circumcision & Catholic teaching ?

[jrabs]

It always amazes me that women have harder time with this than men do. My opinion… let your husband make the decision on whether or not to circumcise a son.

I am amazed as well that I see predominantly women chiming in here with very strong opinions. Where are more men on this issue?

 

[frogman80]

jrabs:

I am amazed as well that I see predominantly women chiming in here with very strong opinions. Where are more men on this issue?

Hehe… my point! My wife and mother and grandmother had a hard time with this too.

 

[jrabs]

frogman80:

Hehe… my point! My wife and mother and grandmother had a hard time with this too.

Fascinating. My husband, dad and grandpa did not have a hard time with the decision. ( I didn’t either actually).

 

[momtofivekids]

I haven’t read all the posts so this may have been brought up already. I have 2 sons one biological one adopted. My adopted son is biracial. His parents(us) are caucation. Do I want either of them to think they need to look like their father? NO!
Neither are circumcised. I’m a nurse and I helped restrain infants during the procedure and I felt it was barbaric.
We talked to our Ped at lenght about it and did some research.
We then made our decision.
I also don’t judge others regarding their decision. It just makes me crazy when people say they want their son to look like them.

 

[rayne89]

I don’t have any sons but if I did they would be circumcised. I believe it’s cleaner, easier to take care of and in my vain opinion it looks better. My husband is, he was not traumatized. But each parent needs to make the discision for their own children. What I don’t like is people who feel one way or the other making the other side out to be bad parents, or even worse that’s it’s sinful.

 

[jess7396]

Ana:

You mentioned a few times on this thread that there is a definite purpose to the foreskin (“even die hard pro-circ people know this”).
Well, I must plead ignorance , would you mind enlightening me as to the purpose of this?

Although I understand, that not every little thing is morally evaluated in the CCC, the fact that the Church has not spoken on this, when it is a factor that will effect many male children … to me says this is a non-issue (of morality.) I was wondering on what basis you think “sin” could be imputed to the decision, whether or not to have your child circumsized? You mentioned that it would be umbrellad under vanity in a previous post (but only if the purpose was to look like daddy) If that were not the reason, but if it was for cultural or medical reasons … what categories of sin would these fall under.

Also, for an example, my husband who was not circ’d, insisted on his son being circ’d. The fact that he was saying this from the perspective of one circumsized carried a lot of weight and to me was very powerful. Not able to be classed under vanity, because it was not a matter of “looking like daddy”, but more a matter of “loving him enough to,” in his opinion.

What if he took the opposite perspective and decided to not have his son circ’d because he wanted to look like daddy … would that also be sinful and be umbrellad under vanity?

I am not trying to bait you. I sincerely want to know your perspective. I certainly understand that people may choose or not to circ, but you are the first I have encountered that claims circ is a sin. Frankly, I am intrigued.

First, the purpose of the foreskin:
~It protects the glans (top of the penis) against urine, feces, and other types of irritation.
~It protects against infection or scarring of the urinary opening (although this is rare).
~It protects the sensitivity of the glans.
~It allows sex to be more comfortable for the woman with less friction.

A page you might want to read, that better explains the function of the foreskin:
twbookmark.com/books/70/0446678805/chapter_excerpt15690.html

As for reasons other than cosmetic being sins- if there is a true medical reason, I see no problem with circumcision, a true medical reason would be that there is something wrong with the penis/foreskin and the circ. would correct that. “Cultural” reasons, IMO, are nothing more than cosmetic, it’s all about wanting the child to fit in. I would think Catholic parents would be less than concerned about “fitting in” when we are hopefully raising children that will not “fit in” to today’s society. I would never do something that was otherwise wrong to my child, just to have them “fit in” to any culture.

As for your husband’s experience, I would be wondering (and I do not want the answers, this is just my thoughts) why he wishes he were circ.ed. Was he teased? Should we perform unnecessary surgical procedures on our sons b/c they might be teased? Shouldn’t we leave that up to them? They can always have themselves circ.ed later on, but if you do it to them as an infant, there is no choice left for them, about their own bodies. Has your husband considered having himself circ.ed?

