 1:12-13)
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buffalo
Guest
Had we not had Revelation it would be circular. SInce we do, we jump out of circularity.
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1sicht
Guest
Huh? 
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RyanK
Guest
Lisa44, are you actually catholic? I’m curious because your religious status says you are but a lot of things you are saying are completely against the Catholic Church.
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Simpleton
Guest
One would think the Scriptures he wrote and that you take as the Word of God would be evidence enough (at least to a Christian) that He had infallibility.
J
John_Russell_Jr
Guest
… my dear friend ,Hi, you said “and even Jesus made mistakes…”
Are you sure?
What mistakes did he make?
… i knew i should explain this but i will now , jesus was a man like us in all things but sin , he was true god and true man , there is the tendency to delete all humanity from him leaving only his divinity which people believe cannot make mistakes , but jesus like all men had to make mistakes as he learnt from trial and error , he was like a super saint if you like who god joined himself to par excellence to the point he can be called god rightly or the god man , but still truly human , some eg’s are his findinig in the temple at 12 after 3 days , what a shocking thing to do to his parents , making them worry sick they may have nearly died it would have been so bad and all he had to do was tell them where he would be , but he knew his mistake and was subject to them after that , and mary marveled that god could make a mistake and pondered it in her heart as a mystery , jesus destroyed that tree that still had no fruit on it , the one where we get the saying any tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down , but the tree did nothing wrong , why would god do this , it makes no sense except that jesus lost his temper and the trree copped it – true providence took advantage of it i know , but still a mistake , in teachings let us look at that foreign woman who begged jesus for help and he said it is not right to give the childrens food to dogs , he called the poor woman a dog , a derogatory remark in any age or place – a mistake , jesus is showing his humanity , there would obviously have been many other times jesus made mistakes eg falling or tripping over , hit his thumb with a hammer , looked in the wrong cupboard , walked somewhere the wrong way and got lost etc etc etc all mistakes , mistakes = human , and not = error or evil necessarily so mind you , to finish off i think many people try to remove the humanity from our clergy and religious with regards sexual attraction etc and they are not angels or god or computerised robots , but flesh and blood men and women , catholics scandalised by them showing any signs of lawful human sexuality should wake up and stop this , i mention that for others who may read this not so much you dear friend , and finally – god in heaven and jesus in heaven cannot make mistakes as they know all , you can only make mistakes if you don’t know all , and i guess man can too if he trips etc etc etc as i explain , you get the idea dear friend , this is where i’m coming from , don’t be scandalised at all , it’s all perfectly fine and human ,
… may god bless and love you
,… john …
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Lisa44
Guest
Thank you for the links 1sicht
The article from the apologetics press ‘Is the Pope Infallible’ is especially interesting.
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Lisa44
Guest
Hi John,… my dear friend ,
… i knew i should explain this but i will now , jesus was a man like us in all things but sin , he was true god and true man , there is the tendency to delete all humanity from him leaving only his divinity which people believe cannot make mistakes , but jesus like all men had to make mistakes as he learnt from trial and error , he was like a super saint if you like who god joined himself to par excellence to the point he can be called god rightly or the god man , but still truly human , some eg’s are his findinig in the temple at 12 after 3 days , what a shocking thing to do to his parents , making them worry sick they may have nearly died it would have been so bad and all he had to do was tell them where he would be , but he knew his mistake and was subject to them after that , and mary marveled that god could make a mistake and pondered it in her heart as a mystery , jesus destroyed that tree that still had no fruit on it , the one where we get the saying any tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down , but the tree did nothing wrong , why would god do this , it makes no sense except that jesus lost his temper and the trree copped it – true providence took advantage of it i know , but still a mistake , in teachings let us look at that foreign woman who begged jesus for help and he said it is not right to give the childrens food to dogs , he called the poor woman a dog , a derogatory remark in any age or place – a mistake , jesus is showing his humanity , there would obviously have been many other times jesus made mistakes eg falling or tripping over , hit his thumb with a hammer , looked in the wrong cupboard , walked somewhere the wrong way and got lost etc etc etc all mistakes , mistakes = human , and not = error or evil necessarily so mind you , to finish off i think many people try to remove the humanity from our clergy and religious with regards sexual attraction etc and they are not angels or god or computerised robots , but flesh and blood men and women , catholics scandalised by them showing any signs of lawful human sexuality should wake up and stop this , i mention that for others who may read this not so much you dear friend , and finally – god in heaven and jesus in heaven cannot make mistakes as they know all , you can only make mistakes if you don’t know all , and i guess man can too if he trips etc etc etc as i explain , you get the idea dear friend , this is where i’m coming from , don’t be scandalised at all , it’s all perfectly fine and human ,
… may god bless and love you
… john …
And what did Jesus say to Mary after they found him in the temple?
