Civil Marriage

[Hailz]

I am from Australia, and am currently staying in the United States with my fiancé on a visa that lasts for three months. We are completely sure that we would like to get married, but we can’t approach the Church about marriage preparation until one month before the visa expires, otherwise immigration authorities will think we planned to get married before I came (which would be illegal). We had been talking about marriage for a while, and knew it wouldn’t be long after I came that we would get engaged, but we certainly hadn’t planned marriage, and therefore haven’t done anything illegal. I fully intended to return to Australia after three months, and had the flight booked before I came here. After getting engaged, we discussed all the possibilities, and decided that if at all possible, I’d like to stay in the United States. This is because if I went back to Australia, I would have a very difficult time. My parents are not exactly supportive, and so I’m not sure if I’d even have a place to stay while I’m waiting on the fiancé visa to be granted (which takes about 6 months). I also don’t have a job there, and being away from my fiancé that long would be torture. So that’s why we both really want to get married while I’m in the U.S.

Our problem is that we don’t think the Church will be able to put us through marriage preparation in one month before the visa expires. We’ve heard of other couples in similar situations seeking a dispensation from the bishop to marry civilly and then going through marriage preparation afterwards, so we are considering this possibility.

On the one hand though, it feels like we would be sinning by doing this. To take an analogy, Catholics are not allowed to participate in Protestant communion, because to treat the Eucharist as solely a memorial/symbol is to change it from what it’s supposed to be into something else. It feels the same in this situation, with us turning the celebration of marriage into something it’s not supposed to be. But on the other hand, since the Church *does *grant a dispensation for this, surely it can’t be sinful (though not ideal, obviously)?

If we sought the dispensation, we wouldn’t consider ourselves married until the proper Catholic ceremony, because we realise that the Church wouldn’t consider us married even though the State would.

What does everyone here think?

 

[masuwerte]

Congratulations on your engagement, but I would not encourage you to flaunt immigration procedures in your new country. Don’t overstay your visa. Go home. She’ll have to file a petition for a K-1 Fiance(e) visa on your behalf. It will take three to six months.

If you marry her and try to stay here, the Department of Homeland Security will quite likely make your life difficult. Do it properly and you shouldn’t have any problem.

 

[Hailz]

Congratulations on your engagement, but I would not encourage you to flaunt immigration procedures in your new country. Don’t overstay your visa. Go home. She’ll have to file a petition for a K-1 Fiance(e) visa on your behalf. It will take three to six months.

If you marry her and try to stay here, the Department of Homeland Security will quite likely make your life difficult. Do it properly and you shouldn’t have any problem.

Thanks for the congratulations!

My fiancé has spoken to an attorney who assured him that there would not be a problem with doing it this way. We wouldn’t be doing anything illegal.

What I want to know is why the Church doesn’t see it as being sinful even though it seems we are taking away from the sacredness of marriage by marrying civilly.

[Oh, I’m a girl, btw! Fiancé is for males, and fiancée is for females ]

 

[Beth_Cecilia]

You need to talk to your pastor, and likely a bishop. The Church understands complicated problems of this kind, and you are right to worry about it- rather than just going through with a civil marriage. You can likely get a dispensation, and that is the point of a dispensation. You understand why the rule exists and you want to abide by it but you cannot.

 

[Hailz]

You need to talk to your pastor, and likely a bishop. The Church understands complicated problems of this kind, and you are right to worry about it- rather than just going through with a civil marriage. You can likely get a dispensation, and that is the point of a dispensation. You understand why the rule exists and you want to abide by it but you cannot.

We will definitely be speaking to both our pastor and a bishop about the whole situation. Perhaps I didn’t phrase my original post very well - I am not seeking advice about the dispensation/visa/marriage. My fiancé and I have spent a great deal of time researching all of that. What I want to know is: What is the difference between taking communion in a Protestant church, and marrying civilly? Both of those seem to be taking away from the sacredness of those sacraments.