Why do we (as a society) believe that it is easier on a baby to be strapped down days after birth and have part of their body cut off with little/no anesthesia than it would be for a grown man? If my younger son wants to be circ.ed someday when he is older, he will have that choice ,he will also be put under general anesthesia for it, but, being raised by us, I doubt he’ll desire that . My older son will never have a choice, we took that from him.

If a man decided not to have his son circ.ed b/c he wanted him to look like him, I don’t think that would be sinful, b/c there is no medical reason to do it in the first place. Basically, he wouldn’t be sinning because there is no active role there. If there were solid medical reasoning to do it, and the man refused b/c he wanted his son to look like him, that would be sinful, IMO.

This is one of those things, everyone wants to believe it is “all personal decision”, well, my “personal” opinion is that it can be sinful (given that the parents agree there is not a solid medical reasoning for doing it).

Oh, and as far as the Church not having a specific statement on circumcision when it affects “so many”, 80% of the world’s men are not circumcised, we (in the US) think of it as “so many” when in truth it is not that many at all. Also- it took until this year for the Vatican to make a statement on the issue of aborted fetal cells in certain childhood vaccines, even though it has been know for a few years, lack of a specific statement from the Vatican does not amke things morally neutral.

I hope this clears up my position.

 

[jess7396]

rayne89:

I don’t have any sons but if I did they would be circumcised. I believe it’s cleaner, easier to take care of and in my vain opinion it looks better. My husband is, he was not traumatized. But each parent needs to make the discision for their own children. What I don’t like is people who feel one way or the other making the other side out to be bad parents, or even worse that’s it’s sinful.

Why woulde it bother you that in my personal opinion medically unnecessary, surgical procedures on unwilling newborns could be sinful?

I think people get very bent out of shape about things being called “sinful”, I sin often, earlier, I yelled at one of my kids, totally out of line- it was sinful and I need to be sorry for it, mortal sins are not the only sins, there are everyday sins we all committ. I am NOT saying people who circ. are horrible parents, or awful people, etc. Suggesting that something one does might be sinful is not an insult to that person, it is a judgement on an action.

Are we not all sinners?

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

jess7396:

I can see that you think that, I, of course, disagree . I don’t think the unnecessary removal of a functioning healthy body part is a choice, or personal decision for anyone other than the person it is being done to.

Did you start this thread just for the debate? As I re-read your OP, I assume that is the purpose of the thread, and since I have done that “debate” many times here on CA, I’ll bow out now, unless someone directs something to me.

Actually, I was curious as to everyones reasonings on the questions I posted. I never intended, nor do I now intend, to get in an arguement over this. Just a nice discussion of the topic was my only goal.

I prefer to talk about this when someone is actually looking for information

Really? Because you haven’t given any information other than rather inflamatory comments and it appears that you think people are not interested in “information” unless they agree with your interpretation of how it should be applied.

, as these debates (the circ. debate, the BFing debates, etc.) rarely serve any purpose beyond everyone deciding these are all “personal choices” that hold no moral implications whatsoever.

I don’t think it has to hold a “moral implication” either. Are you honestly saying that a mother who doesn’t bf or does circ. her son is an immoral person?? The needs of the family and the baby are what’s important and a moral parent makes their choices based on that - not some AMA trend report.

ETA: We appear to be cross posting. I would disagree with your views on foreskin purposes, but it appears you have now given some information on possible benefit of the foreskin.

 

[jess7396]

Really? Because you haven’t given any information other than rather inflamatory comments and it appears that you think people are not interested in “information” unless they agree with your interpretation of how it should be applied.

Again, I don’t think calling something a possible sin is inflammatory, but to each her own .
Rob's Wife:

I don’t think it has to hold a “moral implication” either. Are you honestly saying that a mother who doesn’t bf or does circ. her son is an immoral person?? The needs of the family and the baby are what’s important and a moral parent makes their choices based on that - not some AMA trend report.

