Civil Marriage means....What?

[EasterJoy]

So, the American Academy of Pediatrics announced its support for extending marriage right to same-sex partners.
aap.org/en-us/about-the-aap/aap-press-room/pages/American-Academy-of-Pediatrics-Supports-Same-Gender-Civil-Marriage.aspx?nfstatus=401&nftoken=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000&nfstatusdescription=ERROR%3a+No+local+token

**But wait, there’s more!! **The group Unmarried Equality has petitioned the AAP to amend its position paper to remove language that implies that unmarried parents are in any way inferior to married parents!
change.org/petitions/the-american-academy-of-pediatrics-revise-your-endorsement-for-same-sex-marriage

When it becomes politically incorrect to say that a child would naturally want to live with his or her own father and mother, who promised themselves to each other before the child’s birth with the intention of living with and for each other for life, this is where it goes.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I had a really fantastic discussion about this a few weeks ago with a very intelligent man who is a devoted husband and father. I however did not know that he was a SUPER devout Catholic before this discussion. Before I continue it was a discussion, not a debate. Our personal views did not factor in, we were just discussing the whys of society as a whole.

The conclusion that we came to is not that people are by and large uncommitted sleep-around-Sues who want all of the orgasms and none of the love, commitment, or family, but that how we view marriage has changed so much. (I’m not talking about gay marriage at all right now, that’s a different, but slightly related issue that is too inflammatory for this post and for the discussion that we had.)

Basically people have stopped viewing marriage as one defining moment in time where before that moment you are single and after you are married. They view it as a process. You meet, you date, you fall in love, you decide you want to commit, and then you slowly merge lives. You move in together, get a dog, combine finances, maybe even have a kid or two and at some point during this whole thing you realize that you are married. Or, you realize during the process that “We are doing everything else, so what’s the point of making it official?”

We all know couples who have been together for decades and raised kids without being married. We all know couples who have lived together for 10 years but are now getting married because they might as well make it legal. This has become pretty common and I would expect that as the wants and needs of individuals change and what we consider to be a basic family unit changes, laws will change too.

I’m not sure what the cause is. Some people blame the sexual revolution of the '60s, some blame TV, others blame gays, but I really think that the whole thing goes deeper than that.

 

[EasterJoy]

…at some point during this whole thing you realize that you are married. Or, you realize during the process that “We are doing everything else, so what’s the point of making it official?”…

Yes, depending on whether you live in a common-law state or not, exactly. Health insurance. Tax breaks, including the right to inherit without incurring estate tax. Exchange of legal status to hold each other to a contract and hold others to recognize the union. That’s what it has become…a lot of rights and advantages and status and maybe some hearts and stars and lacy rose-strewn fantasies, all of which you can take or leave, but all of which are becoming more and more totally divorced from what marriage actually is.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Yes, depending on whether you live in a common-law state or not, exactly. Health insurance. Tax breaks, including the right to inherit without incurring estate tax. Exchange of legal status to hold each other to a contract and hold others to recognize the union. That’s what it has become…a lot of rights and advantages and status and maybe some hearts and stars and lacy rose-strewn fantasies, all of which you can take or leave, but all of which are becoming more and more totally divorced from what marriage actually is.

Many companies now offer health insurance for live-in partners. While there are tax benefits for being married, in many cases there are financial benefits for staying single too, particularly if one person is pursuing a master’s, doctoral, or professional degree, or has a lot of private student loans. And a lot of estate issues are settled when unmarried people buy a house together and/or go to a lawyer. These days many people don’t feel a need to hold one another to a contract and live-in couples are generally recognized by society as a familial unit. If you want to talk hard black and white benefits you can’t, because those have become shades of grey. Society is changing quickly, that’s for sure.

 

[EasterJoy]

Many companies now offer health insurance for live-in partners. While there are tax benefits for being married, in many cases there are financial benefits for staying single too, particularly if one person is pursuing a master’s, doctoral, or professional degree, or has a lot of private student loans. And a lot of estate issues are settled when unmarried people buy a house together and/or go to a lawyer. These days many people don’t feel a need to hold one another to a contract and live-in couples are generally recognized by society as a familial unit. If you want to talk hard black and white benefits you can’t, because those have become shades of grey. Society is changing quickly, that’s for sure.