See, my fiancé suggested getting a dispensation to marry civilly, but I can’t stop thinking that doing so would be sin. I posed to him the analogy that it would be like participating in Protestant communion. He told me that civil marriage with a dispensation would not be sinful (although not ideal, obviously!) because if it was, then the Church would not grant it. However, I am struggling to see the difference, so *please *can someone tell me!? Thank you!

 

[1ke]

But on the other hand, since the Church *does *grant a dispensation for this, surely it can’t be sinful (though not ideal, obviously)?

There is no such dispensation. You have been misinformed.

You need to contact a priest, follow Church requirements, and trust in God that all will be well if you stop trying to find ways around the Church’s marriage laws and requirements.

 

[mosher]

Yes, let’s be honest here. While the thought of marriage is a happy affair it is also a serious one. Let me draw an analogy. As a religious brother prior to being allowed to take my Solemn Vows (my marriage equivalent for sake of the analogy) I will have had a period of preparation before the Novitiate, a one year Novitiate, 5 years of temporary vows and 6 separate votes on whether I should be allowed to take vows at all. If I can wait that long for my vows, then I’m sure you can slow down a bit and wait for yours.

The Church has a process for a reason – trust the process.

 

[suissemissed]

There is no such dispensation. You have been misinformed.

You need to contact a priest, follow Church requirements, and trust in God that all will be well if you stop trying to find ways around the Church’s marriage laws and requirements.

mosher:

The Church has a process for a reason – trust the process.

Hello everyone, I’m Hailz’s fiancé Actually 1ke, I read a story on Catholic Answers about a couple who were granted just such a dispensation (that’s where we got the idea from). Unless I’m mistaken (and please correct me if I am), a bishop can dispense with any Apostolic or Church law for just reason, unless the Holy See has specifically reserved the right to itself.

Mosher, we would be totally cool with going through the whole process, except that we have very serious concerns about the consequences if we did that. That’s what dispensations are for, to accommodate people when keeping to the canons would bring more harm than good. But we do trust God will see that everything goes as He’s planned

 

[mosher]

Hello everyone, I’m Hailz’s fiancé Actually 1ke, I read a story on Catholic Answers about a couple who were granted just such a dispensation (that’s where we got the idea from). Unless I’m mistaken (and please correct me if I am), a bishop can dispense with any Apostolic or Church law for just reason, unless the Holy See has specifically reserved the right to itself.

Mosher, we would be totally cool with going through the whole process, except that we have very serious concerns about the consequences if we did that. That’s what dispensations are for, to accommodate people when keeping to the canons would bring more harm than good. But we do trust God will see that everything goes as He’s planned

Glad to hear from you.

I will not inquire about the consequences in the event that they are private matters. However, considering what you have said reframes the concern of the thread.

The dispensation that you two seem to be thinking about is a dispensation from canonical form. Yes, this can be granted but only for a just reason. The usual reason is a case with a mixed marriage which the couple is desirous of being married in the non-Catholic’s “church” and this is judged to be a good for the sake of the couple. Or, retroactively for those who are seeking to regularize their marriage, i.e., radical sanation.

If I understand your situation properly it doesn’t seem like this is what we are talking about. What you are looking for is engaging in a civil marriage and then after the civil ceremony working through the ecclesial process to engage in a Sacramental Marriage. This is a very difficult and particular case. You will need to speak to the Pastor of the parish and definitely seek the advice of the Judicial Vicar for the diocese. While there are folks who are knowledgable jurists on this forum I don’t think this is the proper place to deal with the complexities of your situation. You need to have a sit-down conversation with the competent authorities in this diocese where you are living and where she is visiting (because her diocese of residence might also need to be notified of any judgments made on this issue).

But 1ke is right, there is not specific power of dispensation granted for the situation you seem to be requesting. The desecration of the Diocesan Bishop will have to be relied upon.

