Civil law and sin

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Orionthehunter:
** At the same time, a primary motive in my posts is my abhorance of a creeping attitude of “it is legal thus it is moral” or deserving of respect/sanction**. While a submissive attitude doesn’t result in sins of commission, I believe this attitude can lead to sins of ommission as our submission gives sanction to laws and societal “norms” that are harmful and counter-productive. Somebody once told me that all laws are judgments of morality. Unfortunately, more and more the judgments of our civil authorities are what all of us on this thread would consider immoral.
A very good point.
And that is why every civil law needs to be scrutinized carefully through the lens of what the Church teaches.
I would like to apologize if I have given that impression in any of my posts. Further, I would like to put your mind at ease, I distrust most civil authorities insofar as the laws they dictate I do not consider to be morally authoritative in any way.

I am uncertain if I would agree that all laws are a judgement of morality. This would definitely explain the breakdown in society as a whole when God is removed from the equation. Without God, there is no moral authority, and the law is mere words on paper. But many laws are placed into effect with no moral implication whatsoever. Consider tax laws for instance…sure there are teeth behind them of jail time, but is there really a moral precedent for all of the juggling necessary at tax time? I doubt it. There is the moral imperative to render unto Caeser, but the procedure to find out what Caeser’s cut should be is wholly amoral.
 
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Orionthehunter:
… Dave, if I may, I’d like to slightly modify this quote using bold. I think it is a pretty good summation of what our general attitude and disposition needs to be. Without these changes, it appears to effectively define all civil disobedience as illicit and sinful.
I have difficulty with civil disobedience probably because my experience (17 years in the military) doesn’t cotton much to disobedience excepting when military orders are manifestly unlawful or when necessity makes dispensation impossible. The evil effects of rebellion are very grave such that rebellion is rarely justified. However, just rebellion is certainly conceivable.

The response one takes probably differs with respect to the kind of justice we are speaking of. There are three kinds of justice… 1) commutative justice: justice owed between two (or more) equal people, states, countries, etc.; 2) Distributive justice: justice owed by a superior to his subordinates, and 3) Legal justice: the justice subordinates owe superiors.

If we are speaking of a breach of legal justice, that is, when the subordinate fails to give the justice owed to their superiors, the governing authorities typically have penalties and censures they exercise for enforcement.

If we are speaking of a breach in commutative justice, that is, if I have a complaint against one of my fellow citizens, ordinarily it is dangerous to the common good of society to take things into my own hands. Instead I ought to resolve it through a lawsuit, assuming that other methods are not successful. If a person arrogated to himself the task of taking care of such things on his own, the result woud be chaos, vendettas, etc. However, if the ordinary mechanisms of the state cannot or will not handle such matters, it is allowable for the individual to enforce his rights personally, for otherwise our rights become meaningless.

When there is a dispute of distributive justice, that is, when the superior fails to give the justice owed to their subordinates, then matters get even more difficult. Ordinarily, due process provides for appeals to higher authority. To do much more would be to use private force against the state, ie. to engage in rebellion–something which given the amount of evil it brings is ordinarly not justified. Again if ordinary mechanisms cannot or will not handle such matters, then it is possible for the individual to enforce his rights personally. Rebellion is however ripe for abuse and historically, they rarely end well. The moral principle of the lesser-of-two-evils and/or the principle of double-effect ought to be considered.

Do we have an obligation to obey unjust laws and or commands of our superios? Some laws command something unjustly, while others command something that is truly immoral. In the case of the former it may be disobeyed but does not have to be disobeyed. In other words, there is nothing immoral on my part about suffering injustice. Such would be rather what Christ and the apostles endured. However, regarding the latter form of unjust law, ie. the law commanding something immoral, it must be disobeyed.

The classic example discussed in ethics courses is the military draft. Many conscientiously believe that in some instances, such a law can be unjust. Others disagree. The circumstances of rebellion against such a law ought to be prudentially weighed and a judgement made on a case-by-case basis. We must follow our properly formed conscience.

Consequently, St. Thomas taught, “we may distinguish a threefold obedience; one, sufficient for salvation, and consisting in obeying when one is bound to obey: secondly, perfect obedience, which obeys in all things lawful: thirdly, indiscreet obedience, which obeys even in matters unlawful.” (ST, IIb, 104, 5).
I reject the concept of danger if it implies only matters of life and death. If I’m obligated by law to sanction that which is immoral, I’m free to disobey even if the matter isn’t a matter of life and death.
I believe the sense of “necessity” that St. Thomas speaks of concerning “sudden peril” is not limited to mere bodily peril, but includes peril to one’s soul or moral peril.
 
itsjust dave: I have difficulty with civil disobedience probably because my experience (17 years in the military) doesn’t cotton much to disobedience excepting when military orders are manifestly unlawful or when necessity makes dispensation impossible. The evil effects of rebellion are very grave such that rebellion is rarely justified. However, just rebellion is certainly conceivable.
LOL Well, your perspective is one I know very well. My brother who is in law enforcement has zero tolerance for it also. And I know an attitude that is skeptical of authority all the time has great pitfalls for both society as well as the skeptic. At the same time, skeptics keep people in authority honest.
from vz: And that is why every civil law needs to be scrutinized carefully through the lens of what the Church teaches.
I couldn’t agree more. Imagine if every law that violates human dignity, family dignity, societal dignity were exposed for its offense against God how much better this world would be. Instead, if it doesn’t affect us, we are silent while it crushes our neighbor. Either we are going to be like the Jews on a train to Auschwitz in quiet submission or we need to strike back like the American Revolutionaries. The Enemy is playing for keeps and wants to win.
 
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Orionthehunter:
I couldn’t agree more. Imagine if every law that violates human dignity, family dignity, societal dignity were exposed for its offense against God how much better this world would be. Instead, if it doesn’t affect us, we are silent while it crushes our neighbor. Either we are going to be like the Jews on a train to Auschwitz in quiet submission or we need to strike back like the American Revolutionaries. The Enemy is playing for keeps and wants to win.
Let’s keep in mind that the laws Germany was passing and enforcing at the time were very obviously unjust. Also bear in mind that the Church was vocal about this.
I doubt anyone on this message stream would have mistakenly followed any of those laws.
Also, many Jews did strike back. But when the life of an individual is devalued to the point it was at that time and place, such rebellion was put down with hardly a notice.
 
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vz71:
Let’s keep in mind that the laws Germany was passing and enforcing at the time were very obviously unjust. Also bear in mind that the Church was vocal about this.
I doubt anyone on this message stream would have mistakenly followed any of those laws.
Also, many Jews did strike back. But when the life of an individual is devalued to the point it was at that time and place, such rebellion was put down with hardly a notice.
Ooops. My examples (Jews on the train and Am. Revolutionaries) were only allegorical/illustrative. One to signify submissiveness to authority while being led to Armagedon and the other to signify people defying authority for a principle and risking life, liberty. The Jews analogy was selected because we all have a mental picture of a crowd of 1,000 Jews passively getting on the trains while being controlled by a couple of dozen “authorities”. The AmRevs were picked because of the fact that it is estimated that at the time of the AR War, it was never supported by a majority of the population and only passionately supported by what is thought to be under 25%.

But you do point out a good point at the end. Life (esp. Jews as people) didn’t get devalued all at once. It happened over years of bigotry, bias, and a gradual loss of rights. When I went thru the Holocaust museum, I was shocked to learn that Germany began passing anti-Semetic laws right after WWI (many years before the Nazis).
 
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