circumcision & Catholic teaching ?

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argon091076 said:
I am with you. Circumsizing is torture for a newborn.
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I have 3 sons and NONE of them cried… not even one tear… so keep your OPINION to yourself… I think too many parents on this board are passing judgement “I’m right and your wrong” is this Christian? Wow, I am amazed how mean some people can be.
 
kamz said:
I have 3 sons and NONE of them cried… not even one tear… so keep your OPINION to yourself… I think too many parents on this board are passing judgement “I’m right and your wrong” is this Christian? Wow, I am amazed how mean some people can be.
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I don’t get why people who don’t want to hear opinions are on discussion boards.

As for calling out others on how Christian they are… is it Christian to ignore published research that has been provided and shows that one’s opinion may be (is most likely) wrong? Since when do Christians ignore or actively refuse to see something that might be a truth they don’t like, but still the truth? And since when is saying, “This is right, this is wrong,” unChristian? The Church does it all the time, on issues from respect for life to international debt to whether a war is just, though as has been pointed out several times on this thread, the representatives of Church teaching we have on this board have not done so about circumcision.
 
duskyjewel said:
This should be done ONLY once the foreskin becomes retractable on its own! Never to an infant. The foreskin and glans are fused at birth, and separate over time naturally. (This is also one reason why circumcision as practiced today is so brutal. They literally have to skin the baby’s penis to get the foreskin off!) If you pull it back forcefully before it is ready, you will injure your son and could cause scar tissue, which will cause you tons of problems later. If the intact penis is mistreated, then it can indeed become very problematic.

As for those who claim their sons never cried or even fell asleep… once again I can only talk about scientific research here and not opinion… when studies were done, it was found that not only do newborns feel pain, they feel it more acutely than adults or even older children. Also, that numbing medications, while helpful, are not very effective during the most painful parts of the procedure. Think about it…they put a topical numbing medication on the penis, but they are detaching the inner layers of skin from one another…the topical med doesn’t soak through. And, the “sleep” state that some babies seem to fall into during their circumcision was proven to actually be a shock reaction, wherein the trauma was so great that the baby’s brain shut down his consciousness in order to get him away from what he could not escape. Shock and trauma shut-down reactions were also observed in babies who seemed to stay awake but were very quiet. Sources to follow…
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I think you have said enough… you have stated Your Opinion and we have stated our… I studied it and prayed about it and made sure it was not against the Catholic teachings and then we had our sons circ’d… that is my right… My child… not yours… why do we have to explain our reasons to you? I listen to the church… and I find some people think they are more Catholic than the church… you lack any charity… you are passing non stop judgement… I will take my advice from the church and not from someone I don’t even know on a message board… I would love to see this thread closed… it has become so mean and uncharitable.
 
duskyjewel said:
I don’t get why people who don’t want to hear opinions are on discussion boards.

As for calling out others on how Christian they are… is it Christian to ignore published research that has been provided and shows that one’s opinion may be (is most likely) wrong? Since when do Christians ignore or actively refuse to see something that might be a truth they don’t like, but still the truth? And since when is saying, “This is right, this is wrong,” unChristian? The Church does it all the time, on issues from respect for life to international debt to whether a war is just, though as has been pointed out several times on this thread, the representatives of Church teaching we have on this board have not done so about circumcision.
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I welcome opinions when they are expressed with respect; however, there have been some comments that fall short.

I speak only for myself, but I did not ignore published scientific research. I have reached my conclusions and made a decision based on research and prayer.
 
I think the problem is that too may people can’t conceive of something that is a “norm” actually being less than the right course of action.

Just because the Church is not set against it, does not mean it is something everyone should do.
 
astegallrnc said:
I welcome opinions when they are expressed with respect; however, there have been some comments that fall short.

I speak only for myself, but I did not ignore published scientific research. I have reached my conclusions and made a decision based on research and prayer.
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Exactly… why is it wrong to trust the church in this? If you can’t trust the church in this… why be Catholic at all?
 
Fidelia said:
I think the problem is that too may people can’t conceive of something that is a “norm” actually being less than the right course of action.

Just because the Church is not set against it, does not mean it is something everyone should do.
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Everyone? I don’t think everyone circs their sons… but how do you know that we don’t agonize over our decision… research it and pray about it?? Of course we do… but why do we have to debate our God given choice in this? Why isn’t our word that we looked at both sides, prayed about it and came to our conclusion good enough for you? You are so conviced your way is the only way and that is something that can’t be debated… you can’t debate someone who is soooo convinced theirs is the right way and no other way can be found.