No, I did not call anyone an “immoral person”, there truly is a difference between saying that something has a “moral implication” and saying the person who does it is “an immoral person”. We all do immoral things now and then, at least I do , I don’t think that makes us “immoral people” you have to do lots of immoral things to get that title .

I do think there is a moral implication to be considered with things like circumcision (since, again, it is not the removal of a skintag, it is the removal of a healthy/functioning body part given to all men by God) and with breastfeeding (ie- the mother who chooses not to BF because she doesn’t want her “boobs to sag”, that mother denies her child the perfect food, given to her by God to be fed to her child). Not all people (or even many, I won’t guess at numbers) who circ. or don’t BF have made a poor moral choice, I am not stating that at all. I am simply saying that there is a moral implication to be considered.

As far as the **“The needs of the family and the baby are what’s important and a moral parent makes their choices based on that - not some AMA trend report.”

(now I don’t know how to get rid of your purple )
I think the design and will of God is what’s important and a moral parents makes their choices based on that.
**

 

[jess7396]

Rob's Wife:

ETA: We appear to be cross posting. I would disagree with your views on foreskin purposes, but it appears you have now given some information on possible benefit of the foreskin.

You said before that I had only posted inflammatory statements and no “information”, I have addressed the people have asked for information on the purpose of the foreskin (As you have now seen) and the person who asked for a statement from the Church. If anyone else wanted information, I would be more than pleased to respond to that.

When I said I prefer talking “information-wise” on this instead of “opinion wise” I was more meaning that I had chosen to come onto a thread where I probably am not at my best, information threads work better for me, people are less likely to be offended .

 

[Petergee]

Steph700:

Does anyone else find it strange that this is predominantly an American phenomenon?

I think that’s because the US has a far stronger fundamentalist tradition than any other country (because most of its founders were members of protestant sects, which splintered into evn more extreme sects because of isolation from the rest of the Christian world) - including the idea that certain Old Testament injunctions must be literally applied to Christians today. Even US Catholics are affected by this prevailing culture.

 

[Kristina_P]

Flopfoot:

As for the hygene factor. As far as I recall, the foreskin is a piece of lymphoid tisse. You have lymphoid tissue everywhere where you have an opening into the body, to stop germs and etc. from getting in - eg, tonsils in the mouth. The foreskin is there to protect the body, so I reckon that it’s actually probably more hygenic to leave the foreskin on.

Just to clarify, the foreskin is just skin, not lymphoid tissue. Also, there’s really no medical evidence for the better hygiene argument, according to what I’ve read and heard. It’s a matter of personal preference, unless you’re Jewish, of course.

 

[astegallrnc]

DH and I had our son circ’d. Yes, DH is and felt his son should be too, but we still reserached the topic. While I was pregnant with DS there was a program on TV discussing/debating the subject. Afterall, I am a RN too, who has strapped babies to the circ board and watched circs, and understand the importance of informed consent. I dragged out my research books and reviewed the literature (preferring primary sources to draw my own conclusions). AND we still had our son circ’d. Princess Abby is correct “that we all take the information we have available and do the best we can with it”… especially the children who have been entrusted to us.

Autumn

 

[Mrs.Adams]

I am new at this. I registered trying to get some answers about the catholics teachings on circumcision. My father who has six grandsons is having a very difficult time accepting the fact that my son who is now 3 1/2 is not curcumcised. I originally wanted him circum. when he was born and when the pediatrician went to do it he couldn’t and told me I needed to have a uroligist perform it. At four months old I took him to get it done. And after talking to the doctor he decided not to do it because of the anesthsia and him having asthma. My father seems to not be able to overlook it. It seems to bother him more than it does me. I always tell him that he is just making a big deal over a little piece of skin. I was very uncomfortable at first about how to care for it. My husband is cirucums. and could not offer me any help. My pediatrician explained to me how to care for it. It is actually very simply and if you teach your child very early they have no problems keeping it clean. My three year old does occasionally notice that daddy’s is different from him but it does not seem to bother him. This is a decision my husband and I have decided to leave up to our son when he gets older.

