Clarification on Mormon Belief

[Marie5890]

I’ve had two mystical experiences in my life. One took place about 20 years ago. I was going to a state university and at at the end of a long run away from God. I practiced many sins in those days and thought nothing of them. I had a Bible, but never read it. It just sat collecting dust on a shelf in my dorm room.

Well, I was in the midst of practicing this frequent sin of mine (quite common among those I hung around with there), completely unashamed and thinking nothing off it, when I heard this voice. I heard it not with my ears, but with my head, and the voice said, “This is wrong.” In a moment I thought it was God, and prayed (as I had not prayed for years), “God, I don’t know if I can just give up doing what I enjoy!” But I did, and strangely enough I have not had the desire to go back to it again.

So, looking back at it, I wondered if I was crazy or something. But it has been more than two decades, and haven’t heard words in my mind that I was not thinking since that one time. I suppose if I was insane, I’d be hearing voices more frequently than that.

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Second mystical experience happened about 10 years ago. I was reading through the Bible as I had the habit of doing–starting at Genesis and reading through to Revelation–when I read this:

Therefore this is what the LORD says: "If you repent, I will restore you that you may serve me; if you utter worthy, not worthless, words, you will be my spokesman. Let this people turn to you, but you must not turn to them.

(Jeremiah 15:19)

Upon reading this, I had an overwhelming conviction that God was telling me these instructions to Jeremiah were His instructions to me, too. No words this time. Just an overwhelming feeling that this was true. Not sure how it is true. I do spend much time asking people what they believe and why they believe it, but I’ve never felt wise enough to speak for God in any capacity.

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A common, non-mystical experience: This occurs, I gather, because I often pray for wisdom, which is my daily habit. Strangely enough, I pray that God will keep the same promise Joseph Smith trusted (did not know this until this discussion thread):

If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.

(James 1:5)

I often read something in the Bible or elsewhere that leads me closer to the truth I’m seeking (perhaps a verse from the Bible) and think I might understand its truth, but not be sure. So I’ll ask God to show me the truth. Later in the day I might talk to someone at home or at work and be reminded of the same answer to my prayer (perhaps the same verse in the Bible). Someone might, for example, bring up that she heard at Mass the priest teaching about the meaning of a verse (and, without me telling her, she will be talking about the same verse I prayed about earlier in the day)! Then, in the evening, someone at a discussion thread such as this one might bring up a different verse that confirms the same truth as the verse I prayed about that morning. These, by themselves, are perhaps just coincidences. But, taken together, they appear to be the finger of God.



Please tell me your thoughts on God, 'cause I’d really like to know other ways to see Him.

Thank you for sharing…

Ive had one mystical experience many many years ago. A profound answer to very focused prayer of desire that I needed a very clear answer to without any human involvement.

It was such an answer that I think it kept me from being an atheist. It’s the one experience that I cant deny came from God, and no human, not even me.

I too have experienced the type of other experiences you have mentioned. When you have been trying to understand something or meditating on something, trying to unravel it, and then somehow, someway, someone will make a comment (or say something in a homily) that will be like a “light going off” experience. Like you said, not so much truly mystical, but an experience that addresses something that had been troubling me, or been one of my doubts.

With that in mind I can understand why you ask so many questions of people. I do, expect however, that when you do find an answer to some question you have its not because you have asked someone, but rather comes in an unexpected moment.

That has been what my spiritual journey has been like in the past 5 or so years.
I think it is a valid path to be on too, as long as we stay open and make sure we are directing more questions at God than not, then let Him pick whom He will to deliver His answer.

Prayers. !

 

[Marie5890]

My apologies. I had made two errors in that post. Firstly I thought I was replying to Spoc! Secondly I had obviously misunderstood the nature of your post (having thought that it came from him). I must be getting tired. Maybe I should be going to bed.

No sweat Zerinus!!

I can get confused too when I am tired. We all can. Make sure you get some good solid rest. We all make better servants of Christ when we are well rested in body, mind, and spirit. !!

