Circumcision of flesh everlasting covenant?

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WinterSunrise

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I’ve been considering converting to Christianity from atheism for a long time now, and I think I’ve narrowed things down to one last doubt I have.

Genesis 17:9-14 talks about circumcision of the flesh being “an everlasting covenant” “throughout” all of Abraham’s descendants, and while the Christian argument is about Jesus fulfilling it, it’s verse 14 that I find to be tricky:

"Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.” [RSVCE]

(name removed by moderator)ut here would be greatly appreciated
 
I don’t see how your concern wasn’t answered by Acts:
“15:5 But there arose of the sect of the Pharisees some that believed, saying: They must be circumcised and be commanded to observe the law of Moses.
15:6 And the apostles and ancients assembled to consider of this matter.”
…
“15:23 Writing by their hands: The apostles and ancients, brethren, to the brethren of the Gentiles that are at Antioch and in Syria and Cilicia, greeting.
15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard that some going out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, to whom we gave no commandment:
15:25 It hath seemed good to us, being assembled together, to choose out men and to send them unto you, with our well beloved Barnabas and Paul:
15:26 Men that have given their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who themselves also will, by word of mouth, tell you the same things.
15:28 For it hath seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us to lay no further burden upon you than these necessary things:
15:29 That you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication: from which things keeping yourselves, you shall do well. Fare ye well.”
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WinterSunrise said:
"Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.” [RSVCE]
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I believe this would only apply to the old covenant. So when the old covenant was active, anyone uncircumcised would be cut off, but know that the old covenant has been fulfilled through Jesus this stipulation no longer applies.
 
Is your concern that you would be required to be circumcised? You dont and would not have to be. That was a Jewish Covenant that was discussed when St Paul was active. Christians are not required to be corcumcised. It is great you are reading and thinking about Scripture. I pray you continue on the path home to God

Jewish people were circumsiced and had other rigorous law like not eating pork, which Christians are not required to follow. I would suggest reading the Gospels of Mathew Mark Luke and John first. They tell of the life of Jesus on earth and His ministry during his incarnation
 
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OurLadyofSorrows said:
Is your concern that you would be required to be circumcised?
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My concern is that there is a seeming contradiction between Genesis 17:9-14 and Acts 15.

Genesis here uses phrases such as “everlasting” and “throughout your generations”.

When it gives the warning in verse 14 it seems to go against Acts 15 and Christianity.
 
The Law in Genesis, Torah was given to Moses for the Israelites. We keep some of it as Christiams such as the 10 Commandments. On Acts St Paul is setting u the framework for how Christians live, Many first christians were Jewish converts abd many were not. So this issue of circumcision came u and it was decided by the Apostles and Disciples of Jesus that Christian non Jewish converts were not required to be circumcised
 
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But an uncircumcised descendant of Abraham converting to Christianity would go against the warning in Genesis 17:14. My concern is that this seems like a contradiction.
 
OurLadyofSorrows said:
The Law in Genesis, Torah was given to Moses for the Israelites. We keep some of it as Christiams such as the 10 Commandments. On Acts St Paul is setting u the framework for how Christians live, Many first christians were Jewish converts abd many were not. So this issue of circumcision came u and it was decided by the Apostles and Disciples of Jesus that Christian non Jewish converts were not required to be circumcised
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WinterSunrise said:
But an uncircumcised descendant of Abraham converting to Christianity would go against the warning in Genesis 17:14. My concern is that this seems like a contradiction.
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My comment here was supposed to be a reply to you. Sorry, I’m not experienced with this website.
 
WinterSunrise said:
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OurLadyofSorrows:
Is your concern that you would be required to be circumcised?
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My concern is that there is a seeming contradiction between Genesis 17:9-14 and Acts 15.

Genesis here uses phrases such as “everlasting” and “throughout your generations”.

When it gives the warning in verse 14 it seems to go against Acts 15 and Christianity.
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Summa Theologiae > Third Part > Question 70 Circumcision > Article 4 states:
All are agreed in saying that original sin was remitted in circumcision.
…
We must say, therefore, that grace was bestowed in circumcision as to all the effects of grace, but not as in Baptism. Because in Baptism grace is bestowed by the very power of Baptism itself, which power Baptism has as the instrument of Christ’s Passion already consummated.
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https://www.newadvent.org/summa/4070.htm
 
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Thats ok , I would like to discuss the difference in the law of the Israelites and that of the Christian Converts and the Covenants. It is a great question and something that can confuse people.

