Clarification on Mormon Belief

[Jay53]

Hi, Kikkichan,
Thanks for your prayers. No, I don’t agree, but I guess I can see your point.

In Exodus 33:11, we learn that
11 And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.

I think it’s pretty clear that Moses was writing and teaching the Israelites that God has a body, and that He has a face.

Are you saying that the Jewish people believed that God the Father has flesh and bones? When did they stop believing this?

 

[jakasaki]

Hi, Kikkichan,
Thanks for your prayers. No, I don’t agree, but I guess I can see your point.

In Exodus 33:11, we learn that
11 And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.

I think it’s pretty clear that Moses was writing and teaching the Israelites that God has a body, and that He has a face.

But what about the rest of chapter 33:

19And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. **20But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.” **

21Then the Lord said, “There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.”

 

[Rocket_Man]

Rocket Man,
For Stephen to declare that He saw “Jesus standing on the right hand of God” was confirming what Jesus had taught about having been sent by His Father and that He would return to His Father.

And look what Luke also wrote in Luke 22 with “Jesus standing on the right hand of God”.

66 And as soon as it was day, the elders of the people and the chief priests and the scribes came together, and led him into their council, saying, 67 Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe: 68 And if I also ask you, ye will not answer me, nor let me go. 69 Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God. 70 Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am. 71 And they said, What need we any further witness? for we ourselves have heard of his own mouth.

 

[ParkerD]

Are you saying that the Jewish people believed that God the Father has flesh and bones? When did they stop believing this?

Jay,
It is quite clear in the Old Testament that the Jewish people and all the house of Israel struggled with the idea of believing in a God whom they couldn’t see, and yet were probably afraid of really “seeing.” They were reprimanded over and over and over about going after other gods–the imagined gods of the nations around them.

So what Moses believed is what everyone else struggled to believe, and stopped believing just as Moses had prophesied.

Moses believed that God had a face, and he spoke to God face to face as a friend would do. I think that was a difficult concept for the Israelites to accept.

So when Jesus said His coming fulfilled the law and the prophets and that He was I AM, then the Jewish leaders would have the same kind of struggle that their ancestors had to accept that such a thing was even possible–that God could be a Person with a Body.

 

[ParkerD]

And look what Luke also wrote in Luke 22 with “Jesus standing on the right hand of God”.

66 And as soon as it was day, the elders of the people and the chief priests and the scribes came together, and led him into their council, saying, 67 Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe: 68 And if I also ask you, ye will not answer me, nor let me go. 69 Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God. 70 Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am. 71 And they said, What need we any further witness? for we ourselves have heard of his own mouth.

Yes, I agree.

 

[ParkerD]

But what about the rest of chapter 33:

19And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. **20But,” he said, “you **cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”

21Then the Lord said, “There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.”

Jakasaki,
Yes, I am aware of those verses and they contradict the earlier verse, but they still demonstrate that God has a face, and that He has glory that cannot be seen by mortal eyes without divine intervention or a specific divinely ordained purpose.

 

[PaulDupre]

Hi!

I’m back with another pedestrian question. When I read Deuteronomy 4:28 I’m
seeing man-made idols being described. So is the point that

if false gods can “* … neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell."
then
a true god must be able to " … see, hear, eat, smell.*”,

which implies having the necessary equipment to do these things, (i.e., a body), correct?

I’m thinking that the point being made is that these false man-made
gods are so lame, they can’t even do the things that the men-that-made-them
can do. I think this is a description of the idols and not an indirect description
of what God is like.

But that’s just me talking!

-kc

±-----------------------------------------------------------------+
hareidi.org/bible/Deuteronomy4.htm#4
27 And HaShem shall scatter you among the peoples, and ye shall be left few in number among the nations, whither HaShem shall lead you away.
28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men’s hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.

Congratulations on an excellent analysis!

 

[Jay53]

Jay,
It is quite clear in the Old Testament that the Jewish people and all the house of Israel struggled with the idea of believing in a God whom they couldn’t see, and yet were probably afraid of really “seeing.” They were reprimanded over and over and over about going after other gods–the imagined gods of the nations around them.

So what Moses believed is what everyone else struggled to believe, and stopped believing just as Moses had prophesied.

