CIVIL RIGHTS discrimination based on sex?

[johntkd]

Ok I was going over MY RCIA booklet and came to something that bothers me quite a bit.

In the “social Justice” booklet # C14 Catechumenate
on the back page it CLEARLY states that

CIVIL RIGHTS: "The church considers discrimination based on sex,
race, ethnicity or age as constituting a GRAVE injustice and an affront to human dignity.IT must be AGGRESSIVELY resisted by every Individual and rooted out of EVERY INSTITUTION"

does that last part exclude the church itself as it discriminates based on sex alone all over the place within the church.
FEMALE PRIESTS?? not allowed why because of thier sex.and only reason…

whats up with this can anyone help or offer why the church is allowed to do what they say to fight against aggressivly.?

kind of hard to consider things in an RCIA class when its even presented as a do as we say not as we do type of thing…

Please help with this…

 

[ReformedCatholic]

Wow, what an excellent point.

I have no idea how they can reconcile this. It will be interesting to hear various rationalizations though. LOL

 

[Corki]

This has been discussed on numerous threads and you can do a search to find all of the specific arguments.

The short answer is that it isn’t discrimination to not do what you CANNOT do. No institution CAN make a woman a priest just as no one can make a man a mother.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

Corki:

This has been discussed on numerous threads and you can do a search to find all of the specific arguments.

The short answer is that it isn’t discrimination to not do what you CANNOT do. No institution CAN make a woman a priest just as no one can make a man a mother.

This makes no sense.

Although biologically men can not be mothers, men take on the role of mother all the time, especially when the mother is absent.

Certainly there is no biological limit that prevents women from the role of the priesthood. Therefore, a woman can be a priest.

The Church’s policy here would appear to be discriminatory.

 

[I_A]

Is the fact that Jesus is a man important?

 

[InSearchOfGod]

ReformedCatholic:

Certainly there is no biological limit that prevents women from the role of the priesthood. Therefore, a woman can be a priest.

The Church’s policy here would appear to be discriminatory.

Yes, it is discriminatory… perhaps they should have mentioned that in the RCIA handbook. God is discriminatory by creating men and women to begin with. But this depends on how you define discriminatory. “To make distinctions” is one definition, and this is certainly not inherently bad. But “prejudice” is, because it implies making judgment. Certainly we should not judge others.

To understand why a woman can not be a priest, perhaps this would be a good starting point: catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0201sbs.asp

It has nothing to do with the notion that a woman would be inherently bad as a priest… just as the biological fact that men can not get pregnant has nothing to do with the notion that men would be bad at being pregnant… the biological fact is not a result of someone’s prejudice.

I have a female friend who still wants to be a priest, and she will not change her mind.

 

[InSearchOfGod]

InSearchOfGod:

To understand why a woman can not be a priest, perhaps this would be a good starting point: catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0201sbs.asp

Not to mention all the other threads about his topic throughout the forum…

 

[puzzleannie]

johntkd:

states that

CIVIL RIGHTS: "The church considers discrimination based on sex,
race, ethnicity or age as constituting a GRAVE injustice and an affront to human dignity.IT must be AGGRESSIVELY resisted by every Individual and rooted out of EVERY INSTITUTION"

does that last part exclude the church itself as it discriminates based on sex alone all over the place within the church.
FEMALE PRIESTS?? not allowed why because of thier sex.and only reason…
…

the social justice teaching you cite refers to civil rights. the call to the priesthood is a privilege and a demand conferred by God on certain chosen individuals, not a civil right. Civil rights are those that deal with civic life and duties such as voting, citizenship, jury duty and participation in the role of a citizen of a nation. they do not relate to privileges reserved for the Divinity.

 

[thistle]

CCC 1577 "Only a baptized man (vir) validly receives sacred ordination."66 The Lord Jesus chose men (viri) to form the college of the twelve apostles, and the apostles did the same when they chose collaborators to succeed them in their ministry.67 The college of bishops, with whom the priests are united in the priesthood, makes the college of the twelve an ever-present and ever-active reality until Christ’s return. The Church recognizes herself to be bound by this choice made by the Lord himself. For this reason the ordination of women is not possible.

