Clarification on Mormon Belief

[spockrates]

I strongly suggest looking at some of the verses cited by many Mormons as evidence of the Great Apostasy, and prayerfully consider them. This will help you in this endeavor. In my personal journey (and I have been interested in Mormonism for a number of years, and really considered converting earlier this year), I have been led to believe that God’s Church has always been on this earth, that the authority to act in His name has always been here, and that the sacraments, real ways that we participate in the life of Jesus Christ, have always been available for the faithful.

Thank you for the advise, TM! I will be glad to discuss these verses with Mormons, and with yourself.

 

[spockrates]

Yes, you are correct. There are multiple interpretations of this verse (I know that you are aware of the thread on this very subject), and for me, the context provided by other verses (such as those I gave) shows that the Church as an institution, the Body of Christ, with authority from God, would never fall away, though individuals always will.

Well, I’m interested in knowing the correct interpretation, if possible. Perhaps your interpretation is the correct one, and I’d very much like to explore your reasons for why you believe. But first I’d like to ask if you are aware that the passage you cited, when translated into Greek, uses the word Hades instead of the word Hell? Thus, it reads:

“And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.”

 

[TheosisM]

Are you aware that the passage you cited, when translated into Greek, uses the word Hades instead of the word Hell? Thus, it reads:

“And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.”

Yes I am, I am actually very familiar with the issue of Hell=Hades translation in the Bible (this issue is not just in Matt 16:18) (as well as in the Apostles’ Creed). The NIV, NASB, and ASV say “Hades”. I believe the Catechism also addresses this in the context of the Apostles’ Creed.

I believe the aforementioned thread covers that topic in detail.

 

[spockrates]

Yes I am, I am actually very familiar with the issue of Hell=Hades translation in the Bible (this issue is not just in Matt 16:18) (as well as in the Apostles’ Creed). The NIV, NASB, and ASV say “Hades”. I believe the Catechism also addresses this in the context of the Apostles’ Creed.

I believe the aforementioned thread covers that topic in detail.

Well, I’m interested in hearing what you have to say, rather than reading some other discussion thread. It’s in the process of getting answers to my questions that I receive the nourishing wisdom from others. Asking questions is really all I’m good at, for I rarely have any worthwhile wisdom to give myself. I’m somewhat of a beggar asking for bread that way. So, I hope you won’t be too offended at my asking you to give a handout to me.

 

[spockrates]

What about you, Marie? Care to give this little street urchin a few crumbs of truth?

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[Marie5890]

Well, I’m interested in hearing what you have to say, rather than reading some other discussion thread. It’s in the process of getting answers to my questions that I receive the most wisdom from others. Asking questions is really all I’m good at, for I rarely have any worthwhile wisdom to give myself. I’m somewhat of a beggar asking for handouts that way. So, I hope you won’t be too offended at my asking you to give to me.

Because of the nature of interpretation there is also wisdom in seeking on our own.

I would suggest you do the prayerful research and then ask the questions that research has inspired.

 

[Marie5890]

What about you, Marie? Care to give this little street urchin a few crumbs of truth?

I do believe in the value of prayerful research.

I think you are wanting for someone here, some human being, to tell you what the truth is.
We dont possess that kind of power.
Best we can do is give you guides of where to go and let you do the research.

Human beings can be unintentionally misleading at best…Deceitful at worst.
Its why trusting God and His Spirit is the wiser course of action, IMO.

You certainly have been given a great amount of information. It’s time for you to act on that and see where it leads you.

Good Luck in your personal journey !!

 

[TheosisM]

Well, I’m interested in hearing what you have to say, rather than reading some other discussion thread. It’s in the process of getting answers to my questions that I receive the most wisdom from others. Asking questions is really all I’m good at, for I rarely have any worthwhile wisdom to give myself. I’m somewhat of a beggar asking for handouts that way. So, I hope you won’t be too offended at my asking you to give to me.

I do not believe that the translation of Hades/Hell/netherworld affects the interpretation that the Church will always exist and nothing can cause it to fall away (which is how I take it), especially since the translation I use, the NAB, does not use “hell” in that verse. And taken in the context of other verses, my interpretation leads me to believe that a Great Apostasy of the Church was never prophesied.

I believe ParkerD and Zerinus (and others) have also touched on this: it is great that you are asking many questions, however you need to come to the truth yourself, and God will reveal it to you. Read the Bible, read history, read the ante-nicene fathers, all prayerfully. Don’t just believe what we are saying, but find out for yourself.