Moses believed that God had a face, and he spoke to God face to face as a friend would do. I think that was a difficult concept for the Israelites to accept.

So when Jesus said His coming fulfilled the law and the prophets and that He was I AM, then the Jewish leaders would have the same kind of struggle that their ancestors had to accept that such a thing was even possible–that God could be a Person with a Body.

So did they believe it or not? Or was Moses the only one who believed it? And then no one else believed it until Joseph Smith?

I still don’t see how this means God the Father has flesh and bones. I would say that I speak to God “face to face” in Eucharistic Adoration. That doesn’t mean “flesh and bones” or a literal “face”.

 

[PaulDupre]

Zaffiroborant,
I didn’t give the whole verse because I am on a website of a religion that uses the “work of men’s hands, wood and stone,” to make images or replicas or depictions that become the objects of worship for some of its adherents, thus fulfilling this very specific prophecy by Moses through divine inspiration about the future.

Thanks Parker, for accusing Catholics of worshipping idols. Please don’t ever again deny that Mormonism makes this accusation against Catholics. We have you on file now.

 

[ParkerD]

Thanks Parker, for accusing Catholics of worshipping idols. Please don’t ever again deny that Mormonism makes this accusation against Catholics. We have you on file now.

Fine with me. I didn’t refer to all Catholics in the statement I wrote.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.

ParkerD, if your to going to depart from Luke’s understanding of the expression “right hand of God” and use the your literal translation of “Jesus standing on the right hand of God” with God having a face, legs, and hands, then you must read Acts 7:55 as Jesus actually standing on the Fathers, right hand.

Wouldn’t the Fathers said, “Son, get off my hand, it hurts?”

Do you see how your twisting Luke’s previously used and intended interpretation of the “right hand” to fit into your beliefs.

 

[twopekinguys]

Thanks Parker, for accusing Catholics of worshipping idols. Please don’t ever again deny that Mormonism makes this accusation against Catholics. We have you on file now.

Isn’t this what Diania would refer to as “telling us what WE believe”, and “You don’t get to tell US what WE believe.”?

 

[ParkerD]

So did they believe it or not? Or was Moses the only one who believed it? And then no one else believed it until Joseph Smith?

I still don’t see how this means God the Father has flesh and bones. I would say that I speak to God “face to face” in Eucharistic Adoration. That doesn’t mean “flesh and bones” or a literal “face”.

Jay,
Moses would not go against what he had been personally taught, and force the people to believe that God had a face and that Moses had talked with Him. God desires agency, and Moses would be fully aware of that concept. All the prophets would understand that concept.

I am in agreement with that concept also, that God has allowed humankind to choose to worship whatever version of belief in God that they choose for themselves.

Prophets have often restored that knowledge which was lost through unbelief of earlier peoples. Abraham did that, Moses did that, Ezekiel did that, and Christ did that, among others. Joseph Smith did that also.

 

[jakasaki]

Jay,

Prophets have often restored that knowledge which was lost through unbelief of earlier peoples. Abraham did that, Moses did that, Ezekiel did that, and Christ did that, among others. Joseph Smith did that also.

You forget mohamad of islam claimed the same thing, but he also claimed that he was the final “seal” of the prophets & that no one would come after him… I guess Joe Smith didn’t know about mohamad.

 

[ParkerD]

ParkerD, if your to going to depart from Luke’s understanding of the expression “right hand of God” and use the your literal translation of “Jesus standing on the right hand of God” with God having a face, legs, and hands, then you must read Acts 7:55 as Jesus actually standing on the Fathers, right hand.

Wouldn’t the Fathers said, “Son, get off my hand, it hurts?”

Do you see how your twisting Luke’s previously used and intended interpretation of the “right hand” to fit into your beliefs.

Rocket Man,
If I asked one of my sons to stand on my right hand while we were standing in front of a group, I think he would understand that I was asking him to stand at my right hand side, next to me–not that he should bring my hand to the floor so he could “stand on my hand.”

This is not a difficult expression to understand, except for some Protestants I have interacted with who brought up the same point you have brought up.

 

[ParkerD]

You forget mohamad of islam claimed the same thing, but he also claimed that he was the final “seal” of the prophets & that no one would come after him… I guess Joe Smith didn’t know about mohamad.