There is the Old Testament which was written before Christ, and then the New Testament that talks of the life and Ministry of Christ when on earth and then what the Apostles did after His Resurrection and Ascension into Heaven. There is a change in some laws and Covenants at this time because Christ came to fulfil the old Covenants and give us a new one. So things that were not allowed for the Jewish in the Old Testament, are allowed for Christians in the New Testament like eating pork.

We still keep the 10 Commandments of the Old Testament though.
 
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St Peter, our first Pope and an apostle of Jesus and St Paul, who Christ appeared to on the road to Damascus, after Christ had Ascended to heaven, had an argument about whether the Christian converts who were not Jewish , should be circumcised. It was decided that no, these people should not be circumcised. Christ gave St Peter the keys to the kingdom and said whatever he loosed on earth would be loosed in heaven. That means Jesus gave these men the power to make these choices for us.
 
Check what was quoted in Acts by James (passage from Amos I can’t find it atm). That passage was quite controversial for Jews even before our Lord came. Many interpreted it the way that Gentiles who convert to Judaism did not need circumcision (and later Christianity settled this by taking that side of argument).

So it isn’t solely Christian thing and it shows that even according to Judaism it might not strictly be a contradiction.

God bless you on your journey and may He lead you where Truth is.
adamhovey1988 said:
Y’all, cut it out about your circumcision questions.
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It’s better if OP inquires and finds out the Truth rather than just deciding Christianity is false. Props to you OP for asking for clarification.
 
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WinterSunrise said:
"Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.” [RSVCE]
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Yes, that requirement is still in force, but only for Jews. Gentile Christians have been exempted from it, as @Fauken noted in her post #2.

Historically, the Christian Church began as a sect within Judaism. The Council of Jerusalem (the name commonly given to the meeting chaired by James the Just in Acts 15) had a single specific purpose, to decide whether Gentiles could be admitted to the Christian Church without formally converting to Judaism. James was the head of the Jewish Christian community in Jerusalem, Peter and Paul represented the largely (or even wholly) Gentile Christian community in Antioch, which was then the capital of Syria. James was faced with the difficult task of finding a solution that was acceptable to both sides. He himself, and all his Jerusalem flock, were observant Jews. They worshiped at the Temple constantly, they kept the Sabbath, they kept kosher, and they circumcised their infant sons. As reported by Luke in Acts 15, James rules that Gentile converts are exempted from these requirements. Jewish Christians, as far as we can tell, were still at that time (around the year 48 or 49) required to observe the whole of the Mosaic Law, but from that moment on, Gentile Christians were not.
 
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OrbisNonSufficit said:
It’s better if OP inquires and finds out the Truth rather than just deciding Christianity is false. Props to you OP for asking for clarification.
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I’m not sure, but I think he was making a pun. Circumcision and περιτομη peritome mean ‘to cut around or about an object’.
 
Romans 11-12 addresses your issue. “The gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.” (Romans 11:29) Romans goes on to describe how the relationship founded on circumcision becomes the base into which the Gentiles are grafted, like the tree onto which other types are grafted.

The Catholic Church affirms these things, but recognizes the difficulty living it out. Our salvation is from Christ, who was born a Jew and lives out of being chosen by God as they were. This is a mystery that the Church is struggling to understand jusst as you are struggling.

The gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable is the Holy See’s most recent summary of the topic.
 
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WinterSunrise said:
But an uncircumcised descendant of Abraham converting to Christianity would go against the warning in Genesis 17:14. My concern is that this seems like a contradiction.
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Are a an actual Jew? (Or maybe a Muslin?). It is what a descendant of Abraham is. We Christians are not semit people who are descendants of Abraham. We only have a spiritual filiation. Saint Paul answer it in the New Testament.

If not, the genesis command of circuncision does not apply to you.
 
WinterSunrise said:
Christianity being true or not is something that I really want to get right.
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I suggest reading the Gospels first, and turning inward and silently working to listen to God and look at where God and His creation may be in the world around you. In people, nature, events.
 
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