Clarification on leaving the Church

[OSN]

Jesus created something very honest and good, and simple. An look how humanity changed it.
An myself and a lot of people, see it the same way, I have come to terms with Jesus choosing to sacrifice himself for our own sake, but I only see that as an eternal gotcha of sorts. Because then in turn the Church declares humanity even upon birth to be in a state of sin, even though Christ died and rose from the dead, it isn’t enough apparently by Church thinking, so one has to be at peace with what the Church says in this regard, and go through the ringer of a process afterward. Baptism with in itself sounds pretty good, for me up until the point the Church says it is because we are marked with original sin. Yet the Church can’t seem to give an acceptable answer as to how Christ can defeat death and sin, yet not original sin. An then expect everyone to be okay with the answer.

But I know what is coming down the pipe, is that some where someone is going to want to say, well you have a lot of issues to work through, satan has tricked you to think this way, it is progressive thinking, heretical thinking, sinful thinking. Why not just go if you hate it so much. Well again, I can’t just go. Because it is a sin, that is well defined, an punishable . All through what the Church says is Gods kindness an love, Which only comes off as either God or the Church offering membership with open arms and flowers, and then once in, breaks out ever weapon possible to keep one in check and in membership.

Not to mention the willingness of the Church to then allow for divorce and annulments in the terms of marriage. By the way the Church demands that all Catholics go to Mass every week and holy days of obligation along with a ton of other demands, it would only make sense that the Church sticks to its own guns, and not allow for a marriage to ever be broken under any condition ever. But the Church then turns around and goes well, scripture, and human nature, and all of a sudden the Church needs to be a bit more lenient.

Two part reply.

 

[OSN]

I was just confirming which route you were taking in your response/ question was all. I have no need to have a discussion with you any more.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

Some follow up questions: when you say the OT laws were beyond unjust, does that mean that you also think God is unjust? What is your reaction to Christ’s words when he says,

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:17-18‬ ‭NABRE‬‬

You say that Jesus never created an institution. In your estimation, did Jesus make any provision for how His message would be spread through the world? If so, what?

I know I’m asking a lot of questions. Please bear with me. When I address your OP, I want to make sure that I’m actually address you according to your point of view rather than any assumption I might make about you.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

. I have no need to have a discussion with you any more.

Huh? That was kind of rude.

 

[DisorientingSneeze]

OP, after reading your posts in this thread, I have a book recommendation. Please give it a shot if you are able. Rediscover Catholicism by Matthew Kelly. It is available in many forms of print or audio. He uses some powerful analogies about the Mass and disliking things about the Mass in this book that I could try to reproduce here, but I know I wouldn’t do them justice.

Rediscover Catholicism https://www.amazon.com/dp/1937509672/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_O3WWCbMDB97NT

 

[TheLittleLady]

so you are saying there is no law , with in the Catholic Church that says it isn’t a sin to leave the Church

Apostasy is a sin. Schism is a sin.

CCC quotes for you:

817 In fact, “in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.” The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.

2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. " Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."

 

[TheLittleLady]

If I wasn’t a cradle catholic, and or had I the option to wait till I was an adult on if I wanted to join the Church or not. I can not honestly say that I would have. T

Let me take a swing at this one.

As parents, we make monumental decisions that will impact our children.

Baptizing them Catholic is one of those monumental decisions.

I compare it to another momumental decision, where the child will be born. In most cases, mom gives birth to you in the country in which she resides. As parents, we could choose to immigrate to another country and have our children be born in another country.

In my case, we decided that our son would be born an American citizen. As an adult, he is free to immigrate to another country, he can even renounce is American citizenship, but, that will never change the fact that he was born as an American. He would also then have to live with the ramifications of rejecting his American citizenship.

Your parents decided where you would be a citizen and that you would be Catholic.

You are, once of age, free to reject your birth country or the Faith of your baptism. As an adult, you will make that decision knowing the ramifications of changing either of those.

If you are still reading, remember, questioning one’s faith at some point is very natural. Do not be afraid to ask the hard questions.

