claim of infallibility is perhaps the greatest error in the Church

[paarsurrey]

Hi

One of our friends here has written:

Various parts of the Church (meaning different denominations) feel that they are incapable of error and that they are the only “true” church. The claim of infallibility is perhaps the greatest error in the Church and prevents the reunification of the one Christian Church into one organization.

How that error is to be corrected for reunification of the one Christian Church into one organization?

Any thoughts

Thanks

 

[angelusm]

Hi
How that error is to be corrected for reunification of the one Christian Church into one organization?

Any thoughts

Thanks

The dogma of the infallibility of the pope is not an error. Protestants critisize it while they believe in their own infallibility. There’s the Holy Spirit who teaches us everything that Jesus said and he guides the CC. How can there be reunification with those who don’t want any reunification? We have to pray for the unity of christians especially for conversion of protestants so that they could see their errors.

 

[swariffin]

Hi

One of our friends here has written:

How that error is to be corrected for reunification of the one Christian Church into one organization?

Any thoughts

Thanks

Dear Paar,

If you write like this, that means that you still don’t understand of the Catholic pope infallibility means. The infallibility is about the teaching only. The pope, for example, like to write letters either to the whole catholics or to the bishops only. We call the letter as encyclics. Those encyclics are about teaching, and is indeed infallible.

Do you believe your ProphetMessenger is infallible? If you don’t, then you should not put your faith in his teaching. If you do, then you believe that he is infallible. That is the importance of the infallibility status of the Pope in term of teaching. The Pope is the pontiff (bridge) between Christ and the Catholic, at least. So, the teaching of the Pope must come from Christ and protected by the Holyspirit as Jesus said in the gospel of John. If the teaching comes from Christ, then the Church cannot and will not teach the wrong things.

The same thing in your case. If you believe that your Prophet-Messenger is indeed the PromisedMessiah, then whatever his teaching must be infallible according to you. Otherwise, stop believing him, period.

Supposed that your ProphetMessenger (if he still lives) is betting with my Pope Benedict16 for (let’s say) US$10, on who is the winner of this coming Superbowl championship, or the Arsenal vs Manchester United. In this case, my pope’s position is fallible (or not infallible, whichever way you want to describe it). Do you see?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

The infallibility is about the teaching only. The pope, for example, like to write letters either to the whole catholics or to the bishops only. We call the letter as encyclics. Those encyclics are about teaching, and is indeed infallible.

The Vatican said that Jews wait for the same Messiah Christians do, even they reject the first appearance of Jesus and the idea that a Messiah can ever die to pay for sins of mankind.

Do you believe that is a valid and infallible position?

 

[paarsurrey]

There’s the Holy Spirit who teaches us everything that Jesus said and he guides the CC.

Hi

It is the Protestants who say the Holy Spirit guides them; now you also claim the same.

Incidentally, I have started a thread today titled " Whom does the Holy Spirit guide? "

Kindly go through it and let us know; if it is the Holy Spirit that guides the Catholics and Protestants and JWs, then why is the difference?

Surely that might mean the Holy Spirit is in error; which is not possible.

So who is in error?

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

Dear Paar,
The infallibility is about the teaching only. The pope

Hi

May be I could not right the OP correctly. The issue was not the Pope and his infallibility. The issue was the notion that every denomination ( there are said to be 33000+ of them) claim
"that they are the only “true” church", this is the greatest hurdle in reunification of the Church into ONE.

How to resove it?

Thanks

 

[swariffin]

The Vatican said that Jews wait for the same Messiah Christians do, even they reject the first appearance of Jesus and the idea that a Messiah can ever die to pay for sins of mankind.

Do you believe that is a valid and infallible position?

Dear FoA,

The problem is, the Jews failed to see the coming of the Messiah in the life of Jesus. The Jews are expecting the word of God to come and dwell among them, but they failed to see that the word of God was/is/will always be Jesus. The Jews expectation is correct, but they failed to recognized it. What’s wrong with that Vatican word. BTW, where do you see such word as the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church?

 

[swariffin]

Hi

It is the Protestants who say the Holy Spirit guides them; now you also claim the same.