 

[suissemissed]

From what I know, in order for marriage to even be valid for Catholics, it must be done with an exchange of vows in the presence of a priest/deacon/other authorized pastor with two witnesses. What we’re seeking is a dispensation to fill out the legal paperwork so that we’re married in the eyes of the State, but not before God and the Church (because we don’t want a civil ceremony with an exchange of vows or anything, just a simple “agreement to be married” contract before a judge/notary, which I believe some states here in the U.S. have).

 

[Seatuck]

From what I know, in order for marriage to even be valid for Catholics, it must be done with an exchange of vows in the presence of a priest/deacon/other authorized pastor with two witnesses. What we’re seeking is a dispensation to fill out the legal paperwork so that we’re married in the eyes of the State, but not before God and the Church (because we don’t want a civil ceremony with an exchange of vows or anything, just a simple “agreement to be married” contract before a judge/notary, which I believe some states here in the U.S. have).

This is not done in the US as far as I know. In the US the Church acts as the state representative in marriages. In Europe and elsewhere the couple gets married by the state first and then goes to the Church.

In any event go as the priest to find out if it is possible. Let us know the outcome.

 

[Seatuck]

Thanks for the congratulations!

My fiancé has spoken to an attorney who assured him that there would not be a problem with doing it this way. We wouldn’t be doing anything illegal.

What I want to know is why the Church doesn’t see it as being sinful even though it seems we are taking away from the sacredness of marriage by marrying civilly.

[Oh, I’m a girl, btw! Fiancé is for males, and fiancée is for females ]

In the US this would normally be considered sinful if you don’t get some type of dispensation or permission from your Bishop. You need to discuss this with the church and see what can be done.

 

[mosher]

In the US this would normally be considered sinful if you don’t get some type of dispensation or permission from your Bishop. You need to discuss this with the church and see what can be done.

Agreed.

This is not done in the US as far as I know. In the US the Church acts as the state representative in marriages. In Europe and elsewhere the couple gets married by the state first and then goes to the Church.

In any event go as the priest to find out if it is possible. Let us know the outcome.

Anyone authorized by the State can register and usually validate (some states that is done by another entity such as the State or County Clerk). This is what would be called “getting married by the JP.” So, this civil responsibility can be achieved without clergy present.

From what I know, in order for marriage to even be valid for Catholics, it must be done with an exchange of vows in the presence of a priest/deacon/other authorized pastor with two witnesses. What we’re seeking is a dispensation to fill out the legal paperwork so that we’re married in the eyes of the State, but not before God and the Church (because we don’t want a civil ceremony with an exchange of vows or anything, just a simple “agreement to be married” contract before a judge/notary, which I believe some states here in the U.S. have).

That is why I urge you strongly, and as soon as possible, to meet with the local Pastor of the Parish and/or the Judicial Vicar of the local Diocese. Only they, really, have the competence to deal with this issue.

The moral question that was asked earlier is a different issue all together. What you two are trying to achieve and what was the situation expressed earlier is really a comparison between apples and oranges. So, put your minds at ease for now. The public scandal that arrises from entering into an invalid marriage has mostly to do with living in a state of concubinage. Just make sure you two are living together … and the rest.

 

[francisca]

What is the difference between taking communion in a protestant church, and marrying civilly. Both of those seem to be taking away the sacredness of those sacraments

My opinion, if both of you really sincere with the marriage, there is nothing wrong with your plan to marry civilly first, then marry in the church later. Your faithful love for each other is the real sacrament that you give to one another. As for the administration of sacrament in a ritual, that is the formulation of what is real.

If you still have doubt about this, then please read the book of Genesis where God created eve for adam. They were created for each other by God, and God bless them. There were no formal marriage rites, yet their marriage was real, because of their faithful love for each other, and that God bless them in their love.

The ritual of sacrament administration is only to formulate the abstract divine concept to become a formal institution. This formality will make it easier for us to grasp divine order into our worldly minds.

