CIVIL RIGHTS discrimination based on sex?

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Tantum ergo:
Kendy, your perception that women are less “powerful” in the church is troubling.

The Church may exist “in” this world, but it is not “of” this world. Any sort of temporal “power” that exists does not exist to affect THIS world but the next.

Jesus Christ, the most POWERFUL BEING, CHOSE to be the most humble. GOD chose to become an infant, to live in poverty, to suffer a cruel death. . .for US.

Are we Catholic Christians because we seek to follow CHRIST? I think so.

Are we following Christ when we agitate for personal power, or complain bitterly that we think we’re getting a short end of the deal? Did Christ EVER agitate for personal power? Did He ever complain that Peter got to be Pope here on earth? Did He go around complaining about the Roman occupation? Did He go parading around asking for the best seat in the house? .
So, are you saying that Christians should never complain if they feel they are being unjustly excluded?
Tantum ergo:
You might not see it this way but a woman is actually quite powerful in the way the CHURCH sees it. St. Paul himself speaks of being powerful in his WEAKNESS. Women, lacking power in a TEMPORAL way, thus are more powerful in the ETERNAL way. They are closer to the humility of Christ. They are the peacemakers, they are the caretakers, they are the “poor in spirit”. .
Then why should men be denied this great privilege?
Tantum ergo:
As a woman, I find the idea of sublimating my feminine gifts (valuable gifts bestowed on me by the Creator) and attempting instead to forcibly seize or DEMAND an incorrected perceived “worldly power” just because it is something I think I’m entitled to, as a woman, because “men had it for centuries so now it’s MY TURN”–is about as far from the teachings of CHRISTIANITY as can be.
I don’t know what feminine gifts you have. I don’t know who is asking you to sublimate them. I am not suggesting that you or I are lesser human beings because we don’t have positions of power in the church or anywhere else. I am simply saying that I am suspicious of any organization where only a select group of men get to dictate what everyone else should be doing. I am suspecious because it’s what men have done and continue to do throughout most of the world. Excluding women is incredibly pervasive and worldly and I am not surprised that it takes place in the church.

Kendy
 
Well, you see, Kendy, I guess my worldview might not be considered very “modern”- I think of it as more an “eternal” worldview.

When Jesus walked the earth, at the time he walked that particular society was “modern”–THEN. In that “modern” society, certain cultures had certain percepts, mores, etc. that do not exist, as a SANCTIONED practice, today, like chattel slavery.

Likewise, when Moses led the tribes out of Egypt, the society of that THEN “modern” time had certain percepts and mores. The ancient Egyptians rulers I believe, in company with other civilized societies, thought that in royalty more perfect unions resulted from brother-sister marriage, a concept which certainly is not sanctioned today.

In ALL those times, there were always those who were somehow, some way, “privileged”, either because they were from a particular ethnic group, or belonged to a higher caste, or had more wealth, more beauty, more talent. . .you name it.

There is no such thing as a society where everybody everywhere is absolutely, completely, totally equal in every way. If there were, you wouldn’t like it, (Read Vonnegut’s short story “Harrison Bergeron”). People, while they are of equal intrinsic WORTH as human being, are not inherently equal, or interchangable, in other ways. I would not be able to manage BIll Gates’ money as well as he does if I suddenly changed places with him; I might never be able to do as well. Nor could I switch places easily with Queen Elizabeth II. Neither person is therefore SUPERIOR to me as a human being, nor am I INFERIOR to them as a human being.

But this is all secular. This is all related to the idea that POWER IS GOOD, that the only way I have WORTH is because I have POWER; that if I do not have POWER I am somehow lesser, somehow worthless. If I’m not somehow in the “upper echelons” of a group, then I’m just, well, not “equal”.

You seem to think that the main concern of a priest is POWER, of able to do things which only HE can do, as if that makes him “better” than a woman.

I’ve said this before: “valid matter”. Here are, as an example, two beautiful cups. One is plain glass, one is tempered glass. Both are glass, both are useful, both are containers. If you use the first and try to pour in an extra hot liquid, it will shatter. If you use the second, it will not shatter. This is due to the design of the maker. The tempered glass is not in itself “better” than plain glass, because of this or because it is more costly; the plain glass is not in itself “better” than tempered because it is more economical or more practical in everyday use for many purposes.