I think I asked you this earlier: what is your opinion on the Eucharist, and are you a confirmed Catholic? The latter will help me in asking you questions and how I frame my responses.

 

[catholic-rcia]

As has been cited here there are many scriptures that speak about the strength of Christ’s Church. the Scripture below is about His Church established. But think about this. If you were 5 years old and these same scriptures were taught to you by those you love and rely on, an LDS family, knowing nothing about the Catholic Church, how hard would it be to come to see that Christ was speaking about the Catholic Church? Here is how they are taught at a very early age. Not having a clue…

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=637e1b08f338c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=0e158c8fd6c20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&hideNav=1&contentLocale=0

24 ¶ Therefore whosoever aheareth these sayings of mine, and bdoeth them, c*(“Scriptures”) will liken him unto a dwise man, which ebuilt his house upon fa rock:
25 And the arain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and bbeat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a crock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a afoolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that ahouse; and it bfell: and great was the fall of it.

 

[ParkerD]

Hi, readers,
If you didn’t go to the link posted in the prior post, here are a couple of main points:

"• Why should we build our houses, or, in other words, our lives, on the rock of Jesus Christ and his gospel? (Helaman 5:12.)

Help the children understand that Jesus and his teachings are our only sure foundation. If we build our lives on anything else, it would be like building a house upon sand.

• What do some people build their lives on that might be compared to sand?

Discuss such things as money, fame, popularity, sports, physical beauty, and so on. Explain that these are all sandy foundations to have as main goals in life."

This is a very central issue with respect to the word “rock” and Jesus Christ being the “chief corner stone”–the stone the builders rejected. It all ties together. I am completely sure that Peter does not want people to think of him when they think of building their house founded “upon a rock.” Of course he wants people to think of Christ!

 

[zerinus]

Fascinating! I don’t believe I’ve ever had an experience I cannot describe. I’d like to know more about this unknowable thing that I cannot possibly know until I know it. Are you saying that the truth (at least the truth I seek, which is whether the Book of Mormon is true) cannot possibly be known, but can only be experienced?

Well, I can give you an example from the scriptures, if that is any help. Have a careful read through these verses:

Matthew 16:

13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Cæsarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

What Peter had experienced was a personal revelation, a spiritual testimony, of who Jesus was. But evidently himself was not aware of it! Jesus had to tell him! He had had a spiritual experience; but he himself would not have been able to explain or describe to you how that came about. In fact he didn’t even know that he had had such an experience. That is why Jesus had to tell him. But there is no denying that he had received a spiritual witness, because Jesus had confirmed to him that that is what he had received. That is what the witness of the Holy Spirit is like. It is something that you experience, but cannot describe, not even to yourself.

Suppose you had asked Peter, “How did you receive that testimony that Jesus was the Christ?” Would he have been able to tell you? If he didn’t know it himself, how could he have described it to you? But according to the word of the Lord, that is what he had experienced. That is what the testimony of the Holy Ghost is like, whether it is of Jesus, or of the Book of Mormon, or anything else.

Jesus says of the Holy Spirit: “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: …” (John 16:13). So how do you think the Holy Spirit does that? How does He “guide us into all truth”? Do you think He comes and stands in front of you like schoolteacher with a chalk in hand, and teaches you truth? I suppose He could if He wanted to! But that is not the experience of the vast majority of mankind of how the Holy Spirit teaches them. He teaches them in the same way that He taught Peter—in a way that is hardly discernible or describable, but nevertheless very real.

 

[Marie5890]

Since it often times comes down as to how scriptures are interpreted by any given church that personal and prayerful research and consideration is of great necessity.

Sometimes I get the feeling that what is going on here is going round and round about “how who interprets what” ad nuaseum

In the end it’s the Holy Spirit who ultimately teaches and brings about conversion.

Not we imperfect human beings.
And that is how it should be. Human beings can mislead will a benign and no ill intent or they can certainly seek to dupe and malicious set out to be deceptive.

There is an element of spiritual journeys being something of a solitary endeavor with the Holy Spirit.

 

[spockrates]

I do believe in the value of prayerful research.

I think you are wanting for someone here, some human being, to tell you what the truth is.
We dont possess that kind of power.
Best we can do is give you guides of where to go and let you do the research.

Human beings can be unintentionally misleading at best…Deceitful at worst.
Its why trusting God and His Spirit is the wiser course of action, IMO.