 

[maryceleste]

jess7396:

First, I made it clear from my first post that this is my opinion, luckily for me, I am in good company:

Originally Posted by Benedictus
From the Council of Florence, Session 11:

“Therefore [the Church] strictly orders all who glory in the name of Christian, not to practise circumcision either before or after baptism, since whether or not they place their hope in it, it cannot possibly be observed without loss of eternal salvation.”

Jess7396 and Benedictus, you’ve neglected to mention why the Council of Florence made the above statement. It was an attempt to deal with certain specific tensions between Christians and Jews in that particular time period. The Council also forbade Christians from having dinner with Jews, or even having “much conversation” with them. Jews were forbidden from receiving academic degrees, required to wear a special identifying garment, and confined to living in ghettos that were far away from churches.

Would you recommend that modern Catholics follow this advice, too? Somehow, I doubt it.

As Catholics, we look to Church teaching as interpreted by the living magisterium. It’s not appropriate for us to quote historical documents out of context, any more than it would be for us to quote Bible verses out of context.

Regarding circumcision, I agree with Rob’s Wife… but I already said my piece in the last thread on the subject. (BTW, I’m happy to see that this thread has been very civil, for the most part. )

 

[mominne]

For anyone interested:

Catholics Against Circumcision
The Circumcision Decision

My oldest is circ’d because I didn’t know better. My husband is also circ’d. My two younger ones are not.

To the poster who would continue to circ just because the older ones are: I don’t think any of the males in our family care that their penises are not identical! If you don’t think it’s the right thing to do, then don’t do it.

In my opinion, parents should watch a circumcision before they decide to do it. It is a painful, horrible procedure. I thought a circumcision was no big deal, I was shocked at the reality of it when I had to care for my oldest son’s injured penis as a newborn infant.

Danielle

 

[luvmykids]

mominne:

For anyone interested:

Catholics Against Circumcision
The Circumcision Decision

My oldest is circ’d because I didn’t know better. My husband is also circ’d. My two younger ones are not.

To the poster who would continue to circ just because the older ones are: I don’t think any of the males in our family care that their penises are not identical! If you don’t think it’s the right thing to do, then don’t do it.

In my opinion, parents should watch a circumcision before they decide to do it. It is a painful, horrible procedure. I thought a circumcision was no big deal, I was shocked at the reality of it when I had to care for my oldest son’s injured penis as a newborn infant.

Danielle

I’ve seen a circumcision, as I am a nurse. It is not the pain that I am concerned about. Children will have to endure much more pain in their lives than that. It is whether it is the right thing to do or not. If I had to put my child through pain that lasts about 5 minutes to do something that he was only going to benefit from in the long run, that’s what I would do. We do that all the time as parents, and even God does this to us. Does He protect us from all pain or does He allow so that good comes from it. I just haven’t decided whether or not it is the right thing. I think I was more concerned about doing something so permanent to my child that he may not want when he is older. I am not a man and can’t make that decision. My husband doesn’t really see a problem with it. I have also heard that women who’s husbands aren’t circ’ed have higher incidence of cervical cancer. And whether this is selfish or not, I think what played a part in my decision to circ is the fact that I am happy my husband is circ’d.

Also, I’m not so sure about the other children not noticing or caring about a sibling who wouldn’t be circ’d. We had an incident with one of our children that prevented us from getting him circ’d till he was 1. The older children made a couple of comments about why his penis was broken. That was another thing that helped me make my decision. I don’t want him to feel left out or different. Whether you think so or not, nobody likes to be different even if you think it’s something that we shouldn’t be concerned with, children don’t understand that.

 

[mominne]

Children will have to endure much more pain in their lives than that. It is whether it is the right thing to do or not. If I had to put my child through pain that lasts about 5 minutes to do something that he was only going to benefit from in the long run, that’s what I would do.

