Clarification of Viewpoint

[Servus_Pio_XII]

Recently, in the thread concerning head coverings, I posted that, congrats to her, she no longer “brought shame to her head”.

Many users commented negatively on this statement, one publicly announcing that it was “utter noncence”. The other sent me a private message to the effect of saying that my post was “uncharitable”.

Since the thread-in-question was subsequently closed, I dispatched messages in privy to both concerned parties.

However, the former is not, for whatever reason, receiving messages, and the latter asked me to subit this in public, rather than in the privy of a private message.

So, allow me now to explain the origin of this post. It is, actually, a direct quote from 1 Corinthians 11: 5, which reads:

But any woman who prays or prophecies with her head unveiled dishonours her head-it is the same as if her head were shaven

Now, forgive me for being so blunt, but the actual quote from the Bible is quite a bit more “uncharitable” than my post, yet no one would ever dare to say that St. Paul was “uncharitable”, right? Esp. when writing inspired scripture.

To the latter, all that I say is that he should make a few more enquiries as to the source of an opinion prior to dismissing it as “utter noncence”.

Hopefully, both the source of my quote, and opinion on this matter, are clarified to the satisfaction of this community.

Finis.

-Servus Pio XII

 

[Michael_Welter]

I’ve often wondered about that quote from Scripture, and have often been taught, by priests, that to interpret it that way is a Fundamentalist mistake. Taken in the context of the New Testament, I have been taught that a woman’s head covering is her husband, or father, if she isn’t married. Paul isn’t talking leterally. He is talking about a woman who has taken herself out from under the authority of a man, such as a woman who claims to have been ordained to the priesthood, or a woman who goes off and starts her own church.

 

[bear06]

Well, Servus, I am one who thought your post was, how shall I say, not nice. I am, however, happy to talk about Corinthians.

First, veiling was a discipline of the Church at the time Paul wrote. Disciplines can be changed by the pope. Just use for example the discipline of circumcision. Men were bound to this discipline until Peter changed it. Now, I’m sure some will agree but to most authorities, the discipline of veiling has been abrogated by the new Code. This is a whole other arguement though.

I have a few questions. #1 Do you believe that women who do not wear veils TODAY have “shamed their heads”? This would seem that you are saying this when you quote Corinthians. #2 Do you believe that women should never pray with their heads uncovered? It seems to me that many who believe #1 and that head coverings should be worn at Mass don’t actually follow Corinthians to the letter. Of course, I don’t believe that we do have to follow Corinthians because the Church has loosed this requirement.

I asked someone who quoted Corinthians a few times if they wore head coverings everytime they prayed but there was no answer. I, personally, know some who tell me I should be wearing a head covering based on Corinthians and yet they do not cover their heads everytime they pray. I just don’t really get this.

One last question just for you Servus. What exactly was your reasoning behind quoting Corinthians. I’ll be honest, I thought you were implying that those who do not wear head coverings were shaming their heads. If I was wrong, I am sorry.

 

[kamz]

Question: “Should Christian women wear head coverings?”

Answer: 1 Corinthians 11:3-16 addresses the issue of women and head coverings. This is admittedly a difficult passage to interpret and apply to today’s church. At that time, in some cultures, women wore head coverings to demonstrate submission to their husbands. If a woman were to remove her head covering, it would be equivalent to saying, “I refuse to submit to my husband.” Evidently, some women in Corinth were doing this very thing. As a result, Paul commands the women to wear head coverings to demonstrate their submission to their head, namely their husbands.

Now, in today’s culture, a woman wearing a head covering does not indicate submission to a husband. Hats are only fashion statements. Since a head covering no longer means what it meant in Bible times, women do not have to wear head coverings. Women should do whatever is culturally normal for demonstrating submission to their husband.

I found this on the web and thought it hit the nail pretty right on target

 

[Servus_Pio_XII]

bear06:

Well, Servus, I am one who thought your post was, how shall I say, not nice. I am, however, happy to talk about Corinthians.