You certainly have been given a great amount of information. It’s time for you to act on that and see where it leads you.

Good Luck in your personal journey !!

Do you believe a picture is worth a thousand words, Marie?

 

[Marie5890]

Do you believe a picture is worth a thousand words, Marie?

Depends on the picture.
In today’s day an age, pictures can be deceptive.
Or they can be revealing.
Or they can be benign.

They can be taken out of context. They can be manipulate and used for propaganda etc etc…

Is there any reason you arent replying to TM’s questions?

 

[spockrates]

I do not believe that the translation of Hades/Hell/netherworld affects the interpretation that the Church will always exist and nothing can cause it to fall away (which is how I take it), especially since the translation I use, the NAB, does not use “hell” in that verse. And taken in the context of other verses, my interpretation leads me to believe that a Great Apostasy of the Church was never prophesied. …

“And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.”

(Matthew 16:18, New American Bible)

Yes, I think you are seeing Jesus’ words the same way that someone like Socrates might see them. When a Greek like Socrates heard the words, “the gates of Hades” or “the gates of the netherworld” what would come to mind is the place beneath the earth’s surface where the disembodied souls of the dead lived. Once a soul passed through these gates, religious Greek pagans believed, there was no coming back. That’s why the stories of Greek heroes like Hercules making it back alive after passing through the gates to the netherworld were so inspiring. Hercules, they would say, cheated death.

So when Jesus mentioned the gates of Hades, or the gates of the netherworld, or even the gates of Ghana (for Ghana was the word Jesus used for Hell) I suppose death would come to mind to His audience. And what you say makes sense, TM. One way the Church might escape death, or even cheat death as Hercules was said to have done, would be to never cease to exist.



But perhaps there is also another way to consider (and I want to consider all possibilities so that I can be sure which of them is the truth). Please tell me, TM, did the gates of the netherworld ever prevail against Jesus Christ?

 

[spockrates]

Depends on the picture.
In today’s day an age, pictures can be deceptive.
Or they can be revealing.
Or they can be benign.

They can be taken out of context. They can be manipulate and used for propaganda etc etc…

Or they can be misunderstood?

Or do you think that the true meaning of every work of art or photograph is immediately understood by whoever sees it?

 

[spockrates]

… Is there any reason you arent replying to TM’s questions?

I am replying to her questions, Marie, but she asks so many! I can only answer one at a time.



If there is a question she believes to be more important than the others, I hope she will let me know. I will then answer that question, first.

What question do you think is the most important for me to answer?

 

[spockrates]

Hi, readers,
If you didn’t go to the link posted in the prior post, here are a couple of main points:

"• Why should we build our houses, or, in other words, our lives, on the rock of Jesus Christ and his gospel? (Helaman 5:12.)

Help the children understand that Jesus and his teachings are our only sure foundation. If we build our lives on anything else, it would be like building a house upon sand.

• What do some people build their lives on that might be compared to sand?

Discuss such things as money, fame, popularity, sports, physical beauty, and so on. Explain that these are all sandy foundations to have as main goals in life."

This is a very central issue with respect to the word “rock” and Jesus Christ being the “chief corner stone”–the stone the builders rejected. It all ties together. I am completely sure that Peter does not want people to think of him when they think of building their house founded “upon a rock.” Of course he wants people to think of Christ!

Hi Parker!



Are you saying that Jesus words are solid and reliable and those on which I can count to make the truth clear to me?

 

[spockrates]

Well, I can give you an example from the scriptures, if that is any help. Have a careful read through these verses:

Matthew 16:

13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Cæsarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

What Peter had experienced was a personal revelation, a spiritual testimony, of who Jesus was. But evidently himself was not aware of it! Jesus had to tell him! He had had a spiritual experience; but he himself would not have been able to explain or describe to you how that came about. In fact he didn’t even know that he had had such an experience. That is why Jesus had to tell him. But there is no denying that he had received a spiritual witness, because Jesus had confirmed to him that that is what he had received. That is what the witness of the Holy Spirit is like. It is something that you experience, but cannot describe, not even to yourself.

Suppose you had asked Peter, “How did you receive that testimony that Jesus was the Christ?” Would he have been able to tell you? If he didn’t know it himself, how could he have described it to you? But according to the word of the Lord, that is what he had experienced. That is what the testimony of the Holy Ghost is like, whether it is of Jesus, or of the Book of Mormon, or anything else.