And the thread is called circumcision and Catholic teaching… not lets debate if circing is right or wrong or if it is painful or not… start a new thread if you must.
 
kamz said:
it has become so mean and uncharitable.
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Some people consider slicing a newborn’s genitalia mean and uncharitable. Just saying.

If they were dragging grown men into a hospital and trying to do that, there would be a law against it by now. Why is it ok for parents to aesthetically alter their child’s body, because the child can’t say no? What about giving a newborn a tattoo?
 
Fidelia said:
Why is it ok for parents to aesthetically alter their child’s body, because the child can’t say no? What about giving a newborn a tattoo?
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I trust God, and He established it. Yes, I understand circing is superceded by baptism.
 
Fidelia said:
Some people consider slicing a newborn’s genitalia mean and uncharitable. Just saying.

If they were dragging grown men into a hospital and trying to do that, there would be a law against it by now. Why is it ok for parents to aesthetically alter their child’s body, because the child can’t say no? What about giving a newborn a tattoo?
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have you ever heard the saying …don’t be more Catholic than the Catholic church?"👍
 
astegallrnc said:
I trust God, and He established it. Yes, I understand circing is superceded by baptism.
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Not only that, but as has been pointed out, today much more tissue is unnecessarily removed than what was removed back in the days of the OT.
 
Yipes…I thought a debate was this: you express your thoughts, then I express my thoughts, then I respond, then you respond, and so on, back and forth. Because I am not changing my opinion, but bringing in resources to support it, this is not a debate? Because I can actually back up my side, I am uncharitable? Because I say, “The research show this…” I am passing non-stop judgement? I am doing that to show that my points are backed up by the best standard we have…scientific research. Scientific research is nothing less than the human quest for the truth about God’s world. (Some atheist scientists would disagree with me, but that is what it is, whether they believe it or not.) Scientists cross moral lines they shouldn’t way too often, usually due to their lack of belief in God, but most research is honest, and the best way we have to answer questions about the way things work in our world. And I have asked many times for the supporters of the other side to please post the research that backs them up. I will read it if they show it to me. Because as far as I can tell, without medical reasons to do it, infant circumcision is not exempt from the prohibition against direct, intended mutilations/amputations in the Catechism. Yes, I know, there are apologists who disagree with that, but I am sure there are some who would agree with me. Especially in light of the points that sanctareparata has been making about how radically different it now is from what God commanded the Jews to do. I am not saying I am more Catholic than the Church… individual apologists, as educated as they are, are not “the Church.”

Finally something that Rob’sWife said that I have been meaning to address, though the thread went another way:
At best, your argument is actually that we should clip girls too? hmm, if the same point were to be made that clipping girls would yield such benefits - would you be okay with it because then it would be treating the sexes the same?
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Those of us who bring up the sexual equality issues involved in this have never advocated circumcising girls, and regard any who do it as the barbarians they are! Our point is that since girls tend to have bigger issues with both UTIs and hygiene, and yet no one advocates circumcision to solve those, no one should be circumcising boys ostensibly to solve their lesser problems with these issues. Plus, as I have said many times and posted the backup for it, circumcision does not solve those problems anyway.

I actually agree that this thread is probably about exhausted. Even if it gets locked, I hope the mods do not delete it, because it contains a lot of valuable information and back-and-forth from both sides. That could help a parent who has never thought about these issues dig deeper and make a more informed decision.
 
duskyjewel said:
Yipes…I thought a debate was this: you express your thoughts, then I express my thoughts, then I respond, then you respond, and so on, back and forth. Because I am not changing my opinion, but bringing in resources to support it, this is not a debate? Because I can actually back up my side, I am uncharitable? I am doing that to show that my points are backed up by the best standard we have…scientific research. Scientific research is nothing less than the human quest for the truth about God’s world. (Some atheist scientists would disagree with me, but that is what it is, whether they believe it or not.) Scientists cross moral lines they shouldn’t way too often, usually due to their lack of belief in God, but most research is honest, and the best way we have to answer questions about the way things work in our world. And I have asked many times for the supporters of the other side to please post the research that backs them up. I will read it if they show it to me. Because as far as I can tell, without medical reasons to do it, infant circumcision is not exempt from the prohibition against direct, intended mutilations/amputations in the Catechism. Yes, I know, there are apologists who disagree with that, but I am sure there are some who would agree with me. Especially in light of the points that sanctareparata has been making about how radically different it now is from what God commanded the Jews to do. I am not saying I am more Catholic than the Church… individual apologists, as educated as they are, are not “the Church.”