First, veiling was a discipline of the Church at the time Paul wrote. Disciplines can be changed by the pope. Just use for example the discipline of circumcision. Men were bound to this discipline until Peter changed it. Now, I’m sure some will agree but to most authorities, the discipline of veiling has been abrogated by the new Code. This is a whole other arguement though.

I have a few questions. #1 Do you believe that women who do not wear veils TODAY have “shamed their heads”? This would seem that you are saying this when you quote Corinthians. #2 Do you believe that women should never pray with their heads uncovered? It seems to me that many who believe #1 and that head coverings should be worn at Mass don’t actually follow Corinthians to the letter. Of course, I don’t believe that we do have to follow Corinthians because the Church has loosed this requirement.

I asked someone who quoted Corinthians a few times if they wore head coverings everytime they prayed but there was no answer. I, personally, know some who tell me I should be wearing a head covering based on Corinthians and yet they do not cover their heads everytime they pray. I just don’t really get this.

One last question just for you Servus. What exactly was your reasoning behind quoting Corinthians. I’ll be honest, I thought you were implying that those who do not wear head coverings were shaming their heads. If I was wrong, I am sorry.

No, I just was a bit rash in my decision, and I knew that quote of scripture, so I thought it was appropriate. My mistake. :banghead:

 

[bear06]

kamz:

Question: “Should Christian women wear head coverings?”

Answer: 1 Corinthians 11:3-16 addresses the issue of women and head coverings. This is admittedly a difficult passage to interpret and apply to today’s church. At that time, in some cultures, women wore head coverings to demonstrate submission to their husbands. If a woman were to remove her head covering, it would be equivalent to saying, “I refuse to submit to my husband.” Evidently, some women in Corinth were doing this very thing. As a result, Paul commands the women to wear head coverings to demonstrate their submission to their head, namely their husbands.

Now, in today’s culture, a woman wearing a head covering does not indicate submission to a husband. Hats are only fashion statements. Since a head covering no longer means what it meant in Bible times, women do not have to wear head coverings. Women should do whatever is culturally normal for demonstrating submission to their husband.

I found this on the web and thought it hit the nail pretty right on target

I think this is a good point and I’ve got to say that my husband doesn’t want me to wear a headcovering so I would be just the opposite of submissive if I did. He’s seen how distracting it is to me and the kids as my 2 year old is trying to yank it off my head so that he can wear it. He wants me to miss as little of the Mass as I possibly can with a 2 year old and an up and coming grabber of head coverings!

So Servus, do you understand why people might be justifiably offended at you comment? If so, great!

 

[Servus_Pio_XII]

Quite well. In fact, hindsight dictates I should have put it in quotations and cited the Bible, rather than making it seem as if those were my own, deeply held viewpoints.

 

[bear06]

Servus Pio XII:

Quite well. In fact, hindsight dictates I should have put it in quotations and cited the Bible, rather than making it seem as if those were my own, deeply held viewpoints.

So you don’t think that women who don’t wear headcoverings shame their heads? Whew! Good for you. I knew where you were getting those words (believe me, I know that verse VERY well) but it did sound as if you think they applied to those who don’t cover their heads today.

 

[mamabear7]

You’re all being a bit disrespectful to Servus Pio XII and St. Paul here. All Catholic women ought to wear veils, hats, or other headcoverings on their heads during Mass at the very least. I wear a veil at every Mass out of humility and respect for God in the Blessed Sacrament. I wore it at Wal*Mart the other night in reparation for all the immodestly dressed women there tempting men. I don’t wear a veil every time I pray because I pray almost everywhere and some places aren’t good for veils because they might get them dirty or wet.

In all of Mary’s apparitions, she is wearing a veil. I think that says something, don’t you? She’s our model of how to act as a Christian so why not dress as modestly as she does, too?

my Mother my Confidence,
Corinne

 

[rcn]

mamabear7:

You’re all being a bit disrespectful to Servus Pio XII and St. Paul here. All Catholic women ought to wear veils, hats, or other headcoverings on their heads during Mass at the very least.

You forgot to add “this is my personal opinion; I know it doesn’t represent current Church teaching on the matter.” An oversight I’m sure.

I wore it at Wal*Mart the other night in reparation for all the immodestly dressed women there tempting men.