Which is to say that the decision to marry or not has become divorced from the reason marriage has for existing. It is about everything except “the covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life and which is ordered by its nature to the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring…raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament between the baptized…with the essential properties of…unity and indissolubility.” (Code of Canon Law, 1055-1056)

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Which is to say that the decision to marry or not has become divorced from the reason marriage has for existing. It is about everything except “the covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life and which is ordered by its nature to the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring…raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament between the baptized…with the essential properties of…unity and indissolubility.” (Code of Canon Law, 1055-1056)

I would agree with you there. That has absolutely nothing to do with my decision to marry, and even most Christians I know don’t view having children as inherently being part of marriage.

 

[jmcrae]

Many companies now offer health insurance for live-in partners. While there are tax benefits for being married, in many cases there are financial benefits for staying single too, particularly if one person is pursuing a master’s, doctoral, or professional degree, or has a lot of private student loans. And a lot of estate issues are settled when unmarried people buy a house together and/or go to a lawyer. These days many people don’t feel a need to hold one another to a contract and live-in couples are generally recognized by society as a familial unit. If you want to talk hard black and white benefits you can’t, because those have become shades of grey. Society is changing quickly, that’s for sure.

As long as nothing ever goes wrong, this is idyllic, indeed - a Garden of Eden where no one needs to be bound to promises, but just does the right thing because it’s the right thing to do, without being legally obligated.

However, we live in a fallen world, and we ourselves are fallen people. An unmarried woman is at particular risk, because she can be abandoned and made homeless and penniless without any recourse - her boyfriend can dump her and the kids at any time, if they aren’t married. Some men do that - some men have so many “baby-mamas” they can’t keep track of them all.

And it’s not just the men - women who have their own means of making money do the same thing; they dart from bed to bed looking for the perfect father for their children. Many women are on a second or even a third live-in relationship, and the men they leave behind have no rights to see their children, because, there having been no marriage, there is no divorce proceeding in which to debate and settle on child visiting rights. They have so many “baby daddies” but the man they’re living with right now is “such a perfect Daddy to the kids,” and she feels no need to let their “bio-Dads” into their lives, because he has taken their place.

 

[1ke]

even most Christians I know don’t view having children as inherently being part of marriage.

Blame it on the demise of a classical education.

The word Matrimony means the making of a mother.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Blame it on the demise of a classical education.

The word Matrimony means the making of a mother.

Ew. Honestly that fact is interesting, and I’m really glad you shared it, but it does creep me out.

 

[JackieMom]

Actually I don’t know anyone who has raised a family while remaining unmarried… And I live in liberal Southern California and don’t hang out in Trad circles or anything. I’ve lived here my whole life and know lots and lots of people. I know people who married when their unplanned out-of-wedlock baby was 1 or 2, but no one that has ever deliberately chosen to start a family without marriage being a part of the equation.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Actually I don’t know anyone who has raised a family while remaining unmarried… And I live in liberal Southern California and don’t hang out in Trad circles or anything. I’ve lived here my whole life and know lots and lots of people. I know people who married when their unplanned out-of-wedlock baby was 1 or 2, but no one that has ever deliberately chosen to start a family without marriage being a part of the equation.

That’s very interesting. My family is from the Midwest and although I left my home state for college I stayed in the area. I’ve known several people in that region who have done it, and one of them is a close family member.

Where I am now I’m not sure. I’m in the north east, but most of the people that I know out here are in law school or just starting careers and are not married, so I really can’t say much for here.

I think I would have instinctively said that it was more common in your area.

 

[twoshoes]

I would agree with you there. That has absolutely nothing to do with my decision to marry, and even most Christians I know don’t view having children as inherently being part of marriage.