 

[1ke]

johntkd:

In the “social Justice” booklet # C14 Catechumenate on the back page it CLEARLY states that

CIVIL RIGHTS: "The church considers discrimination based on sex,race, ethnicity or age as constituting a GRAVE injustice and an affront to human dignity.IT must be AGGRESSIVELY resisted by every Individual and rooted out of EVERY INSTITUTION"

Well, I’d suggest you read the Catechism, and in context of “love thy neighbor”. See:

christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/commune.html#JUSTICE

What the Catechism actually says is:

The equality of men rests essentially on their dignity as persons and the rights that flow from it: Every form of social or cultural discrimination in fundamental personal rights on the grounds of sex, race, color, social conditions, language, or religion must be curbed and eradicated as incompatible with God’s design.

johntkd:

does that last part exclude the church itself as it discriminates based on sex alone all over the place within the church. FEMALE PRIESTS?? not allowed why because of thier sex.and only reason…

The Church does not discriminate against women.

Ordination is not a fundamental personal right, as no Sacrament is. Sacraments are gifts from God, instituted by Christ, for our salvation. Ordination is properly ordered to men, by Christ’s design.

Saying that women’s inability to be ordained is discrimination is the same as saying men cannot be mothers is discrimination. It’s not possible for a woman to be ordained. The Church does not simply choose to exclude women. Women, by their very nature, cannot be priests.

johntkd:

whats up with this can anyone help or offer why the church is allowed to do what they say to fight against aggressivly.?

The Church does not discriminate against women. Please read the papal encyclical on Holy Orders and also the Catechism on th subject. You can get the papal encyclical at EWTN or the Vatican website.

johntkd:

kind of hard to consider things in an RCIA class when its even presented as a do as we say not as we do type of thing…

The Church was founded by Christ, and cannot error in Faith and Morals. Your trust in the Church is very lacking if this has you troubled. The Church is Christ’s Bride. She is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. All Truth flows from her. So, please consider your issue with the authority of the Church to teach on faith and morals. As a former Protestant, I can understand that you do not understand the why of every teaching. But, that does not mean that the teaching is wrong.

Please help with this…

 

[Brendan]

The fact that a woman cannot recieve the Sacrament of Holy Orders bars women from serving as preists.

Because such service is simply not possible, there is no discrimination

In much the same way that the Church does not fight for males to enter into the institution of Motherhood.

The very fact that men cannot bear children bars men from that institution in a way that is non discriminatory.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Civil Rights have to do with the actual Rights an individual in society has.

For example, having a driver’s license is a privilege, not a right. This is why those with epilepsy can be denied one.

Voteing in the USA is a right. This is why those with epilepsy can not be denied when they go to vote.

Ordination to the priesthood is a privilege, not a right. No one can claim to be called to be a priest without God, thought His Church, calling them forward to ordination.

From the Catechism;
1578 No one has a right to receive the sacrament of Holy Orders. Indeed no one claims this office for himself; he is called to it by God. Anyone who thinks he recognizes the signs of God’s call to the ordained ministry must humbly submit his desire to the authority of the Church, who has the responsibility and right to call someone to receive orders. Like every grace this sacrament can be received only as an unmerited gift.

See Hebrews 5:4.

One must also note, that this is like any other employment. No one has a right to work at any job. Lets say I wanted to be a mailman. If I apply and am turned down, does that mean my civil rights have been violated?

I wonder why the OP has yet to respond to the replies so far.

 

[johntkd]

thistle:

CCC 1577 "Only a baptized man (vir) validly receives sacred ordination."66 The Lord Jesus chose men (viri) to form the college of the twelve apostles, and the apostles did the same when they chose collaborators to succeed them in their ministry.67 The college of bishops, with whom the priests are united in the priesthood, makes the college of the twelve an ever-present and ever-active reality until Christ’s return. The Church recognizes herself to be bound by this choice made by the Lord himself. For this reason the ordination of women is not possible.

ok so basically in short God wants us to discriminate based on sex but the church does not?

or as a Previous post said its based on “privilege” that being the case then it would be ok to not allow a woman to do many things as long as we term it a privi, an example would be I need a new VP for my company so i can avoid using a woman because its a privi to be at that job,its not thier right to have it its based on whom I choose which makes it a privi so to speak.

also I would not have to pay them “top dollar” for a job because i am not a union place and pay is based on other things its not guaranteed and raises are based on privi so i can pay a man 20 dollars an hour and the woman 6 or 7.

see how that word can work against things.