 

[mosher]

My opinion, if both of you really sincere with the marriage, there is nothing wrong with your plan to marry civilly first, then marry in the church later. Your faithful love for each other is the real sacrament that you give to one another. As for the administration of sacrament in a ritual, that is the formulation of what is real.

If you still have doubt about this, then please read the book of Genesis where God created eve for adam. They were created for each other by God, and God bless them. There were no formal marriage rites, yet their marriage was real, because of their faithful love for each other, and that God bless them in their love.

The ritual of sacrament administration is only to formulate the abstract divine concept to become a formal institution. This formality will make it easier for us to grasp divine order into our worldly minds.

Sorry but I couldn’t let this alone. This is not in any way a Catholic understanding of Marriage or any of the Sacraments for that matter. The Sacrament of Marriage is not constituted by the couple. The Sacrament is constituted by the confluence of the couple, along with the minister in the sacramental act. In other words, for a Catholic a marriage cannot exist unless it ordinarily takes place in the canonical form. The rite of marriage is not simply empty ritual. Rather, it is an effective ritual. This is the same with every Sacrament.

 

[suissemissed]

Everyone, we have an update We spoke to our pastor today, and explained the whole situation to him. He said that if we were to marry in a non-Catholic ceremony before our reception into the Church (we’re both candidates in the RCIA program right now), we would have a valid sacramental marriage, and would not be committing any sin, because canon law is only binding on Catholics. However, we couldn’t do it after our reception… it would be invalid and sinful then if we attempted marriage apart from a Catholic ceremony. Our pastor also called a canon lawyer just to make sure he was right. Thanks for your answers, everyone!

 

[1ke]

we’re both candidates in the RCIA program right now)

This was a rather **large **detail to leave out of your post.

Neither you nor he are Catholics, therefore the Church’s marriage laws do not apply to you.

 

[mosher]

This was a rather **large **detail to leave out of your post.

Neither you nor he are Catholics, therefore the Church’s marriage laws do not apply to you.

Seriously, this would have helped a lot.

 

[francisca]

Sorry but I couldn’t let this alone. This is not in any way a Catholic understanding of Marriage or any of the Sacraments for that matter. The Sacrament of Marriage is not constituted by the couple. The Sacrament is constituted by the confluence of the couple, along with the minister in the sacramental act. In other words, for a Catholic a marriage cannot exist unless it ordinarily takes place in the canonical form. The rite of marriage is not simply empty ritual. Rather, it is an effective ritual. This is the same with every Sacrament.

Some catholic couple get married civilly, but later they decide to get married sacramentally.

My opinion : their love to one another and gods blessings is the true sacrament. Yes, theoretically a couple do not have god’s blessings if they have not sacramentally married. But if their faithful love is true : If one of the couple refuse to get married sacramentally, it is still beneficial to get married civilly, then sacramentally later, rather than cohabitation without any marriage at all. Their decision to get married sacramentally later is also God’s grace.

That was my opinion before knowing the last fact that they are RCIA candidates, and not because one of them refuse to get married in the church.

 

[phoooiee]

Some catholic couple get married civilly, but later they decide to get married sacramentally.

My opinion : their love to one another and gods blessings is the true sacrament. Yes, theoretically a couple do not have god’s blessings if they have not sacramentally married. But if their faithful love is true : If one of the couple refuse to get married sacramentally, it is still beneficial to get married civilly, then sacramentally later, rather than cohabitation without any marriage at all. Their decision to get married sacramentally later is also God’s grace.

That was my opinion before knowing the last fact that they are RCIA candidates, and not because one of them refuse to get married in the church.

I was married to my husband civilly for a long time before we got our marriage convalidated.
We did the convalidation simply to follow the “rules.”

There is no question that it changed the nature of our relationship in profound ways, although neither of us had expected it.

The sacrament does something over and above the couple’s love for one another. Things are totally different now.

I wouldn’t have thought so either before actually having the experience.