 

[Sbee0]

I am looking for clarification as stated, on where it is stated in regards to those catholics who leave the church. More to the point of, anything that reads that it is a sin for a Catholic to leave the Church, and a statement also that it is either mortal or a venial sin. I need documentation, and I cant seem to find it in my R.C.Catechism, if it is in there, a link or page reference would be helpful. Also, there seems to be a never ending debate on the matter… But what I find resentment with, and if I am wrong ( which I am sure in someones mind I will be , but what ever ) The Church says it is a sin for Catholics to miss holy days of obligation ( which includes Sunday or weekly mass { not daily } ) then double dips on it by making it a sin to leave the Church… (What I expect to hear in response, is that it isn’t the Church punishing or creating said rules, but the person making the choice to leave and or not go to Mass as obligated / required.- this type of response I completely disagree with if any are out there, I understand the position, I just flat out disagree with it I am not trying to convince anyone of my position nor wish for anyone to try to sway me to agreeing with this type of response. ) I just find it hard to believe that Jesus ever intended for his Love and relationship to be this type of catch 22 with the Roman Catholic Church. An maybe this type of thinking is some form of " progressivism " .

I’m not sure what you’re asking here. We all have free will. You don’t want to attend Sunday mass? You’re free to do that but be aware that yes it is a grave sin to miss mass without a good reason. “Because I don’t want to go” is not a good reason.

Not possible to “leave” the Church. There is no “book of Catholics” to have yourself erased. You can deliberately have yourself excommunicated to separate yourself as much as possible from the Church but as I said in the other topic I can’t think of any reasons why one would do that.

I certainly hope we never see the day where the church adopts to “modern society”. For too many reasons to list here. I know the secular world demands it but honestly their demands and opinions have no relevance to me or the practice of my faith.

 

[Sbee0]

I appreciate the response Neithan, what I have trouble coming to grips with I suppose, is taking away the free will aspect of membership, If I wasn’t a cradle catholic, and or had I the option to wait till I was an adult on if I wanted to join the Church or not. I can not honestly say that I would have. The religious laws, are what they are, there is no getting around it. I understand that the concept of creating these laws are to protect not harm. But what the Church fails to acknowledge is that by creating a system that does not acknowledge up front that once you join, there is no out, that alone is a problem; If one chooses to willingly commit a sin, that is on the person. Even if that means leaving the Church, it to me becomes oppressive to not only create such religious laws, but redundant . Because now not only has a person committed a sin, but then the Church is also decreeing leaving or not attending mass a sin. Then I fall into, exactly is it a venial or mortal sin an then scruples follows.

First, the word “oppressive” has no place in any conversation about our Church. Saying our church is in any way oppressive is ignorant at best and radical anti-Catholic/Christian trash at worst.

If you are a lapsed Catholic then you are a lapsed Catholic. You have free will, we all do. I’m not going to encourage you to seek another faith community here for obvious reasons but the Church is not keeping you behind lock and key. But yes, you will be sinning if you don’t practice your Catholic faith. Why on earth would you expect anything different?

It sounds to me like a priest would be a much better place to raise these concerns and have them answered than an internet forum like this one.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

That isn’t helpful for the OP’s situation. It’s not even applicable.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

First, the word “oppressive” has no place in any conversation about our Church. Saying our church is in any way oppressive is ignorant at best and radical anti-Catholic/Christian trash at worst.

This isn’t helpful either. And IMO its also just reinforcing the OP’s opinion.

 

[Sbee0]

Sbee0:

First, the word “oppressive” has no place in any conversation about our Church. Saying our church is in any way oppressive is ignorant at best and radical anti-Catholic/Christian trash at worst.

This isn’t helpful either. And IMO its also just reinforcing the OP’s opinion.

Perhaps you missed the part of my post that said a priest would be best to answer such questions.

In this case I was simply referencing the word “oppressive” in the OP’s post. Our church is not oppressive. Period.

 

[TheLittleLady]

There are laws that clarify the sinful nature of leaving the Church.