Women and men. Both are the same in essence, flesh and blood. Both can do many things equally well. Both are made in the image and likeness of God. But, because of the DESIGN of their CREATOR, one, and one only, is made for performing certain functions. That is not being unfair, that is the divine plan of the creator. If one sex perceives the other is “inferior” or “superior”, that is because they choose to see only from the “temporal” or “wordly” point of view, or because they get caught up in the idea that the only way to be equal is to be interchangable.

I’m a man’s equal in human worth. I am not a male “substitute” in ANYTHING; nor is a man a female “substitute” in anything.

I really wish you would read Ordinatio Sacerdolis and also On the Dignity of Women; I found them very helpful once I took a couple of doses of humility, ditched my “modernist relativism”, and let the “great physician” point the way. . .
 
Kendy–You’ll be thrilled, I’m actually going to make this one SHORT 😃

You are suspicious of a group, you say, where a group of men dictates what everybody else has to do, or believe. Hey, I might be suspicious too, BUT. . .

That is not the case in the Church, D.V. (Deo Volente, Thanks be to God).

What we have in the Church is God’s own word to us of what we are to do and believe. Not some “group of men” dictating to us.

Wow–what a relief! The scenario that you were worried about–doesn’t exist.
 
Tantum ergo:
Well, you see, Kendy, I guess my worldview might not be considered very “modern”- I think of it as more an “eternal” worldview.

When Jesus walked the earth, at the time he walked that particular society was “modern”–THEN. In that “modern” society, certain cultures had certain percepts, mores, etc. that do not exist, as a SANCTIONED practice, today, like chattel slavery.

Likewise, when Moses led the tribes out of Egypt, the society of that THEN “modern” time had certain percepts and mores. The ancient Egyptians rulers I believe, in company with other civilized societies, thought that in royalty more perfect unions resulted from brother-sister marriage, a concept which certainly is not sanctioned today.

In ALL those times, there were always those who were somehow, some way, “privileged”, either because they were from a particular ethnic group, or belonged to a higher caste, or had more wealth, more beauty, more talent. . .you name it.

There is no such thing as a society where everybody everywhere is absolutely, completely, totally equal in every way. If there were, you wouldn’t like it, (Read Vonnegut’s short story “Harrison Bergeron”). People, while they are of equal intrinsic WORTH as human being, are not inherently equal, or interchangable, in other ways. I would not be able to manage BIll Gates’ money as well as he does if I suddenly changed places with him; I might never be able to do as well. Nor could I switch places easily with Queen Elizabeth II. Neither person is therefore SUPERIOR to me as a human being, nor am I INFERIOR to them as a human being.

But this is all secular. This is all related to the idea that POWER IS GOOD, that the only way I have WORTH is because I have POWER; that if I do not have POWER I am somehow lesser, somehow worthless. If I’m not somehow in the “upper echelons” of a group, then I’m just, well, not “equal”.

You seem to think that the main concern of a priest is POWER, of able to do things which only HE can do, as if that makes him “better” than a woman.

I’ve said this before: “valid matter”. Here are, as an example, two beautiful cups. One is plain glass, one is tempered glass. Both are glass, both are useful, both are containers. If you use the first and try to pour in an extra hot liquid, it will shatter. If you use the second, it will not shatter. This is due to the design of the maker. The tempered glass is not in itself “better” than plain glass, because of this or because it is more costly; the plain glass is not in itself “better” than tempered because it is more economical or more practical in everyday use for many purposes.

Women and men. Both are the same in essence, flesh and blood. Both can do many things equally well. Both are made in the image and likeness of God. But, because of the DESIGN of their CREATOR, one, and one only, is made for performing certain functions. That is not being unfair, that is the divine plan of the creator. If one sex perceives the other is “inferior” or “superior”, that is because they choose to see only from the “temporal” or “wordly” point of view, or because they get caught up in the idea that the only way to be equal is to be interchangable.

I’m a man’s equal in human worth. I am not a male “substitute” in ANYTHING; nor is a man a female “substitute” in anything.

I really wish you would read Ordinatio Sacerdolis and also On the Dignity of Women; I found them very helpful once I took a couple of doses of humility, ditched my “modernist relativism”, and let the “great physician” point the way. . .
I have read both Ordinatio Sacerdolis and Dignity of Women. I also never said that you need to have power to be a worthwhile person.