Incidentally, I have started a thread today titled " Whom does the Holy Spirit guide? "

Kindly go through it and let us know; if it is the Holy Spirit that guides the Catholics and Protestants and JWs, then why is the difference?

Surely that might mean the Holy Spirit is in error; which is not possible.

So who is in error?

Thanks

Dear Paar,

Which Holyspirit that the Protestant claims? The one that leaves 32.000 denominations? Please ask them also.

 

[swariffin]

Hi

May be I could not right the OP correctly. The issue was not the Pope and his infallibility. The issue was the notion that every denomination ( there are said to be 33000+ of them) claim
"that they are the only “true” church", this is the greatest hurdle in reunification of the Church into ONE.

How to resove it?

Thanks

Dear Paar,

Who do you address this question to? to me? If that is so, my answer is simple. Make sure the Holyspirit who talks to me never bring me out of the unbroken chain of Christ’s authority from Peter at his time, until today in my time.

I think I have answered and reconciled your question in your started thread “Whom does the Holyspirit Guide?”.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Dear FoA,

The problem is, the Jews failed to see the coming of the Messiah in the life of Jesus. The Jews are expecting the word of God to come and dwell among them, but they failed to see that the word of God was/is/will always be Jesus. The Jews expectation is correct, but they failed to recognized it. What’s wrong with that Vatican word. BTW, where do you see such word as the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church?

A lot of Jews believe Messiah is already here as the State of Israel, and they are all Messiahs raising up the Tribes of Jacob.

A state which is essentially powered by Gentile kingdoms being Messiah is a far cry from any kind of Jesus who is powered by God alone.

What’s the difference between what the Vatican says and what the Roman Catholic Church says, aren’t they the same?

 

[paarsurrey]

Dear Paar,
Which Holyspirit that the Protestant claims? The one that leaves 32.000 denominations?

Hi

I think you don’t mean there are several Holy Spirit , one for the Catholics, another for the Protestants and yet another for the JWs ( and so on and so forth for all the 32000 denominations) and all guiding to different and opposite directions. Is it no baffling and paradoxical ?

May be it is no Holy Spirit; only imaginations; otherwise the Holy Spirit would have reunited the 32000 denominations into ONE.

I respect your religion.

Thanks

 

[cath0lic]

Dear Paar,

If you write like this, that means that you still don’t understand of the Catholic pope infallibility means. The infallibility is about the teaching only. The pope, for example, like to write letters either to the whole catholics or to the bishops only. We call the letter as encyclics. Those encyclics are about teaching, and is indeed infallible.

Ok, I am really starting to think I didn’t learn all that I should have in my eight years at a Catholic school, but where are these encyclics?

 

[ralphinal]

Ok, I am really starting to think I didn’t learn all that I should have in my eight years at a Catholic school, but where are these encyclics?

The encyclicals are instructional letters sent from the Pope to the various bishops, and through them the entire Church. Think of them as being like the Epistles in the New Testament.

 

[swariffin]

A lot of Jews believe Messiah is already here as the State of Israel, and they are all Messiahs raising up the Tribes of Jacob.

A state which is essentially powered by Gentile kingdoms being Messiah is a far cry from any kind of Jesus who is powered by God alone.

What’s the difference between what the Vatican says and what the Roman Catholic Church says, aren’t they the same?

Dear FoA,

Nothing in the mind of any Jews in Jesus time that there will be a modern state of israel now. If you go back to what Isiah was writing about Immanuel was nothing to do with modern kingdom. Eventhough they are thinking about a kingdom, it will be a Davidian Kingdom, not a state lead by Golda Myer, Simon Perez, etc. Surely the Roman Catholic Church when we say that means the Messiah as desribed by the prophets, not according to who do you call as “a lof of Jews”. They are not necessarily representing the whole Jews, let alone the Jews in Jesus time.

You are correct when you say the what the Vatican says is what Roman Catholic Church says. But still, you must distinguish between teachings and diplomatic words coming out of Vatican. Also, who the one issue the word? An official representative, or just somebody claim to be a representative.