I am not saying the church is wrong or right at this point but if they are going to make such a harsh statement they need to back it up with some facts about how they percieve themselves in the right, not just leave it as a “because we say so”

I know the biblical facts,and understand them as well. my feelings at this point was the church should have left that statement out of the booklet or rephrased it into logical terms
its kind of hard to stand against something when you make the stand and you get asked what religion you are and after saying you lose all credibility to what you are making a stand against
because your own religion is as guilty of what you are trying to fight.

make any sense?

come on give me some ammo please, you cant fight a fight like this based on a because God said so,Because nowhere in scripture is it written,its all based on what happened as an example.

 

[johntkd]

ByzCath:

Civil Rights have to do with the actual Rights an individual in society has. .

Ok this is also what i was thinking as well.and as I replied to a previous post without further reading i am replying to yours because you had asked why I haddnt replied yet

the reason I had not replied back was I actually was sleeping for the first time in about 40 hours.

now being as I could end up replying many times to posts i will
post this and then read all posts then reply again at the end

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

johntkd:

Ok this is also what i was thinking as well.and as I replied to a previous post without further reading i am replying to yours because you had asked why I haddnt replied yet

the reason I had not replied back was I actually was sleeping for the first time in about 40 hours.

now being as I could end up replying many times to posts i will
post this and then read all posts then reply again at the end

Understandable.

I will wait until you respond to my reply before I reply again. I had feared that this thread was a set up and that you might be one of those hit and run posters. I am glad that you are not.

 

[Kendy]

I_A_:

Is the fact that Jesus is a man important?

I don’t see why it should be?

Kendy

 

[Corki]

ReformedCatholic:

This makes no sense.

Although biologically men can not be mothers, men take on the role of mother all the time, especially when the mother is absent.

Certainly there is no biological limit that prevents women from the role of the priesthood. Therefore, a woman can be a priest.

The Church’s policy here would appear to be discriminatory.

There is a biological limit that exists for anyone who is not a male to be ordained. Ordination is not an appointment or a “promotion” it is a Sacrament - one that will only “work” if the person is male.

To stretch the ‘mother’ analogy further, you say

men take on the role of mother all the time, especially when the mother is absent

.

and this is true. But that doesn’t make them actual mothers. Women (and lay men) can be given many of the duties of priests when a priest is absent. For example, giving Communion to the sick or homebound, leading a Communion service when there is no priest to say Mass or even administering a parish (some people don’t like it and there are many reasons why it might be a bad idea, but it is possible). In fact, in the latter case, in my experience it is more often that a woman is asked to take on these responsibilities than a man. Is this then reverse discrimination? There are women in the Curia, women have been named Doctors of the Church and Saints. The Chuch puts forward women in every way that it CAN.

 

[johntkd]

Ok a lot of you make some good points and help out in the understanding,

sorry the post about Jesus beinga man makes no sense whatso ever
Jesus was God in a mans body born of man, Man cannot walk on water.

we are Taught Mary was the first head of the Church was Mary not Female?

and who is to decide whom recieves Holy Orders?
I am sure there is no Phone to heaven to verify if a woman feels she was called.

do not think I am against the Church, I am not.
we are called upon to question things,if we didnt how would the Church Know what to take a stand on or why would they even Bother to define anything?
so no its not a sin or “against” the Church to question.

Has anyone ever thought that maybe questions we have are coming from something higher up?
if holy orders are given why not “holy” questions?
maybe they are given because in our life at some point we will need a “proper” answer to defend our faith or to help someone choose a path.who is to say for sure.I know I feel its wrong to tell someone whom has questions that they dont have Faith or are sinning,to me it shows actually More Faith as they are trying to have all the facts, everything flows in circles also, what is answered today about this question could as well pertain to hundreds of other potential questions and topics.
to merely sit back and say “because the Church says so”.
If we have no questions How would we Know if we are being taught in our individual Churches properly?
think about that, lets say someone fell off the path and wanted some “power” they could be leading a parrish on a bad path, with nobody questioning it where would it stop?
they wouldnt know it was wrong and would assume it to be truthful and taught by the Church so to speak.
afterall isnt a priest still a man?and capable of sinfulness,
or even a Bishop? all are human and capable of falling down.