Kendy
 
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Kendy:
First, of all priests do have power. The pope has a lot of power. He has more power than most CEO’s. This is not a bad thing. I am not saying the pope is in this because he was power, but he is still has a powerful position. The ability to direct the lives of billion people is powerful. This is not in itself a bad thing. The president of the United States has a lot of power. He can use that to serve the country and the world or for himself. Being a public servant is powerful. In fact, being able to serve others is always powerful. In service, you are saying that I have something that the other person does not. You are able to give of yourself because of your abundance. That puts the other person in your debt; it’s a powerful position.
Ah, I see now. You have a very misguided notion of power, and of the role of the priesthood. Likely nothing I will say will make a difference here.
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Kendy:
Second, correct me if I am wrong, but I was told that women cannot teach doctrine authoritively (I guess infallibly); that’s one of the reasons they can’t be bishops.
Only the Pope ex cathedra, or the College of Bishops in union, can teach infallibly. Women cannot be bishops because bishops come from among those who have received the Sacrament of Holy Orders. This has nothing to do with teaching doctrine authoritatively.
 
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mercygate:
I would suggest that anybody addressing this subject needs to read it. It addresses all of the questions posed on this thread. But it is short: only 9 pages. The whole natural law/sacramental theology side of this question is elucidated exhaustively in JP2’s *Theology of the Body. *The way the OP reduces the matter to “rights” – and civil rights at that – is like trying to get the “right” answer to the question, “What kind of sound does the color blue make?”

This is kind of an important issue to leave to “rattling.”
Please provide where I might get access to this information. It sounds interesting. Hopefully it will show better logic than “Jesus was male therefore all priests must be male.” Jesus also had long hair and a beard- therefore all priests must have long hair and a beard?

Incidentally, colors do make sound- at least to some people with a condition called synesthesia. Synesthesia is a condition where people’s senses blend together, such as seeing colors and tasting shapes.

In light of this information, your question “What kind of sound does the color blue make?” would be a valid question with a valid answer. Therefore, there may be instances or information that would make the asking of “why can’t women be priests?” a valid question with a valid answer.

According to one woman the sound the color blue makes is “C sharp.” 👍

See the link below to the Scientific American article, Seeing Colors, Tasting Shapes.

sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=0003014B-9D06-1E8F-8EA5809EC5880000
 
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ReformedCatholic:
Hopefully it will show better logic than “Jesus was male therefore all priests must be male.” Jesus also had long hair and a beard- therefore all priests must have long hair and a beard?
Its not just Jesus is a male, its Jesus is a male and preists act in the place of Jesus when they present themselves to the church in the person of Christ in the marriage feast we know as mass. (My theology might be slighlty off, I’m not very studied.) Since mass and marriage are closely related, well, I think others have explained it elsewhere on the forum better than I.

This world is one of marriage, man and woman, flesh and spirit, wisdom and action.

For the record its pretty likely Jesus had short hair, as
1 Cor 14:11:
Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him,
If Jesus had long hair i dont think Paul would have called it disgraceful. Its proably tradition (with a little t) that depicts Jesus as having long hair.
 
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ReformedCatholic:
Please provide where I might get access to this information. It sounds interesting. Hopefully it will show better logic than “Jesus was male therefore all priests must be male.” Jesus also had long hair and a beard- therefore all priests must have long hair and a beard?

Incidentally, colors do make sound- at least to some people with a condition called synesthesia. Synesthesia is a condition where people’s senses blend together, such as seeing colors and tasting shapes.

In light of this information, your question “What kind of sound does the color blue make?” would be a valid question with a valid answer. Therefore, there may be instances or information that would make the asking of “why can’t women be priests?” a valid question with a valid answer.

According to one woman the sound the color blue makes is “C sharp.” 👍

See the link below to the Scientific American article, Seeing Colors, Tasting Shapes.

sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=0003014B-9D06-1E8F-8EA5809EC5880000
Inter insigniores
 
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ReformedCatholic:
This makes no sense.

Although biologically men can not be mothers, men take on the role of mother all the time, especially when the mother is absent.

Certainly there is no biological limit that prevents women from the role of the priesthood. Therefore, a woman can be a priest.

The Church’s policy here would appear to be discriminatory.
God describes himself through Jesus as a male “He who has seen me has seen the Father.” Jesus the male gave bread and wine to the deciples and said “Do this in memory of me.” When the Priest consecrates the Host he becomes a visable Jesus, a woman could not do this. In the confessional Jesus is there through the Priest, a woman could not do this. Women can become Sisters, and like Mary achieve just as much love and respect while doing their Marian duties. How would we react if St. Joseph had not accepted Mary because of discrimination, saying “Its a man’s job to be the tabernacle for the Child Jesus .”
 
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