Clarification on Mormon Belief

[Jay53]

It sounds like it to me Jay, but I’ll let the person answer that.

There is a big difference of time line here. The koran/islam is 1400 years old.

This stuff that Smith said is only a few hundred years old. Very current in the time line.

But it also looks like that muslims claim that some hadiths are not real BUT they only say that regarding the hadiths that show mohamad in bad light.

Same here in Smith I guess. If it shows him in bad light, the mormons are trying to “clarify” whether Smith said something or not.

For Pam:

Where’s Bukhari when you need him?

 

[ParkerD]

One last question:

Is the belief that (1) God the Father had flesh and bones and (2) was once a man like us one of the “critical” doctrines to Mormon belief, IOW does a faithful Mormon have to believe this?

Jay,

1. I think it is expected that faithful Mormons believe the Joseph Smith account of his first vision, which included that God the Father and His Son appeared to him and that Jesus spoke to him after God the Father had called him by name and said, “Joseph, this is my beloved Son. Hear Him.” I think it is expected that faithful Mormons believe the Doctrine and Covenants verse that says (130:22) “The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.”
2. No question like that is asked in temple recommend interviews, but that concept is taught based on statements by Joseph Smith and Lorenzo Snow and others subsequently. Since it is not asked in the temple recommend interview, I would answer that it is not a doctrine one “has to believe,” but it is taught enough that it would be considered a generally accepted belief within the LDS teachings, with the caveat that it probably means that God the Father lived a perfect life as a man on an earth eons of time ago.

 

[jakasaki]

For Pam:

Where’s Bukhari when you need him?

He is dust when Joe Smith was around.

In all seriousness, reading these mormon threads & Joe Smith reminds me of what islam, the koran and mohamad did.

There is a similarity between mohamad and Smith. They both had tons of wives and some of them young.

They both brought a new “book” to the religious table

They both brought a new “religion” or “following” to the table

They both had visitation visions of “beings in light”

One had plates and the other had (?)

One was poisoned and the other was shot

They both changed the books of Judaism & Christianity to suit their needs and deceive many.

I can’t think of anything else right now…

 

[ParkerD]

" changed the books of Judaism & Christianity to suit their needs and deceive many."

" changed the books of Judaism & Christianity to suit their needs and deceive many."
That is what the Nicene council did, along with many other writers during the early centuries after the apostles were no longer around to protect the pure doctrine.

The angel who visited Joseph Smith was prophesied by John in Revelation 14:6-7, and that restoration by an angel was necessary so that the “everlasting gospel” could be “preached to them that dwell on earth.”

That restoration was necessary because of the changing of the books that had occurred. Otherwise, there would have been no need for an angel as prophesied in Revelation 14:6.

 

[Jay53]

Jay,

1. I think it is expected that faithful Mormons believe the Joseph Smith account of his first vision, which included that God the Father and His Son appeared to him and that Jesus spoke to him after God the Father had called him by name and said, “Joseph, this is my beloved Son. Hear Him.” I think it is expected that faithful Mormons believe the Doctrine and Covenants verse that says (130:22) “The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.”
2. No question like that is asked in temple recommend interviews, but that concept is taught based on statements by Joseph Smith and Lorenzo Snow and others subsequently. Since it is not asked in the temple recommend interview, I would answer that it is not a doctrine one “has to believe,” but it is taught enough that it would be considered a generally accepted belief within the LDS teachings, with the caveat that it probably means that God the Father lived a perfect life as a man on an earth eons of time ago.

OK. Thank you.

 

[Marie5890]

Jay,

1. I think it is expected that faithful Mormons believe the Joseph Smith account of his first vision, which included that God the Father and His Son appeared to him and that Jesus spoke to him after God the Father had called him by name and said, “Joseph, this is my beloved Son. Hear Him.” I think it is expected that faithful Mormons believe the Doctrine and Covenants verse that says (130:22) “The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.”
2. No question like that is asked in temple recommend interviews, but that concept is taught based on statements by Joseph Smith and Lorenzo Snow and others subsequently. Since it is not asked in the temple recommend interview, I would answer that it is not a doctrine one “has to believe,” but it is taught enough that it would be considered a generally accepted belief within the LDS teachings, with the caveat that it probably means that God the Father lived a perfect life as a man on an earth eons of time ago.

I concur. It’s not a question asked in a temple recommend interview, but is widely taught enough to be a doctrine.

For those who wonder, as a former Mormon I find ParkerD’s answers accurate and lacking in deception of what the LDS’s believe.

I would trust what he has to tell you what is LDS dogma.

 

[Stephen168]

I didn’t give the whole verse because I am on a website of ** a religion** that uses the “work of men’s hands, wood and stone,” to make images or replicas or depictions that become the objects of worship for some of its adherents, thus fulfilling this very specific prophecy by Moses through divine inspiration about the future.

Fine with me. I didn’t refer to all Catholics in the statement I wrote.

Just the Catholics that are part of that religion. It is always nice to know that the foundation of Mormonism (19th century American anti-Catholic ignorance and hate) is alive and well in Mormonism.

 

[Marie5890]

He is dust when Joe Smith was around.

In all seriousness, reading these mormon threads & Joe Smith reminds me of what islam, the koran and mohamad did.

There is a similarity between mohamad and Smith. They both had tons of wives and some of them young.

They both brought a new “book” to the religious table

They both brought a new “religion” or “following” to the table

They both had visitation visions of “beings in light”

One had plates and the other had (?)

One was poisoned and the other was shot

They both changed the books of Judaism & Christianity to suit their needs and deceive many.

I can’t think of anything else right now…

I agree.

Mormonism was a new form of Christianity.

Very very non-traditional.