 

[spockrates]

I think you are mistaking or confusing the nature of the promise made regarding the Holy Ghost. The promise is that if you ask in faith, the Holy Ghost will reveal the truth to you, not to somebody else. If other people report conflicting answers to the same questions, what difference should that make to you? They could be deceived; they could be telling lies; what do you care? That would be like somebody telling you that if you read a certain book, there is a hidden map in there in some water watermark or something that if understood, it will point you to a buried treasure. And then you talk to three different people who have read that book, and each of them tell you a different location for the buried treasure; and then you say, “What shall I do? Whom of these shall I believe?” The answer is that you believe none of them! You were told to read the book, not ask other people who have read it! The promise of the Holy Ghost is like that. Maybe your real problem is that you do not have sufficient faith in the promises of the Lord. You can’t take the Lord’s words at face value that when He says He will reveal the truth of something to you, that He is really able to fulfill His promises. If that is not the case, why should you worry about what other people say?

I suppose that is because I’m wisdomly challenged? I’m kind of a special needs kid. I know I don’t know, but wish I knew like the normal people do. I pray daily for wisdom, but the only wisdom I’ve found is that I cannot be sure I know what Jesus is really trying to tell me in the Bible. My thought is that someone who has found wisdom will show me how to get it, and maybe then I’ll get it too.

But I want to be sure I’m following the right advice and getting help from the right people. I want to follow the enlightened not the deceived. If I hear why you believe you are not deceived, maybe that will sound reasonable to me, too. I’ll then feel better about following you, as you follow God (or, rather, following your example).

 

[spockrates]

I entirely agree. I have no problem with that at all. But make sure you don’t use that as an excuse to rely on reason alone, and avoid making the effort required to ask the Lord in faith, or putting your trust in God.

Good advice, that!

 

[zerinus]

I think I understand. Thanks for the link about Joseph Smith. I suppose I’m not important enough to have such an experience as he! However, I find it interesting that we both saw the same truth in the words of James.

You may not receive the same experience as him; but it does not mean that your experience cannot be as certain and convincing to you as his was to him.

 

[spockrates]

You may not receive the same experience as him; but it does not mean that your experience cannot be as certain and convincing to you as his was to him.

Thanks for the words of encouragement. I’m not much in tune with my feelings. Often I tend to distrust intuition and the like. I’m more of a Spock than a Kirk (if you’ve ever watched reruns of the old Star Trek TV show, you might know what I mean).

 

[zerinus]

I suppose that is because I’m wisdomly challenged? I’m kind of a special needs kid. I know I don’t know, but wish I knew like the normal people do. I pray daily for wisdom, but the only wisdom I’ve found is that I cannot be sure I know what Jesus is really trying to tell me in the Bible. My thought is that someone who has found wisdom will show me how to get it, and maybe then I’ll get it too.

But I want to be sure I’m following the right advice and getting help from the right people. I want to follow the enlightened not the deceived. If I hear why you believe you are not deceived, maybe that will sound reasonable to me, too. I’ll then feel better about following you, as you follow God (or, rather, following your example).

Well I can tell you how I came to know. It was through reading the Book of Mormon. Before that time I had tried reading the Bible; but never found it convincing enough to want to continue. But when I read the Book of Mormon, it not only convinced me that it is true; but it convinced me that the Bible is true! And since them I have not been able to put either of them down.

 

[zerinus]

Thanks for the words of encouragement. I’m not much in tune with my feelings. Often I tend to distrust intuition and the like. I’m more of a Spock than a Kirk (if you’ve ever watched reruns of the old Star Trek TV show, you might know what I mean).

Why do you think that God can only communicate with you through your feelings?

 

[Marie5890]

I’m not much in tune with my feelings. Often I tend to distrust intuition and the like.

I would suggest that you make that part of your prayers when you go before God and explain your difficulties. (Of course He knows, but my experience is lay it all out on the table, the good, the bad, the ugly, the warts, the doubts and fears etc.)

The try and leave it there in faith, knowing He hears you, and will answer you accordingly.

