Clarification - man loses faith

[Todd520]

I’d love to get clarification from Protestants on what happens in the below scenario.

Jack is a sinful man but at some point he repents, is baptized, and accepts Jesus as his saviour. (at this point everyone should agree Jack has salvation)

However, six months later, Jack has a relapse and returns to his deeply sinful ways, nor does he attend Church or repent his new sins

What happens to Protestant Jack - is he still saved?

If your answer is unique to your denomination, please identify.

 

[Todd520]

Since no Protestants are responding, I’d love to hear from anybody who has the theological background to comment

 

[ElizabethPH]

I’d love to get clarification from Protestants on what happens in the below scenario.

If your answer is unique to your denomination, please identify.

Well I believe the standard Protestant reply would be; “Jack didn’t really repent in the first place; if he had of he would not go back to his old ways”. So I guess therefore his baptism isn’t valid either because he really didn’t mean it when he repented. Or some such.

 

[Nine_Two]

The Protestant (read Calvinist, other branches don’t accept OSAS) answer wouldn’t be that he wasn’t repentant, but that he wasn’t saved in the first place.

 

[JonNC]

I’d love to get clarification from Protestants on what happens in the below scenario.

Jack is a sinful man but at some point he repents, is baptized, and accepts Jesus as his saviour. (at this point everyone should agree Jack has salvation)

The Lutheran response would be what Luther once said:
“There is no justification without sanctification, no forgiveness without renewal of life, no real faith from which the fruits of new obedience do not grow.”

One has free will to reject Christ, even if real faith was once present. Christ put in place confession/Absolution to help the sinful return to Christ. Jack, in the example above, has rejected Christ, and if he does not repent, his salvation is in jeopardy.

Jon

 

[Janet1983]

I’d love to get clarification from Protestants on what happens in the below scenario.

Jack is a sinful man but at some point he repents, is baptized, and accepts Jesus as his saviour. (at this point everyone should agree Jack has salvation)

Well there are two possibilities:

1. Jack was never really saved. Someone who has an encounter with the living God doesn’t just walk away as if nothing had happened. He will be changed effectively by the Lord, because He who started a good work in us will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. If he truly got saved He was changed from the inside out. God is the one who works that kind of a change. Salvation is embedded in repentance. It’s not like a flu shot. We can’t just say that we prayed a prayer and that’ll get us saved. Where there is no sincerity, there won’t be any change. God does however change people who are getting saved.
2. Jack was saved. Well, if he was, then he cannot be un-saved. If he was saved because of the work of God and not because of what he did, then how could he possibly get himself unsaved?

Both cases rest on the following logic:
A person who is saved by God through grace (and not by works) cannot possibly do anything to un-save himself. We cannot be snatched out of His hand.

If you say that that is possible, then how do you know that the devil hasn’t done so already? How do you know he won’t do it in the future? And if you die and go to heaven, whose merit is it? Wouldn’t you be going to heaven by the goodness of the devil?

If I cannot possibly work my way into heaven, but receive salvation as a gift from God, then I cannot possibly work my way out of that.
As a Christian I strive to please God in all that I do, but I also have the knowledge that no one is able to snatch me out of the Father’s hand.

 

[Todd520]

HI Janet,
First, my prayers are with your step grandmother!

Second, I agree that if Christ saves you, then you are changed. I’ve felt this myself
I don’t know if the change is permanent as I believe the devil does continue to tempt us
**Question **- I think you are saying that if someone sins after they claimed salvation, then it was never real for them

.

Well there are two possibilities:

1. Jack was never really saved. Someone who has an encounter with the living God doesn’t just walk away as if nothing had happened. He will be changed effectively by the Lord, because He who started a good work in us will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. If he truly got saved He was changed from the inside out. God is the one who works that kind of a change. Salvation is embedded in repentance. It’s not like a flu shot. We can’t just say that we prayed a prayer and that’ll get us saved. Where there is no sincerity, there won’t be any change. God does however change people who are getting saved.
2. Jack was saved. Well, if he was, then he cannot be un-saved. If he was saved because of the work of God and not because of what he did, then how could he possibly get himself unsaved?