I hope what I am saying makes sense, Its not in an accusing way that I posted these thoughts out,But this forum is designed for just such questions, to be answered, we have a wealth of knowledge at our disposal here,we should not be afraid to use it because someone will lable us a sinner or against our Faith.
these questions DEEPEN Faith not make it less
John

 

[Brendan]

johntkd:

sorry the post about Jesus beinga man makes no sense whatso ever
Jesus was God in a mans body born of man, Man cannot walk on water.

Jesus is Fully God and Fully Man, the concept of Jesus being God in man’s body is a condemed heresy.

(and Peter walked on water, does that mean he was God?)

we are Taught Mary was the first head of the Church was Mary not Female?

Mary is the Mater Ecclesia, Mother of the Church. The Head of the Church is always Christ. Peter was the Rock on which the Church was built and it’s first temporal head.

and who is to decide whom recieves Holy Orders?
I am sure there is no Phone to heaven to verify if a woman feels she was called.

A valid calling has three parts, all of which must be present for a call to Holy Orders to be valid

It must orginiate from the Holy Spirit, it must be accepted by the the person and accepted by the Church as a whole.

If any of those are missing, the call in not a true one, no matter how an individual person ‘feels’ about it. Feelings alone do not make something true.

do not think I am against the Church, I am not.
we are called upon to question things,if we didnt how would the Church Know what to take a stand on or why would they even Bother to define anything?
so no its not a sin or “against” the Church to question.

No, it’s not a sin to question, but when the answer it given, there is no longer a need to ask, now is there?

Has anyone ever thought that maybe questions we have are coming from something higher up?
if holy orders are given why not “holy” questions?
maybe they are given because in our life at some point we will need a “proper” answer to defend our faith or to help someone choose a path.who is to say for sure.I know I feel its wrong to tell someone whom has questions that they dont have Faith or are sinning,

If one denies that the Church has the authority to answer the questions, then one does sin. Do you doubt that the Church has the authority to give you the answer to you question?

And if you do doubt the Church has the authority, why even bother asking the Church the question? It would seem pointless to queuery a source that cannot answer.

If we have no questions How would we Know if we are being taught in our individual Churches properly?

Do you hold that the Church could proclaim error on the matter of a Sacrament?

 

[IanS]

One reason for the male-only priesthood is very straightforward and (should be, anyway) uncontroversial. Jesus Christ was a Man. Given the fact that every validly-ordained priest functions in Persona Christi at Mass (since it is Christ Himself who transforms the elements and performs the supernatural consecration, not the priest, who “stands in” for Him), it is altogether appropriate that men only are ordained. Of course we also have clear instructions and examples of Scripture which ought to be sufficient in and of themselves to settle this question. None of the twelve disciples were women. Jesus must have had a good reason for that, whether or not we understand it. I myself would much rather trust Him and apostolic, Christian Tradition, rather than the fads and fancies of our post-modern, sexually-libertine age.

Furthermore, the highest of God’s created beings, and the only sinless creature who ever lived - according to Catholicism - is a woman (the Blessed Virgin Mary), and a woman first saw the risen Jesus (Mary Magdalene: John 20:11-18). No man - by virtue of “unfair” biology - ever had the immense, unfathomable honor of “bearing God” and thus entering into that kind of incomprehensible biological intimacy with Jesus Christ. Protestants give us misery for allegedly venerating Mary as next to God, while feminists excoriate us for lowering the status of women vis-a-vis men! Ironies never cease!

Even though Jesus was a celibate male He does have a bride (and NO it’s not Mary Magdalene :whacky: ) it is the Holy Catholic Church He founded. That is why the Catholic Church is called the “Bride of Christ” with Jesus Christ as her Bridegroom. That is why the Catholic Church is always referred to as “her” or “she”, because the Church is feminine and Jesus is masculine.

When a man is ordained as a priest he becomes alter Christus. Therefore, he does the same as Christ and makes the Church his bride. So if a woman became ordained wouldn’t she become a bride of the “Bride of Christ”, and thus make it a **lesbian ** relationship?

The Catholic Church makes it very clear that Jesus is male and the Church is female. That’s why men wanting to answer a religious vocation become married to the “Bride of Christ” and women answer a religious vocation become married to Jesus Christ, the bridegroom.

What’s so wrong with being married to Jesus?