Luke 2:49
“Why were you searching for me?” he asked. “Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?”
also, consider Luke 2:43-44
After the Feast was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day.
Who’s mistake was it?
If you give me the scripture for the other two examples then I will examine them.
J
John_Russell_Jr
Guest
, dearest lisa ,Hi John,
And what did Jesus say to Mary after they found him in the temple?
Luke 2:49
“Why were you searching for me?” he asked. “Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?”
also, consider Luke 2:43-44
After the Feast was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day.
Who’s mistake was it?
If you give me the scripture for the other two examples then I will examine them.
… i appreciate your opine but i know all the arguments , just note : perfection or even infinite perfection can and in these cases does incl mistakes , jesus was mistaken about how he went about things but was sill perfect god and perfect man , mistakes are a normal part of human existence , the only thing we can nnever engage in is evil or sin , i know the mentality long established that excludes any possibility jesus could maKE A MISTAKE , BUT AS A MAN HE HAD O , NO CHOICE , AND IS STILL PERFECT GOD AT THE SAME TIME , IT’S NO PROB AT ALL , sorry caps lock went on , it does that , anyway no need to go over the other quotes , i know it all lisa ,
… may god bless and love you
,… john …
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tonyrey
Guest
Peter wasn’t an idiot. He loved his Master and couldn’t bear to think He would be betrayed and killed. It is an understandable reaction which does not undermine his outstanding claim to be the leader of the community. He was impetuous but he was prepared to follow in the footsteps of Jesus and die for his faith. That dedication and courage count far more than the wisdom of this world…
Indeed - on the faith of Saint Peter who remained steadfast until he was imprisoned, crucified and died like his Master…
Why do you have to regard it as a metaphor? There are thousands of Christian sects precisely because others also reject the need for authority.
Faith does not exclude ignorance which makes it more difficult to follow Him.
Faith alone is not enough. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Fanatics have faith but it is distorted and leads to evil consequences.
If they have no mystical power then Jesus was deceiving them when He promised to be with His Church until the end of the world.
It is a Protestant belief that the Church is not inspired by the Holy Spirit yet it was the Church that decided which scriptures were authentic. How else can you discern the true teaching of Jesus?
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James224
Guest
John 21:15 After perfomring 2 miracles, Jesus asks Peter if he loves him 3 times:Thank you for the scripture.
Here’s the thing, I’m reading chapter 16 and its not an easy chapter. And this is one thing that I find striking.
Lets suppose that you are correct and he is declaring Peter to be infallible (and his successors) and that they are the foundation for the church.
Right after that, Jesus yells at Peter and tells him that he is basically fallible:
“Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.”
So its a bit odd. If the interpretation you are suggesting is what is meant. It is odd that he would declare Peter to be the foundation of the church and then tell Peter what an idiot he is. That would be akin to Jesus saying he was founding his church on an idiot.
What comes off the page for me is that Peter makes a confession of faith in Jesus and then Jesus says upon this rock he will build his church. To me, he is saying that upon Peter’s faith and confession he will build the church. And it seems to me that hell cannot prevail against this faith. So it is the faith that the church is built upon.
Then you have the issue of the keys, which I presume to be a metaphor, and not literal keys to heaven which Jesus says will bind in heaven what he binds on earth and loose in heaven what he looses on earth.
Which I take to mean the faith again, which will either deliver one to heaven, or it will not if you lose it.
And I think that is correct because the last bit of the chapter Jesus says that each person will be rewarded for what he has done.
So it seems to me that the most important thing here is faith in Jesus. And it is this faith that guides and protects the church. Not that Peter or any bishop has some mystical power to be free from all errors.
And in fact, if Jesus sends his Spirit to those who believe in him, then it is the Spirit that is keeping the faithful (out of Hades) and not a particular bishop.
v15 1. v15 = Feed = Boskein = Feed (Teach)
v16 2.v16 = Feed = Poimanao = Shepherd or Tend; To Govern. (Sheep)
v17 3. v17 = Feed = Boskein = Feed (Teach) Jesus was emphasizing v15 & v16 again.
Jesus entrusts all his sheep to Peter.
John 10:11 Jesus says he is the shepherd.
John 21:17 Jesus then makes Peter the shepherd.
W
William_of_Ware
Guest
two possible explanations.
Just because the pope can potentially bind or loose anything it does not follow that he will actually do so the point of point of making error.
and/or
The power or loose anything is not really an unqualified power. The pope can bind or loose anything that fulfills God’s providence. After all, our God is not an idle spectator watching from the sidelines.
- Status