Both cases rest on the following logic:
A person who is saved by God through grace (and not by works) cannot possibly do anything to un-save himself. We cannot be snatched out of His hand.

If you say that that is possible, then how do you know that the devil hasn’t done so already? How do you know he won’t do it in the future? And if you die and go to heaven, whose merit is it? Wouldn’t you be going to heaven by the goodness of the devil?

If I cannot possibly work my way into heaven, but receive salvation as a gift from God, then I cannot possibly work my way out of that.
As a Christian I strive to please God in all that I do, but I also have the knowledge that no one is able to snatch me out of the Father’s hand.

 

[Janet1983]

HI Janet,
First, my prayers are with your step grandmother!

Second, I agree that if Christ saves you, then you are changed. I’ve felt this myself
I don’t know if the change is permanent as I believe the devil does continue to tempt us
**Question **- I think you are saying that if someone sins after they claimed salvation, then it was never real for them

.

Thank you for your prayers.
I didn’t say that someone who is saved will never sin. I do sin and I am saved.
Someone who is saved has a completely different attitude towards sin. A saved person will not have the pleasure that comes out of it and a saved person will repent from their sins.
As much as I cannot work my way into heaven, I cannot lose my salvation though.
God works in His children to conform them more to His Son, but that does not mean that we are perfect.
In salvation we are being regenerated from spiritual death to spiritual life and we are being justified.
We are already perfected in the way that our sins are already forgiven, but that doesn’t mean that we will completely stop sinning.
Though I sincerely try…

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Since no Protestants are responding, I’d love to hear from anybody who has the theological background to comment

Dude, you waited an hour and a half. Come on.

If your answer is unique to your denomination, please identify.

Just to clarify, is Jack merely having a down point in his spiritual life, or is he completely unrepentant now and has completely detached himself from the church? If he’s just struggling I wouldn’t say he’s lost (in fact I’d say he’s normal), but if he’s unrepentant and leaving the church, then he sounds like a classic case of what is described in Hebrews 6.

For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned. [Hebrews 6:7-8; NASB]

The rain is the preaching of the gospel. The vegetation “useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled” are those who turn out, after their initial faith develops, to be true believers. Vegetation that is “worthless and close to being cursed” are those who, after their initial faith develops, turn out to not be of God’s flock.

The apostle John wrote:

They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. [1 John 2:19]

Those who leave are not true Christians. All that happened in their leaving was that the church was able to shift the wheat from the tare.

 

[JustaServant]

Because we Catholics view salvation as a process, not a one-time ‘event’, the answer would be that Jack reacted to an emotional appeal.
Sincerity is a hard thing to p(name removed by moderator)oint.

 

[Publisher]

“a sower went forth to sow…some seed fell upon stoney ground…some fell among the weeds…some fell among good ground.”

 

[Reuben_J]

Jack is a sinful man but at some point he repents, is baptized, and accepts Jesus as his saviour. (at this point everyone should agree Jack has salvation)

However, six months later, Jack has a relapse and returns to his deeply sinful ways, nor does he attend Church or repent his new sins

What happens to Protestant Jack - is he still saved?

We cannot judge what is in the heart of Jack. So to say that he was a believer or not in the first place is nonsensical. It is between Jack and God; and only Jack knows what he is doing; not any of us. Only God be the judge; not any of us especially if we try to figure out what he will be even before he dies.

We cannot guarantee heaven until the day we meet the Lord simply because we are humans and have free will and we change. Therefore a persevering Christian is one who always guard and protect his faith because it is a gift; but never it is guaranteed it will not be lost if he should backslide and gives it away to the enemy or allows the enemy to steal it.

That’s why Paul gave thanks for the faith of the Ephesans but nevertheless he always remembered them in his prayer. (Eph 1:15-16) Giving thanks because not everyone have the faith and pray because that situation may not last. Thus it needs to be guarded and protected. The faithful needs the prayers of every faithful to help them to sustain their faith.