Finally something that Rob’sWife said that I have been meaning to address, though the thread went another way:

Those of us who bring up the sexual equality issues involved in this have never advocated circumcising girls, and regard any who do it as the barbarians they are! Our point is that since girls tend to have bigger issues with both UTIs and hygiene, and yet no one advocates circumcision to solve those, no one should be circumcising boys ostensibly to solve their lesser problems with these issues. Plus, as I have said many times and posted the backup for it, circumcision does not solve those problems anyway.

I actually agree that this thread is probably about exhausted. Even if it gets locked, I hope the mods do not delete it, because it contains a lot of valuable information and back-and-forth from both sides. That could help a parent who has never thought about these issues dig deeper and make a more informed decision.
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Wow, it must be great to think your so, well… great!
 
Michelle Arnold
Catholic Answers Apologist Join Date: May 3, 2004
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 2,051

Re: Why is circumcision okay?
Circumcision was established by God and practiced by God’s people in obedience to him for thousands of years until it was superceded by baptism. Given that, we must assume that God would not establish a ritual for his people that can be considered deliberate mutilation and thus intrinsically immoral.

Even so, parents who object to non-therapeutic circumcision have the right to refuse to circumcise their sons as a matter of conscience. They should, however, take care not to make their arguments against circumcision in such ways that it casts aspersion on the legitimate choice of other parents to circumcise.
“The future starts today, not tomorrow.” – John Paul II

Michelle Arnold
What part of this don’t you understand??? they should take care not to make THEIR arguments against circumcision in such ways that it casts aspersion on the Legitimate choice of other parents to circumcise. can any of you read?
 
No. 2297 of the Catechism, “Respect for bodily integrity,” states in part:
“Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reasons, directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against the moral law.” The American Heritage Dictionary defines amputate as “To cut off (a part of the body), esp. by surgery,” and it defines therapeutic as “Having healing or curative powers.” In 1999 the American Academy of Pediatrics described circumcision as “amputation of the foreskin,” and the American Medical Association called elective circumcision “non-therapeutic” (Council on Scientific Affairs 1999). Elective circumcisions are directly intended, nontherapeutic amputations of healthy foreskins. As such, they do violate the moral law. source]
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From the first post of this thread:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=108454&highlight=circumcision
 
rayne89 said:
This is the only part that is in the catechism the rest is not -your quote is misleading.
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I quoted a post i found when i searched, and a source for it is supplied. There is nothing misleading. Regardless, the portion from the Catechism seems pretty clear.
 
sunnyday said:
protect your own and leave the rest of us to our own boys… as in… mind your bees wax
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If I really honestly consider this to be immoral and abusive, would it be moral of me to mind my own bees wax? And besides, I am not calling CPS on you…I am offering information! All I have done here is offer arguments against circumcision of healthy infants, from both scientific/medical and Catholic perspective. Some people might be wanting to ask themselves why they are SO invested in cutting healthy, functioning parts of off innocent, healthy newborns. I know why I am so invested in my arguments. I truly believe I can help protect some children from something I think is wrong.

Anyway, here are the sources I promised for the comments about pain and stress/trauma responses in babies being circumcised:

Gunnar, M. et al., “Adrenocortical Activity and Behavioral Distress in Human Newborns,” Developmental Psychobiology 21 (1988): 297-310;

Malone, S., Gunnar, M., & Fisch, R., “Adrenocortical and Behavioral Responses to Limb Restraint in Human Neonates,” Developmental Psychobiology 18 (1985): 435-46.

Ryan, C. & Finer, N., “Changing Attitudes and Practices Regarding Local Analgesia for Newborn Circumcision,” Pediatrics 94 (1994): 232.

Howard, C., Howard, F., & Weitzman, M., “Acetaminophen Analgesis in Neonatal Circumcision: The Effect on Pain,” Pediatrics 93 (1994): 645.

Benini, F. et al., “Topical Anesthesia during Circumcision in Newborn Infants,” Journal of the American Medical Association 270 (1993): 850-3.

Gunnar, M. et al., “Coping with Aversive Stimulation in the Neonatal Period: Quiet Sleep and Plasma Cortisol Levels during Recovery from Circumcision,” Child Development 56 (1985): 824-34.

Williamson, P. & Williamson, M., “Physiologic Stress Reduction by a Local Anesthetic during Newborn Circumcision,” Pediatrics 71 (1983): 40.

Stang, H. et al., “Local Anesthesia for Neonatal Circumcision,” Journal of the American Medical Association 259 (1988): 1510.
 
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