Jakasaki,
Sorry, but I don’t care much about Mohammed and haven’t studied his writings at all although I looked at some of it once. I am fully familiar with the fact that false spirits can deceive and can be believed by people who think they have seen a truthful event in their lives. That possibility is fully attested in the Bible.

This is why having the Holy Spirit ourselves, to detect truth from error and from distortion, is so absolutely essential and is absolutely promised by God.

 

[PaulDupre]

You forget mohamad of islam claimed the same thing, but he also claimed that he was the final “seal” of the prophets & that no one would come after him… I guess Joe Smith didn’t know about mohamad.

Joseph Smith knew all about Muhammad. He said:

If the people let us alone, we will preach the gospel in peace. But if they come on us to molest us, we will establish our religion with the sword. We will trample down our enemies and make it one gore of blood…from the Rocky Mountains to the Atlantic Ocean. I will be to this generation a 2nd Muhammad, whose motto in treating for peace was ‘the Al-Qur’an or the sword.’ So shall it be with us — ‘Joseph Smith or the sword!’ (History of the Church, Vol. 3, p. 167).

 

[Jay53]

Jay,
Moses would not go against what he had been personally taught, and force the people to believe that God had a face and that Moses had talked with Him. God desires agency, and Moses would be fully aware of that concept. All the prophets would understand that concept.

I am in agreement with that concept also, that God has allowed humankind to choose to worship whatever version of belief in God that they choose for themselves.

Prophets have often restored that knowledge which was lost through unbelief of earlier peoples. Abraham did that, Moses did that, Ezekiel did that, and Christ did that, among others. Joseph Smith did that also.

I appreciate your patience and insight here, but none of this clarifies this issue for me. I just don’t get it. I just don’t see where anyone before Joseph Smith and Mormons believed and taught that God the Father had flesh and bones. You’ve given me one or two lines out of scripture that you say support this belief, but they are not as clear cut as you would have me believe and I haven’t see any evidence that they were ever interpreted the way Joseph Smith interpreted them. In fact I see the opposite.

I don’t see where Moses said anything about flesh and bones and God having previously been a man like us. As I pointed out with my personal experience in speaking with God “face to face” in Eucharistic Adoration, and given the lack of any other writings or teachings regarding this concept, I’m inclined to believe that Moses’ experience was not as literal as Mormons would have people believe.

Would it be the Mormon contention then that Moses believed God was once a man, the rest of the Israelites didn’t accept this and so no one else believed this until Joseph Smith received his revelations? Are there any other prophets that taught this concept/belief?

 

[jakasaki]

Jakasaki,
Sorry, but I don’t care much about Mohammed and haven’t studied his writings at all although I looked at some of it once.

**I am fully familiar with the fact that false spirits can deceive and can be believed by people who think they have seen a truthful event in their lives. That possibility is fully attested in the Bible. **

This is why having the Holy Spirit ourselves, to detect truth from error and from distortion, is so absolutely essential and is absolutely promised by God.

The same can be said with J.Smith regarding the “false spirits can deceive and can be believed by people who think they have seen a truthful event in their lives.”

**Galatians 1:8
But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary
to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! **

The above goes for mohamad & J.Smith. Also, it is written within scripture to test the spirits, AND to test the prophets. And that satan can come disguised as an 'angel of light".

Islams mohmad authored the koran
J.Smith authored the book of mormon.
The ahmadi messiah created the ahmadi movement
The Ba’ha dude started the Ba’ha movement

And there’s more.

So apparently Galatinas 1 was ignored.

The testing of the prophets was ignored.

Satan disguised an an “angel of light” was ignored.

 

[Jay53]

The same can be said with J.Smith regarding the “false spirits can deceive and can be believed by people who think they have seen a truthful event in their lives.”

**Galatians 1:8
But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary
to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! **

The above goes for mohamad & J.Smith. Also, it is written within scripture to test the spirits, AND to test the prophets. And that satan can come disguised as an 'angel of light".

Islams mohmad authored the koran
J.Smith authored the book of mormon.
The ahmadi messiah created the ahmadi movement
The Ba’ha dude started the Ba’ha movement

And there’s more.

So apparently Galatinas 1 was ignored.

The testing of the prophets was ignored.

Satan disguised an an “angel of light” was ignored.

Pam, you make me chuckle!!