Circular Reasoning

[Knowtheledge]

If the Church were to teach a false doctrine, then, yes, Hell would have triumphed over her.

Oh. I always thought of that verse as meaning no matter what happens, Christ will prevail in the end. I don’t really see that verse as meaning the Church is infallible. After all, in 2 Peter it says, “But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up.” So that seems to say there can, and will be, false teachers in the church.

If the Church makes errors, people are led astray and go to Hell. So, no, I don’t think Jesus would allow this.

I’m not saying God would let His church fall and lead everyone to hell, I just don’t think anyone on earth can claim infallibility. And anyway, God allowed Israel’s kings to reject Him, sacrifice to idols, and lead the people to do the same.

If you were taught by the Holy Spirit and reminded of everything that you had learned, would you ever make an error?

Well, Jesus was talking to the disciples, and they later made errors anyway.

No, it doesn’t. Jesus promised this gift of the Spirit to a small group of men who constituted the proto-Magisterium of the Church. The promise was not made out on a hillside to all believers. You have only to examine your own life to know that you are not led into all truth in all things by the Spirit. Additionally, not all denominations can claim this promise since one teaches the baptism of infants for the regeneration of their souls while another teaches against the same thing. The Spirit cannot lead these denominations into contradictory truths.

You say that the “telling what is yet to come” part of the verse only applied to the ones whom Jesus was speaking to, but earlier you seemed to apply the “guiding into all truth” part to the present Church. But that’s not my point. My point is, the Catholic Church claims infallibility, yet how do we know God has granted this to them? Those verses don’t really seem like good evidence to me. They can only justify infallibility if you read them already assuming church infallibility is true. If you read the Bible not knowing of church infallibility, I don’t see how you could arrive at that conclusion.

 

[SteveGC]

They can only justify infallibility if you read them already assuming church infallibility is true. If you read the Bible not knowing of church infallibility, I don’t see how you could arrive at that conclusion.

That’s precisely the point. You’re not supposed to be reading Scripture while “not knowing of The Church”. You were supposed to be within Her bosom. But the “reformers” unfortunately created a division away from The Church, and you are one of millions who have either grown up within that division, or fled to that division because you were improperly catechised. I was one of the former, and realized that Bible-alone Christianity is a myth - that there must be an authoritative body on earth, granted such by Christ Himself, to shepherd the flock unto Truth.

So, of course you have difficulty seeing The Church in Scripture. It’s there, and not really hard to see…but hard to accept if you are heavily influenced by errant Bible-alone theology.

God Bless