Wow.

 

[netmilsmom]

bear06:

I think this is a good point and I’ve got to say that my husband doesn’t want me to wear a headcovering so I would be just the opposite of submissive if I did. He’s seen how distracting it is to me and the kids as my 2 year old is trying to yank it off my head so that he can wear it. He wants me to miss as little of the Mass as I possibly can with a 2 year old and an up and coming grabber of head coverings!

So Servus, do you understand why people might be justifiably offended at you comment? If so, great!

I think you have totally hit the Head Covering issue. If your husband wants it, or is honored by it, do it.
If not, then don’t.

This is about honoring your husband. Not submission, but honor.
I get up and make my hubby lunch every day. I make him dinner. If he hated everything I made and I was upset that he didn’t eat it, how much good is it doing?

 

[netmilsmom]

mamabear7:

You’re all being a bit disrespectful to Servus Pio XII and St. Paul here. All Catholic women ought to wear veils, hats, or other headcoverings on their heads during Mass at the very least. I wear a veil at every Mass out of humility and respect for God in the Blessed Sacrament. I wore it at Wal*Mart the other night in reparation for all the immodestly dressed women there tempting men. I don’t wear a veil every time I pray because I pray almost everywhere and some places aren’t good for veils because they might get them dirty or wet.

In all of Mary’s apparitions, she is wearing a veil. I think that says something, don’t you? She’s our model of how to act as a Christian so why not dress as modestly as she does, too?

my Mother my Confidence,
Corinne

Our Mother, comes to us in the dress of her time on Earth. If she came dressed as a nun, would we believe it is her? We are only human afterall.
Modesty is one thing. Wearing a costume is another.

What you do is fine however, you can’t impose your ideas above what the church teaches. The church no longer requires headcoverings in Holy Mass.
I think that what you do is splendid, but it is your way of sacrificing. To impose your sacrifice on someone else is not theirs. Perhaps they fast when you don’t, or attend Holy Mass when you don’t. We must go with what the church states.

 

[mamabear7]

rcn:

You forgot to add “this is my personal opinion; I know it doesn’t represent current Church teaching on the matter.” An oversight I’m sure.
Wow.

What is so “wow” about that? All the immodesty out there sickens me. Our Lady of Fatima asked for prayer and sacrifice for sinners because there are so many sinners who go to hell without people to pray and sacrifice for them. I’m just following Our Lady.

I don’t care if women don’t wear veils to the Novus Ordo. It’s not proper. People also wear jeans to the Novus Ordo and the priest says nothing about it, which is ridiculous.

my Mother my Confidence,
Corinne

 

[bear06]

mamabear7:

You’re all being a bit disrespectful to Servus Pio XII and St. Paul here. All Catholic women ought to wear veils, hats, or other headcoverings on their heads during Mass at the very least. I wear a veil at every Mass out of humility and respect for God in the Blessed Sacrament. I wore it at Wal*Mart the other night in reparation for all the immodestly dressed women there tempting men. I don’t wear a veil every time I pray because I pray almost everywhere and some places aren’t good for veils because they might get them dirty or wet.

In all of Mary’s apparitions, she is wearing a veil. I think that says something, don’t you? She’s our model of how to act as a Christian so why not dress as modestly as she does, too?

my Mother my Confidence,
Corinne

Of course you don’t wear a veil everytime you pray. This is the whole point of this excercise. People follow their own interpretations of Corinthians. This is why we have the Church to tell us what is loose and bound for us. The Church in it’s current Code doesn’t tell us that we are bound to this act nor does it forbid it.

If you want to use Mary as your strict code of dress then why are you simply choosing a veil? or why not the plain veil she wore?

 

[bear06]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

I think you have totally hit the Head Covering issue. If your husband wants it, or is honored by it, do it.
If not, then don’t.

This is about honoring your husband. Not submission, but honor.
I get up and make my hubby lunch every day. I make him dinner. If he hated everything I made and I was upset that he didn’t eat it, how much good is it doing?

Believe me, if my husband wanted me wearing a veil, I’d wear one. If he wanted me wearing skirts everyday, I’d wear them too.