Then what is the purpose of marriage, if not to give rights to a child in the marriage . If all marriage is is an agreement between two people who love each other, then why is there a legal document. In the eyes of God marriage gives the child a rightful place in the family, the child is the fourth leg of the stool, God, man,woman and child.

Can I marry my daughter, my son , cat or my dog, I love all of them. Your statement is exactly why the family unit is falling apart. What a sad world you and your friends purpose.

 

[SwizzleStick]

…We all know couples who have been together for decades and raised kids without being married. …

I don’t know any couple who has done that.

…We all know couples who have lived together for 10 years but are now getting married because they might as well make it legal. …

I don’t know any couple who has done that either.

 

[JackieMom]

That’s very interesting. My family is from the Midwest and although I left my home state for college I stayed in the area. I’ve known several people in that region who have done it, and one of them is a close family member.

Where I am now I’m not sure. I’m in the north east, but most of the people that I know out here are in law school or just starting careers and are not married, so I really can’t say much for here.

I think I would have instinctively said that it was more common in your area.

Yeah, I mean, we’re out here on the left coast, both of us went to college in Los Angeles - and I can’t even think of one person I know remotely who planned an out-of-wedlock pregnancy or chose to raise a family as cohabitating non-spouses. I do know tons of people who cohabitated while they were dating, but all of those people broke up, married before starting a family, or married fairly soon after an unplanned pregnancy.

 

[Miss_Felicity]

Ew. Honestly that fact is interesting, and I’m really glad you shared it, but it does creep me out.

When I found out that was the literal definition I felt a little uneasy about it to but I thought it was just me so I kept my mouth shut. I Do want to be married and have children (in that order) but it just freaks me out. Anyway back to your regularly scheduled program.

 

[marymary1975]

Blame it on the demise of a classical education.

The word Matrimony means the making of a mother.

 

[EasterJoy]

Ew. Honestly that fact is interesting, and I’m really glad you shared it, but it does creep me out.

matrimony (n.) from Old French matremoine “matrimony, marriage” and directly from Latin matrimonium “wedlock, marriage,” from matrem (nominative mater) “mother” (see mother (n.1)) + -monium, suffix signifying “action, state, condition.”

Matrimony changes your state in life from a virgin to a woman joined to a husband in order that you might become parents. I’m not sure what the “ew” factor is?

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

I’ve had this conversation about the meaning of civil marriage with several friends. They seemed a bit confused about its meaning. All of them lived with their boyfriends beforehand and saw the wedding as a public proclamation of their love. The marriage was a continuation of the relationship before the wedding, plus children somewhere down the line. They at the same time claimed that living together was the same as being married, but that being married made things somehow different and was a better setup in terms of children. All of these friends claimed to take marriage seriously, but also agreed that divorce is fine and that sometimes we just need to move on when things don’t work out.

So sad. I dislike going to civil weddings because I see no purpose to them, and especially because the couple in question sees no real purpose either.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I’ve had this conversation about the meaning of civil marriage with several friends. They seemed a bit confused about its meaning. All of them lived with their boyfriends beforehand and saw the wedding as a public proclamation of their love. The marriage was a continuation of the relationship before the wedding, plus children somewhere down the line. They at the same time claimed that living together was the same as being married, but that being married made things somehow different and was a better setup in terms of children. All of these friends claimed to take marriage seriously, but also agreed that divorce is fine and that sometimes we just need to move on when things don’t work out.

So sad. I dislike going to civil weddings because I see no purpose to them, and especially because the couple in question sees no real purpose either.

That’s interesting. I hold many of the views your friends expressed minus a few. I don’t think that living together is inherently the same as being married unless you make it so. People who live together but don’t combine finances, share vehicles, open each other’s mail, talk about medical issues, don’t both put their names on the lease or mortgage are not married. I’m not sure what they’re doing except complicating their lives. But it isn’t marriage because the couple is still holding so much back from each other, and it lacks a complete commitment. I don’t see marriage as a deceleration, more of something that you live out.