(and I would ditch my idea about meeting with Mormon missionaries for now. Their approach most likely will not help with your kind of temperament and just add to your frustrations. If you feel later on down the line a need/desire to meet with them after some answer leads you in that direction, then do so. I dont think you would find it helpful right now however. I dont think you are ready for that or any sort of evangelizing by anyone yet. Sounds like you have some other things that need to be done right now. JMO. )

 

[zerinus]

Thanks for the words of encouragement. I’m not much in tune with my feelings. Often I tend to distrust intuition and the like. I’m more of a Spock than a Kirk (if you’ve ever watched reruns of the old Star Trek TV show, you might know what I mean).

Yes, I am acquainted with the series.

 

[Marie5890]

Well I can tell you how I came to know. It was through reading the Book of Mormon. Before that time I had tried reading the Bible; but never found it convincing enough to want to continue. But when I read the Book of Mormon, it not only convinced me that it is true; but it convinced me that the Bible is true! And since them I have not been able to put either of them down.

Zerinus, Im curious. Are you a convert to Mormonism or are you BIC?

 

[zerinus]

Zerinus, Im curious. Are you a convert to Mormonism or are you BIC?

I am a convert.

 

[valient_Lucy]

The Jews generally would not have had that teaching among them, since all of their dealings with the God of the Old Testament was with Jehovah, who was Jesus Christ before He was born into this world. Jesus Christ is the “God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.” He is the Creator, as John described in John 1. He was and is I AM.

Do Mormons teach that Jews had no dealings with God the Father, and that Jesus Christ created the world independently from God the Father?

I already know that Mormons teach that the Trinity consists of three gods who work together, not one God in Three Persons.

 

[zerinus]

Do Mormons teach that Jews had no dealings with God the Father, and that Jesus Christ created the world independently from God the Father?

No that is not what we teach.

 

[Marie5890]

I am a convert.

Care to share your conversion story?
How long ago did you join the LDS church?

 

[soren1]

Well I can tell you how I came to know. It was through reading the Book of Mormon. Before that time I had tried reading the Bible; but never found it convincing enough to want to continue. But when I read the Book of Mormon, it not only convinced me that it is true; but it convinced me that the Bible is true! And since them I have not been able to put either of them down.

What you say is not much different from what a lot of Mormons tell us, and I don’t doubt that you have had deep experiences. But so have I. I have personally experienced the Holy Trinity coming over my body and soul, purifying my heart, and delivering me from my sins and from the deepest pains and miseries of my life. I have felt my hand restrained from committing very great sins when I considered the vision of the Trinity that is the truest object of love. If your experiences are true, then mine are not, because the God that was personally revealed to me then does not exist, and indeed is the product of human philosophy perverting the gospel in apostate times.

The real measure of a testimony is not the depth of the experience, but the purification of the heart. In Mormonism, testimony is always described in terms of emotion, in Catholicism it is about conversion, the discovery that I am a great sinner in the process of being cleansed by Christ.

I do not believe that a confirmation of the Bible can come from the Book of Mormon, not in the long run. My reason for saying this is that because of the many plain and evident contradictions between the Bible and the BOM, Mormons must invariably be led to choose between them. It is is just a matter of how soon and how clearly they come to recognize what those contradictions are. Up to a point, you can explain away some of the problem texts, answer some of the common arguments, but you can’t sustain it if you really scrutinize it.

I don’t know of any religion apart from Islam that abuses Biblical texts more flagrantly than Mormonism. From Joseph Smith’s horrendous translation of Gen 1:1 to the use of Amos to support the Great Apostasy and Job to support pre-existence, or 1 Cor 8:5 to support plurality of gods, etc., etc., etc., I am continually amazed at the lows to which the Mormon leadership will sink in their manifest disrespect for the holy books. And that is stronger evidence against their testimony than any experiential fireworks that anyone might have.

 

[zerinus]

Care to share your conversion story?

The same as what I said: read the Book of Mormon, and knew it was true. Nothing more dramatic than that.

How long ago did you join the LDS church?

I would be telling you too much then!