Well, I can understand allowing your child to be put through pain that would benefit him. But why would you put your child through unnecessary surgical pain? And I’m pretty sure the pain lasts more than 5 minutes! While the surgery may only last 5 minutes, the infant must heal from it.

We do that all the time as parents, and even God does this to us.

God does not put us through unnecessary pain! We endure pain as the result of our sinful actions or from the sinful actions of others.

I have also heard that women who’s husbands aren’t circ’ed have higher incidence of cervical cancer.

I think I read that somewhere too. But I’m pretty sure that has been debunked. I’d have to do further research.

And whether this is selfish or not, I think what played a part in my decision to circ is the fact that I am happy my husband is circ’d.

May I ask why you are happy with that? I’m happy with my husband the way he is because I love him. I’m pretty sure I would feel the same either way!

Also, I’m not so sure about the other children not noticing or caring about a sibling who wouldn’t be circ’d. We had an incident with one of our children that prevented us from getting him circ’d till he was 1. The older children made a couple of comments about why his penis was broken.

Well, why didn’t you just explain to them that God designed penises that way and his penis wasn’t broken? I would be willing to bet it was just a passing curiousity. It probably didn’t impact them very much. But, I wasn’t there (obviously), so that is just a guess! I was just sharing that in my family the difference hasn’t been a big deal.

That was another thing that helped me make my decision. I don’t want him to feel left out or different. Whether you think so or not, nobody likes to be different even if you think it’s something that we shouldn’t be concerned with, children don’t understand that./

But you just said in the beginning of your post that children must learn to deal with pain. Wouldn’t learning to deal with the uncomfortable feelings that being different can bring be a beneficial lesson? It seems to me that we might be actually talking about pain with a purpose in this scenario. If we are faithful Catholics, we’ll find ourselves on the “different” side of things quite often!

 

[luvmykids]

mominne:

Well, I can understand allowing your child to be put through pain that would benefit him. But why would you put your child through unnecessary surgical pain? And I’m pretty sure the pain lasts more than 5 minutes! While the surgery may only last 5 minutes, the infant must heal from it.

God does not put us through unnecessary pain! We endure pain as the result of our sinful actions or from the sinful actions of others.

I think I read that somewhere too. But I’m pretty sure that has been debunked. I’d have to do further research.

May I ask why you are happy with that? I’m happy with my husband the way he is because I love him. I’m pretty sure I would feel the same either way!

Well, why didn’t you just explain to them that God designed penises that way and his penis wasn’t broken? I would be willing to bet it was just a passing curiousity. It probably didn’t impact them very much. But, I wasn’t there (obviously), so that is just a guess! I was just sharing that in my family the difference hasn’t been a big deal.

But you just said in the beginning of your post that children must learn to deal with pain. Wouldn’t learning to deal with the uncomfortable feelings that being different can bring be a beneficial lesson? It seems to me that we might be actually talking about pain with a purpose in this scenario. If we are faithful Catholics, we’ll find ourselves on the “different” side of things quite often!

I agree, but why do I sense defensiveness? I don’t think there is a right or wrong answer to this. And my husband has never complained about being circ’d. It doesn’t seem to bother him, and he certainly doesn’t remember the pain that it caused him. I get scared when I hear about the men who resent never having been circ’d. I personally know someone who wasn’t circ’d only to have to be circ’d when he was about 7 because his foreskin became swollen for some reason and was cutting of the circulation. Must be a lot worse when you are 7 than if it’s done as a newborn.

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

mominne:

In my opinion, parents should watch a circumcision before they decide to do it. It is a painful, horrible procedure. I thought a circumcision was no big deal, I was shocked at the reality of it when I had to care for my oldest son’s injured penis as a newborn infant.

Just as an FYI, I have indeed been present when some of our sons were circ’d and wasn’t shocked in the least by it. None of them cried for more than a few minutes during the actual procedure and none cried in pain during diapers either.