Jesus says of the Holy Spirit: “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: …” (John 16:13). So how do you think the Holy Spirit does that? How does He “guide us into all truth”? Do you think He comes and stands in front of you like schoolteacher with a chalk in hand, and teaches you truth? I suppose He could if He wanted to! But that is not the experience of the vast majority of mankind of how the Holy Spirit teaches them. He teaches them in the same way that He taught Peter—in a way that is hardly discernible or describable, but nevertheless very real.

You give me much to think about, Zerinus. Thank you for that! But I want to be sure I’m understanding you correctly. You are saying that Peter had no rational reason to know the truth that Jesus was the Messiah. And, indeed, he does not say whether or not there was a rational reason in Matthew 16. But he does say this in one of his letters (and I believe it is applicable to the truth I am trying to discern with your help):

16For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

17For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

18And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

(2 Peter 1)

Please notice two things that Peter writes that I find fascinating!

1. God spoke to them in an audible voice.
2. The words of the prophets of the Old Testament are more sure proof of the truth than even God’s audible voice.

Do you agree with what Peter is saying? Or do you think I am misunderstanding him? Please let me know, for I value your opinion and want to understand what you understand.

 

[zerinus]

You give me much to think about, Zerinus. Thank you for that! But I want to be sure I’m understanding you correctly. You are saying that Peter had no rational reason to know the truth that Jesus was the Messiah.

I am saying nothing more or less than what is implied in those passages of scripture, as I had described earlier.

And, indeed, he does not say whether or not there was a rational reason in Matthew 16. But he does say this in one of his letters (and I believe it is applicable to the truth I am trying to discern with your help):

16For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

17For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

18And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

(2 Peter 1)

That refers to the experience that Peter had with James and John and Jesus in the Mount of Transfiguration. That was a miraculous event that they had experienced. That is a different situation from what I was describing. Miracles of that kind also happen; but so does the personal witness of the Spirit that Peter received as he was traveling on the boat with Jesus. One kind of experience does not deny or refute the other kind of experience. The event at the Mount of Transfiguration was only shared with Peter, James, and John, who were Jesus’ closest companions. The rest of the Apostles did not share in that experience. So what were they to do? Couldn’t they have known that Jesus is the Christ without that kind of that experience? What about the rest of Christian saints? Should they all receive a Mount of Transfiguration experience in order to know that Jesus is the Christ? The truth is that those experiences are rare events which are not given to everyone; but we all can know that Jesus is the Christ in the same sure way that Peter had found while conversing with Jesus in the fishing boat. In fact, chances are that Peter would not have been found worthy to share in the Mount of Transfiguration experience if he had not received and acknowledged the witness of the Holy Spirit that he first received in the boat with Jesus. Allow me to quote you something from the Book of Mormon:

Ether 12:

6 And now, I, Moroni, would speak somewhat concerning these things; I would show unto the world that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith.

Those great miraculous experiences occur after we have demonstrated our faith in smaller ways, such as Peter did when He testified of Jesus in the fishing boat. As our faith increases, then we are able to receive greater witness, such as those that Peter and John had experienced at the Mount of Transfiguration.

Please notice two things that Peter writes that I find fascinating!

1. God spoke to them in an audible voice.

1. The words of the prophets of the Old Testament are more sure proof of the truth than even God’s audible voice.

Do you agree with what Peter is saying? Or do you think I am misunderstanding him? Please let me know, for I value your opinion and want to understand what you understand.

Yes, I agree with you, and with what Peter is saying. But that begs the question: how do you know that the “word of prophecy” is true? How do you know that it is reliable? How can you believe it in the first place? How can you trust it? There are, and have been millions of people throughout the history of Christianity who have not believed any of that. They think that prophecy is baloney and the Bible is a fairy tale! So how do you know that they are not right? How can you trust the Bible in the first place? Because Peter said so? How do you know that Peter is right? How do you know the religion you believe in is true at all? That takes us back to Peter in the boat! That is how you can know. That is how religious truth can be known and discovered in the first place. That is the role of the Holy Ghost to reveal to you the truth as you come across it and discover it and learn it. The miraculous events come much later after the “trial of your fait” has taken place. But to begin with, you have to walk by faith, and learn to rely on the Spirit of the Lord. So it looks like we have come full circle, to Peter in the boat! We took a long detour; and we ended up at the same spot that we were before.