 

[zerinus]

What you say is not much different from what a lot of Mormons tell us, and I don’t doubt that you have had deep experiences. But so have I. I have personally experienced the Holy Trinity coming over my body and soul, purifying my heart, and delivering me from my sins and from the deepest pains and miseries of my life. I have felt my hand restrained from committing very great sins when I considered the vision of the Trinity that is the truest object of love. If your experiences are true, then mine are not, because the God that was personally revealed to me then does not exist, and indeed is the product of human philosophy perverting the gospel in apostate times.

The real measure of a testimony is not the depth of the experience, but the purification of the heart. In Mormonism, testimony is always described in terms of emotion, in Catholicism it is about conversion, the discovery that I am a great sinner in the process of being cleansed by Christ.

I do not believe that a confirmation of the Bible can come from the Book of Mormon, not in the long run. My reason for saying this is that because of the many plain and evident contradictions between the Bible and the BOM, Mormons must invariably be led to choose between them. It is is just a matter of how soon and how clearly they come to recognize what those contradictions are. Up to a point, you can explain away some of the problem texts, answer some of the common arguments, but you can’t sustain it if you really scrutinize it.

I don’t know of any religion apart from Islam that abuses Biblical texts more flagrantly than Mormonism. From Joseph Smith’s horrendous translation of Gen 1:1 to the use of Amos to support the Great Apostasy and Job to support pre-existence, or 1 Cor 8:5 to support plurality of gods, etc., etc., etc., I am continually amazed at the lows to which the Mormon leadership will sink in their manifest disrespect for the holy books. And that is stronger evidence against their testimony than any experiential fireworks that anyone might have.

Your agenda is clear before you start. I am not interested in conversing with you.

 

[Marie5890]

What you say is not much different from what a lot of Mormons tell us, and I don’t doubt that you have had deep experiences. But so have I. I have personally experienced the Holy Trinity coming over my body and soul, purifying my heart, and delivering me from my sins and from the deepest pains and miseries of my life. I have felt my hand restrained from committing very great sins when I considered the vision of the Trinity that is the truest object of love. If your experiences are true, then mine are not, because the God that was personally revealed to me then does not exist, and indeed is the product of human philosophy perverting the gospel in apostate times.

The real measure of a testimony is not the depth of the experience, but the purification of the heart. In Mormonism, testimony is always described in terms of emotion, in Catholicism it is about conversion, the discovery that I am a great sinner in the process of being cleansed by Christ.

I do not believe that a confirmation of the Bible can come from the Book of Mormon, not in the long run. My reason for saying this is that because of the many plain and evident contradictions between the Bible and the BOM, Mormons must invariably be led to choose between them. It is is just a matter of how soon and how clearly they come to recognize what those contradictions are. Up to a point, you can explain away some of the problem texts, answer some of the common arguments, but you can’t sustain it if you really scrutinize it.

I don’t know of any religion apart from Islam that abuses Biblical texts more flagrantly than Mormonism. From Joseph Smith’s horrendous translation of Gen 1:1 to the use of Amos to support the Great Apostasy and Job to support pre-existence, or 1 Cor 8:5 to support plurality of gods, etc., etc., etc., I am continually amazed at the lows to which the Mormon leadership will sink in their manifest disrespect for the holy books. And that is stronger evidence against their testimony than any experiential fireworks that anyone might have.

Your point about how many people, regardless of church affiliation, experience the witness of the Holy Spirit is well taken. The does put people at odds when it comes to what they have experienced.

That aside, I do find the rest of your post to be lacking in the spirit of Christian Love as taught by our Lord, and I find that deeply regrettable, made all the more stark by the season of Advent.

I had the opportunity of being aquainted with Pres and Sis Holland when he was president of BYU. Truly good and God fearing people. Devoted to good Christian life and caring for others.

Undermining the sincere faith of others wasnt what they were about.

 

[spockrates]

Why do you think that God can only communicate with you through your feelings?

My guess is that this is what you and Parker are describing. Whenever I ask a question like, “How will I know God is the source of the Book of Mormon?” you both describe something akin to a burning in the bosom and an intuitive sense of peace and conviction. Sounds like subjective feelings to me.