 

[swariffin]

Hi

I think you don’t mean there are several Holy Spirit , one for the Catholics, another for the Protestants and yet another for the JWs ( and so on and so forth for all the 32000 denominations) and all guiding to different and opposite directions. Is it no baffling and paradoxical ?

May be it is no Holy Spirit; only imaginations; otherwise the Holy Spirit would have reunited the 32000 denominations into ONE.

I respect your religion.

Thanks

Dear Paar,

Off course I do not mean there are 32.000 Holyspirits. My question to those started a new denomination, including to Marthin Luther, was “Is it really the Holyspirit who made you separated from the unbroken chain of Christ’s authority started from Peter?” or “Does the Holyspirit really wants to create new churches?” I am affraid that those people listen to the wrong Holyspirit. For sure, the real Holyspirit will never create any denomination.

 

[pete_29]

Hi

I think you don’t mean there are several Holy Spirit , one for the Catholics, another for the Protestants and yet another for the JWs ( and so on and so forth for all the 32000 denominations) and all guiding to different and opposite directions. Is it no baffling and paradoxical ?

May be it is no Holy Spirit; only imaginations; otherwise the Holy Spirit would have reunited the 32000 denominations into ONE.

I respect your religion.

Thanks

Have you ever spoken to two people and each one understood you to say diferent things. One Message, Different interpretations.

 

[swariffin]

Ok, I am really starting to think I didn’t learn all that I should have in my eight years at a Catholic school, but where are these encyclics?

Dear brother,

Please don’t make yourself feel bad by not knowing this. I myself just know about the encyclic after being a Catholic for more than 20 years. The encyclic usually is written in Latin. But, you can get a copy in your local pharish already translated in your language. I even can get it in a Catholic bookstore for a nominal price in my hometown.

 

[swariffin]

Have you ever spoken to two people and each one understood you to say diferent things. One Message, Different interpretations.

That is why we have a magisterium, Pete. To make sure that no one abuse the Holyspirit by making false claims. BTW I also respect your religion. It does not matter whether you are Christian of Catholic I believe. It is the fruits that we all yield will matter. Forgive me if my words are to harsh. I do believe that all separations were based on human ego rather than really from the Holyspirit. But, I do see new positive developments to our final unification. To begin with, is the orthodox. Later, one step of a time will be others. In my country, the number of Protestant priests criticizing the Catholics are greatly diminishing. By saying this, I do not mean that the Catholic is the winner. It will be God who is the final winner. It is written in the Revelation. Remember the word Catholic means Universal, not an entity of denomination.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Dear FoA,

Nothing in the mind of any Jews in Jesus time that there will be a modern state of israel now. If you go back to what Isiah was writing about Immanuel was nothing to do with modern kingdom. Eventhough they are thinking about a kingdom, it will be a Davidian Kingdom, not a state lead by Golda Myer, Simon Perez, etc. Surely the Roman Catholic Church when we say that means the Messiah as desribed by the prophets, not according to who do you call as “a lof of Jews”. They are not necessarily representing the whole Jews, let alone the Jews in Jesus time.

You are correct when you say the what the Vatican says is what Roman Catholic Church says. But still, you must distinguish between teachings and diplomatic words coming out of Vatican. Also, who the one issue the word? An official representative, or just somebody claim to be a representative.

Jews know well that reformation of Israel represents Messianic prophecy fulfilled, but if it is not by the real Messiah then it is by a false one performing a miracle to deceive. That’s why devout Jews like Neturei Karta condemn Israel, they say Zionists are trying to play Messiah. But they are a small and hated group by a majority of Jews for saying such things.

So apparently the Vatican doesn’t know much about Jewish beliefs or is intentionally misleading. Doesn’t the Vatican need to agree with the Pope on the issues?

 

[pete_29]

That is why we have a magisterium, Pete. To make sure that no one abuse the Holyspirit by making false claims. BTW I also respect your religion. I do feel sorry that your fellow Ahmadians here in Indonesia are forced to denounce themselves out of Islam.

I was just trying to explain how there is one Holy Spirit but differing views.