Jerusha:
Perhaps you are right. I don’t know for certain, though. To me, it’s about as clear as mud.
Yes, Catholics tell me the same–that is, that answers to all the ambiguities I find in Jesus’ words are available to me. The only difference between their advice and yours is that they tell me the Catholic Church (rather than the LDS Church) has the answers. I suppose what I need is a reliable way to know which authority I should trust.
Yes, but I think a Jewish person has to really be reaching to say that these words describe the Jewish nation rather than the Jewish messiah:
Ain’t that the truth!Have no fears about me. I find discussing the gospel a good way of spending one’s time. I think it is better entertainment than watching television!
Thank you; I’m glad you appreciate my predicament. I only wish I had the confidence you have in the truth. What bothers me is that most Evangelicals, and many Catholics, tell me that they are relying on the Holy Ghost (or Holy Spirit, as they call Him) to guide them into all truth. And they (like you) tell me they are not deceived. But as you agreed, someone must be deceived, for all three cannot possibly be believing the truth! What I fear is what Socrates feared:
And I believe that I showed that the Catholic position is actually very similar if not the same as the Orthodox position (citing the work of an Ecumenical Patriarchate/OCA priest, who also cited an outstanding, well documented with patristic citation, Orthodox text on the very subject-]The Primacy of Peter) and the historic/early Christian position.
What you say (and perhaps the Holy Ghost?) reminds me of these words of Christ:I suppose that is one way of putting it.
Maybe, but it is the most important thing for me, as it is what changed my mind. If you can appreciate that, then perhaps you might appreciate that it was reason that caused me to see the truth about Evangelicalism. Yes, the Holy Ghost deserves much credit for powerfully working in my life to bring me to this revelation, but the means He used that worked best on me was to get me to think it through rationally. That’s one reason why I say I’ve experienced first hand these words of Isaiah:
) and the historic/early Christian position.
This goes back to what many of us on this thread have said: you need to read the Bible, history, and pray to God sincerely. I personally think that Thomas Monson (the current president of the LDS church) and the authorities of the LDS church fully believe that they are what they claim to be. Likewise, I tend to think the same about the leaders of most other churches and religions. They are witnesses for God in various senses, and they and their churches do much good in the world, reflective of their faith in God. Non-Catholics can be better witnesses for God than many Catholics at times. So, for me, the question really isn’t who is a better witness for God, but who is the authorized leader of the Church of Christ, and by extension, which church is that Church. For me, that is currently Pope Benedict XVI. For Mormons, that is President Thomas Monson. For Orthodox, that is Patriarch Bartholomew I. etc. For you, this goes back to issues of Great Apostasy, Restoration, etc. For me, I don’t believe that such events occurred, therefore I don’t consider them or the leaders of various groups that proclaim such events as having authority.
Yes, I understand. But please let me ask you this: If a Mormon tells me the Holy Spirit convinces her that the Catholic Church is NOT God’s Church; and if the Mormon tells me she came to this conclusion after reading the Bible, considering history, and sincerly praying to God; then do you think she is deceived, or do you think the Holy Spirit really did reveal this to her?
I think the best solution to that is to leave it on the back burner for a while, and focus on the more important issues which are also more clear-cut. It is not the most important theological problem that one needs to deal with. When the other issues are resolved, you may find that this one automatically gets resolved too.Perhaps you are right. I don’t know for certain, though. To me, it’s about as clear as mud.
I suppose that is a question that you have to resolve for yourself. I can’t tell you which side to believe. People find their answers to that question in different ways. I can tell you how one person resolved that question for himself, and that was Joseph Smith! He was somebody who was with faced exactly the same question that you are facing, and he found a unique way of resolving it. He tells his story in these words. That is one way of resolving it! I don’t know if there are any others that are equally reliable. Perhaps a different method would work better for you, I wouldn’t know.
I agree; but if somebody is a skeptic, or has a disposition to disbelieve, he will always be able to find an excuse for not believing.
If the Holy Spirit told someone that the Catholic Church is not God’s Church, then I think it’s safe to say that any Catholic would believe that the person was deceived. Likewise, I don’t think that a Mormon would say that the Holy Spirit would tell someone that the LDS Church is not God’s Church. God’s Church is always God’s Church. It doesn’t vary depending on the person. On the other hand, perhaps God will lead someone to another place on their journey to His Church, or that, because of some personal circumstances, the person may be led to another church for some reason. But no, I do not believe that the Holy Spirit would ever reveal to someone that the Catholic Church is not God’s Church. Others of course would say that I could be deceived in that same way.
I think you are mistaking or confusing the nature of the promise made regarding the Holy Ghost. The promise is that if you ask in faith, the Holy Ghost will reveal the truth to you, not to somebody else. If other people report conflicting answers to the same questions, what difference should that make to you? They could be deceived; they could be telling lies; what do you care? That would be like somebody telling you that if you read a certain book, there is a hidden map in there in some water watermark or something that if understood, it will point you to a buried treasure. And then you talk to three different people who have read that book, and each of them tell you a different location for the buried treasure; and then you say, “What shall I do? Whom of these shall I believe?” The answer is that you believe none of them! You were told to read the book, not ask other people who have read it! The promise of the Holy Ghost is like that. Maybe your real problem is that you do not have sufficient faith in the promises of the Lord. You can’t take the Lord’s words at face value that when He says He will reveal the truth of something to you, that He is really able to fulfill His promises. If that is not the case, why should you worry about what other people say?
I entirely agree. I have no problem with that at all. But make sure you don’t use that as an excuse to rely on reason alone, and avoid making the effort required to ask the Lord in faith, or putting your trust in God.
I think what you are revealing here is an inability to exercise faith in God and in His promises. What makes it so hard for you to believe that when God has made a promise to you, that He is also able to fulfill it in an unmistakable way?
Oh Zerinus!
I’ve had two mystical experiences in my life. One took place about 20 years ago. I was going to a state university and at at the end of a long run away from God. I practiced many sins in those days and thought nothing of them. I had a Bible, but never read it. It just sat collecting dust on a shelf in my dorm room.
My apologies. I had made two errors in that post. Firstly I thought I was replying to Spoc! Secondly I had obviously misunderstood the nature of your post (having thought that it came from him).Oh Zerinus!
You are projecting things onto my post that were not going thru my mind. (Very common human failing)
My questions were more rhetorical of nature in the sense that they are likely similar to what Spockrates is struggling with. I’ve been where he is at. I know that struggle for I have been in that very spot.
That are not reflective of where I am at in my spiritual journey.
Careful with those projections and in thinking in strictly a black and white way! (Nuances are all thru life and history)…They can mislead people to the wrong conclusions…
I have walked the path that Spockrates is on. Have you ?
I must be getting tired. Maybe I should be going to bed. OK.
I think I understand. Thanks for the link about Joseph Smith. I suppose I’m not important enough to have such an experience as he! However, I find it interesting that we both saw the same truth in the words of James.
Yes, I agree. It seems to me that there is a difference between a skeptic who thinks he already knows the truth and a philosopher who knows that he does not. The latter is more likely to find a pearl of wisdom under a mud covered stone by the shore. The former is not likely to bother to bend over and pick up the stone at all.