The poster asked about them.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I would note the OP has been temporarily suspended, so not sure if he’s even following the thread at this point.

 

[Sbee0]

There are laws that clarify the sinful nature of leaving the Church.

The poster asked about them.

Any Catholic who really thinks the church is oppressive or talks about her in terms of “following rules” or “a guillotine” demonstrates a fundamental weakness and lack of understanding of their faith and their relationship with Jesus that probably cannot be addressed here on an internet forum, and is much better addressed in a conversation with a priest. I know it when I see it… been there done that.

And the meandering rant in the second post from OP confirms the above.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Yeah, TheMortenBay, me,and you all suggested the OP should go speak to a priest. His other similarly rambling and ranting thread on marriage rules of the church is to me more evidence suggesting a need for spiritual counseling. Unfortunately, people seem to turn to the Internet instead, maybe because it’s handier or more anonymous or easier to just get mad at random Internet posters who speak a hard truth to you, rather than having to make an appointment with a priest and hear him say it face to face. I also think there’s always some hope that a bunch of other posters will agree with or validate whatever positions contrary to the Church are being expressed.

 

[JW55]

The Catholic Church does take a legalistic approach to worship and definition of sins. This is in an effort to “clarify” things for us. We rely on Tradition and Magisterial teachings, as well as biblical teachings, the writings of the Fathers, to guide us to lead an inspired life. The Orthodox take as less legal perspective , such as to my knowledge you will be at Divine Liturgy or Mass on Sunday, but it is not written down. It is just understood that, of course you will be there. The guidelines are similar , but not defined or imposed through a written document by written rules.

I sense the OP wants to feel they are attending Mass or following other rules by their own choice rather than feeling forced to. To paraphrase a bit it seems the OP indicates they feel or know what is best for them. I think this sense is important but we also have to concede we do not always know what is best for us. Our relationship with God is indeed a “personal”, but it is also a “community of believers” that warrants a greater guidelines that discourages individuals from defining our own rules.

 

[Hoosier-Daddy]

I think it is really common for people to misrepresent their lives, thoughts and positions in the forums.
Agendas and skewed questions are common. Hopefully the OP can find peace. peace that will let the OP be able to logically discern God.

 

[PennyinCanada]

I came into the church in my 20’s. I grew up with an alcohol parent and it was a very dark, hopeless place for a child. Finding out that there was a God, that he loved me and died on the cross to open heaven for me, well, that was like stepping into a beam of sunlight after living in a dark world for years.

I can appreciate what you’re saying. Perhaps I would feel the same as you, being forced to be there in the pew because someone said so. The good news I have to say is that God wants more! He wants to walk with you every day, as soon as your feet hit the floor in the morning, and he wants to impact the world for good, with you. Your faith could be much more alive, in other words. Your faith could be much more intimate, more engaged, more animated. We serve a living God.

Tell God you want a closer walk with him, that you want to impact this world, that the world will be a better place because you were in it. Keep asking. During the day tell him that you can’t wait to see his plans unfold in your life. Send words of praise during the day, especially when you stub your toe and want to say bad words. Say Praise God instead. Let’s start the ball rolling!

May God bless you and keep you close.

 

[PennyinCanada]

I have a story to share.
A nice Catholic lady told me that one evening a lamp in her room burnt out. Nights are long in Canada and she didn’t have a replacement bulb. The thought came to her and she said ‘Jesus, YOU are the LIGHT of the world, praise you Lord mighty God and King’. Standing in the dark room, saying this, well didn’t the lamp come back on. Then she jumped up and down, then she had tears. She knew knew knew that God was right there with her.

She told me this story. A few days later we had a light bulb burn out and I remembered what she said. I said out loud with enthusiasm that Jesus is the King of Glory the Light of the world! And that light bulb popped back on. We knew he was right here. Right here, alive. Keeping us company.

I’ve told this story and people have come back to tell me that they had a light bulb come on, and God touched their heart. He’s alive and he cares about me. It became real. That changes everything. It’s like standing in a beam of light after bumping around in darkness. This is what I wish for you.