I definitely see an official ceremony as a public deceleration of a commitment that has already been made.

Being married is different in the legal sense, as in, once I’m married I can stop running to a lawyer every time I need to put something into his name or give him rights to my property, medical decisions, etc. But I don’t think that an official wedding or legal paperwork inherently creates a better home for a child or makes the relationship between the couple different.

I take marriage seriously and I do not believe in divorce unless there is domestic abuse of either a spouse or children, substance abuse, or adultery. (Or something obscure but still life ruining, like a gambling addiction that results in the loss of everything and the addict refuses to get help). But “moving on” when things don’t “work out” is not ok. Nothing ever “works out” in life, you have to do something to make it work out. That’s true for relationships, jobs, etc.

The best wedding I’ve ever been to was my brother’s. It was a civil wedding performed by a close family friend in a park. There were maybe 25 people there and the food was catered by the moms of the couple. Their vows were sweet and hilarious, the toasts were lighthearted, and there was not a dry eye in the lodge when they were done. Witnessing their wedding made me change a few things about mine. But they had already been living out their marriage for 7 years, so it was more of an affirmation of what they and everyone already knew than a new beginning.

:shrug:Just my thoughts. I’ve been to many weddings, some religious, some not, all were beautiful, special, and meaningful, and they all expressed very well who the couple was.

 

[EasterJoy]

That’s interesting. I hold many of the views your friends expressed minus a few. I don’t think that living together is inherently the same as being married unless you make it so. People who live together but don’t combine finances, share vehicles, open each other’s mail, talk about medical issues, don’t both put their names on the lease or mortgage are not married. I’m not sure what they’re doing except complicating their lives. But it isn’t marriage because the couple is still holding so much back from each other, and it lacks a complete commitment. I don’t see marriage as a deceleration, more of something that you live out.

I definitely see an official ceremony as a public deceleration of a commitment that has already been made.

Being married is different in the legal sense, as in, once I’m married I can stop running to a lawyer every time I need to put something into his name or give him rights to my property, medical decisions, etc. But I don’t think that an official wedding or legal paperwork inherently creates a better home for a child or makes the relationship between the couple different.

I take marriage seriously and I do not believe in divorce unless there is domestic abuse of either a spouse or children, substance abuse, or adultery. (Or something obscure but still life ruining, like a gambling addiction that results in the loss of everything and the addict refuses to get help). But “moving on” when things don’t “work out” is not ok. Nothing ever “works out” in life, you have to do something to make it work out. That’s true for relationships, jobs, etc.

The best wedding I’ve ever been to was my brother’s. It was a civil wedding performed by a close family friend in a park. There were maybe 25 people there and the food was catered by the moms of the couple. Their vows were sweet and hilarious, the toasts were lighthearted, and there was not a dry eye in the lodge when they were done. Witnessing their wedding made me change a few things about mine. But they had already been living out their marriage for 7 years, so it was more of an affirmation of what they and everyone already knew than a new beginning.

:shrug:Just my thoughts. I’ve been to many weddings, some religious, some not, all were beautiful, special, and meaningful, and they all expressed very well who the couple was.

Where do you think God fits into the concept of marriage? Chastity? Did it not sadden you at all to go to a sweet, hilarious, lighthearted, sentimental wedding at which God was not bidden to be the center? I went to such a wedding as you just described, at which the bride had been a valedictorian at a local Catholic high school. I found her choice to have a friend get a boxtop “ordination” in order to perform the marriage, not to mention the choice to avoid anything to do with the Church, a very sad choice that the picturesque venue and marvelous food and lovely party was not able to erase.

If marriage had no legal advantages, nothing that couldn’t be accomplished by any two adults in a single conveniently-made contract, why do you think people would marry? What if there were no white dresses or flowers or little girl fairy tale romance involved? Who do you think would still marry? Why?

When we were young, we were taught that a sacrament can be defined as “an outward sign, instituted by Christ, to give grace”. Do you think that the ritual of a Catholic marriage accomplishes…well, what do you think it accomplishes?