 

[Marie5890]

I’m not sure how old ParkerD is, so I will give him the benefit of the doubt.

In the Book of Mormon it was widely taught that the “whore of Babylon” was considered the Catholic church in the early LDS Church.

Knowing Mormonism I would expect that they have softened on that view…

The LDS church has changed a great deal from the time of JSmith and BYoung. To say otherwise is very misleading.

Gordon B Hinckley did a great deal to mainstream Mormonism into the general Christian culture.

 

[Jay53]

" changed the books of Judaism & Christianity to suit their needs and deceive many."
That is what the Nicene council did, along with many other writers during the early centuries after the apostles were no longer around to protect the pure doctrine.

The angel who visited Joseph Smith was prophesied by John in Revelation 14:6-7, and that restoration by an angel was necessary so that the “everlasting gospel” could be “preached to them that dwell on earth.”

That restoration was necessary because of the changing of the books that had occurred. Otherwise, there would have been no need for an angel as prophesied in Revelation 14:6.

Do Mormons believe that everything in Revelations has already come to pass - or just regarding this verse?

 

[Marie5890]

Do Mormons believe that everything in Revelations has already come to pass - or just regarding this verse?

I can’t answer that…I honestly dont know…

What I remember is that Mormons were kind of fuzzy about the Book of Revelation.

I dont know what the prevailing dogma is…

Sorry I cant help here…

 

[ParkerD]

Do Mormons believe that everything in Revelations has already come to pass - or just regarding this verse?

Jay,
Much of the events prophesied in the Book of Revelation have happened by now, but some have yet to happen. Most of Revelation 16 has yet to happen, and certainly Revelation 20:1-10 has yet to happen. Those events described in Revelation 20 will happen during the Millenium and at the end of the Millenium.

Joseph Smith is quoted as having said the Book of Revelation is among the plainest books God inspired to be written.

 

[TheosisM]

TheosisM,
Hi, and I hope you are well,
If by “essence” you mean glory, then Stephen certainly did see that there is a divine glory and that both the Father and the Son had that divine glory. The word “essence” is not used in the King James Bible at all. Is it used in the DR Bible?

ParkerD,

I’m not sure what this has to do with my question: how does “three Persons in one Being” not match what Stephen testified of having seen? I believe you made this claim, so I’m simply asking what you meant by it.

Whether or not the word “essence” is in the Bible (whether we’re talking about the incomplete KJV or others) is irrelevant, because Christianity uses many words that are not found in the Bible to explain various concepts or ideas that are found in the Bible (and of course, Catholics are not sola scriptura-ites, and even they use words not found in whichever Bible version they use).

 

[spockrates]

Hey, Parker:

I find Mormonism fascinating and have a relative who is a member of the LDS Church. How can I learn that what you believe is true?

 

[ParkerD]

Hey, Parker:

I find Mormonism fascinating and have a relative who is a member of the LDS Church. How can I learn that what you believe is true?

Hi, Spockrates,
Thanks for expressing that it is fascinating. I think it is that and more.

I think one who honestly has that question about true religion from God, would want to study the New Testament and figure out how the people who became members of the original church did that–the process they went through.

They listened to someone speaking to them and teaching them, usually. They didn’t just read a pamphlet or a written source and become convinced. They listened to the testimony of those who were teaching truth, and the truth rang true to their soul so they repented of sins and were baptized and became converted.

I don’t think one can do that through the internet or through television. I think it requires personal interaction, which would be why there are such a thing as missionaries who do that.

There are a number of people who have read the Book of Mormon and felt its truthfulness and have made contact to be taught and baptized, but that is not the normal process and would require a person who is so humble in their heart that they can feel the truth through the written word rather than the spoken word. When that happens, it is a fulfillment of Isaiah 29:18-19.

Whatever you do, I enjoyed your comment and I wish you all the best.

 

[PaulDupre]

They listened to someone speaking to them and teaching them, usually. They didn’t just read a pamphlet or a written source and become convinced. They listened to the testimony of those who were teaching truth, and the truth rang true to their soul so they repented of sins and were baptized and became converted.

We Catholics call it RCIA.

 

[Marie5890]

Hey, Parker:

I find Mormonism fascinating and have a relative who is a member of the LDS Church. How can I learn that what you believe is true?

Don’t be afraid to do extensive research into the history of all.

RESEARCH RESEARCH RESEARCH!!!

God had zero fear of the truth…

 

[ParkerD]

Don’t be afraid to do extensive research into the history of all.

RESEARCH RESEARCH RESEARCH!!!

God had zero fear of the truth…

Indeed–Christ performed the greatest act of research the world has ever known. He had the same writings the scribes and Pharisees had, yet He also had the greatest teacher available, and sought the knowledge from heaven that was not available through the traditions of the Jews. He spoke against tradition as a source of truth, and rightly so–since tradition set the Jewish leaders against Him and against what He taught. He taught, “And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

He also taught as recorded in John 8, “He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.”
That kind of “hearing” is done by the soul and the heart. The Pharisees used their minds alone, and generally rejected the Savior because He was not what their minds were expecting. There is a tremendous lesson to be learned from that.

 

[TheosisM]

ParkerD,

I’m not sure what this has to do with my question: how does “three Persons in one Being” not match what Stephen testified of having seen? I believe you made this claim, so I’m simply asking what you meant by it.

bump

 

[ParkerD]

bump

TheosisM,
I had tried to answer your question after you asked that, if I remember correctly. But I still don’t understand the question, so I don’t suppose any attempt to answer it will do. I don’t see anything in the account about Stephen that would lead to the conclusion of there having been “One Being” in what he saw and what he felt as he was “full of the Holy Ghost”.