Clarification on Mormon Belief

[spockrates]

Yes, I am acquainted with the series.

Then you are probably aware that Captain Kirk often surprised Spock by acting on a hunch that the science officer found extremely illogical and risky. Kirk’s hunches were always right; but that’s the stuff of which good science fiction is made, I suppose.

Are you also familiar with the latest Battle Star Galactica series that aired on the SciFi channel, or is the semi-violent and sexual content something you personally avoid?

 

[Marie5890]

Are you also familiar with the latest Battle Star Galactica series that aired on the SciFi channel, or is the semi-violent and sexual content something you personally avoid?

(Psst fun trivia…Battle Star Galactica was created by Glen A Larson, a Mormon. Its filled with Mormon themes. )

 

[catholic-rcia]

What you say is not much different from what a lot of Mormons tell us, and I don’t doubt that you have had deep experiences. But so have I. I have personally experienced the Holy Trinity coming over my body and soul, purifying my heart, and delivering me from my sins and from the deepest pains and miseries of my life. I have felt my hand restrained from committing very great sins when I considered the vision of the Trinity that is the truest object of love. If your experiences are true, then mine are not, because the God that was personally revealed to me then does not exist, and indeed is the product of human philosophy perverting the gospel in apostate times.

The real measure of a testimony is not the depth of the experience, but the purification of the heart. In Mormonism, testimony is always described in terms of emotion, in Catholicism it is about conversion, the discovery that I am a great sinner in the process of being cleansed by Christ.

I do not believe that a confirmation of the Bible can come from the Book of Mormon, not in the long run. My reason for saying this is that because of the many plain and evident contradictions between the Bible and the BOM, Mormons must invariably be led to choose between them. It is is just a matter of how soon and how clearly they come to recognize what those contradictions are. Up to a point, you can explain away some of the problem texts, answer some of the common arguments, but you can’t sustain it if you really scrutinize it.

I don’t know of any religion apart from Islam that abuses Biblical texts more flagrantly than Mormonism. From Joseph Smith’s horrendous translation of

to the use of Amos to support the Great Apostasy and Job to support pre-existence, or 1 Cor 8:5 to support plurality of gods, etc., etc., etc., I am continually amazed at the lows to which the Mormon leadership will sink in their manifest disrespect for the holy books. And that is stronger evidence against their testimony than any experiential fireworks that anyone might have.

I can see why one would want to silence you

I would agree with your post here whole heartily. As long as you still love them in Christ. It is amazing to me as well.
How a people can place themselves above another, that they can do a better job than Jesus Himself that they are a better breed of people. It is all about Jesus, what He has done for each and every one of us. If you have questions about which Church is true I would look for a Cross. If you want to know which Church is authentic look for a Crucifix. Sinners who face there sin can stand comfortably under it knowing what forgiveness’ means and the cost paid. Jesus is our Lord and our God, we are Christians.

Lest I forget Gethsemane,

Lest I forget thine agony,

Lest I forget thy love for me,

Lead me to Calvary.

http://chooseyourcross.com/Mission-Statement.html

Here I am, good and gentle Jesus, kneeling before you. With great fervor I pray and ask you to instill in me genuine convictions of faith, hope and love, with true sorrow for my sins and a firm resolve to amend them. While I contemplate your five wounds with great love and compassion, I remember the words which the prophet David long ago put on your lips: “They have pierced my hands and my feet, I can count all my bones.” (Psalm 22/17-18).

 

[ParkerD]

My guess is that this is what you and Parker are describing. Whenever I ask a question like, “How will I know God is the source of the Book of Mormon?” you both describe something akin to a burning in the bosom and an intuitive sense of peace and conviction. Sounds like subjective feelings to me.

Spockrates,
I feel inclined to give one more response here about this subject. The term “subjective feelings” may have a negative connotation to one seeking “proof” (not saying you are), but if God is to have one-on-one communication with each person, then only each person as an individual is going to be able to know and say for sure that they have received communication from God. That would be described as a “subjective” experience, because no one else can “test” it, or objectively determine “yes” or “no” as to whether it was from God, although they can objectively see the effects, and Paul wrote often about those–how they will love others, how they will feel about the fruits of the gospel in their life, how they will forgive, how they will have peace in their heart that shows in their relationships with others.

One seeking the Holy Spirit will not be seeking a sign and will not be seeking to justify a course of action they have already chosen to follow, or to justify the course of action their parents chose in their own life or chose to place into the life of that person as a child. (They will not seek to justify traditions, because traditions can too easily ensnare.) They will seek to ask pure questions and to receive pure answers, and their objective will be to know the truth and to love the truths God wants to bring into their life, which will definitely mean changing behavior since to know the truth means we move from small knowledge to greater knowledge, and that continues to happen, but only as we change when we learn truths and apply them in our life.

 

[zerinus]

My guess is that this is what you and Parker are describing. Whenever I ask a question like, “How will I know God is the source of the Book of Mormon?” you both describe something akin to a burning in the bosom and an intuitive sense of peace and conviction. Sounds like subjective feelings to me.

That is not what I am saying; I don’t know about Parker. God has an infinite variety of ways of communicating His messages to people, depending of their personalities, life experiences, their desires to please God, and the measure of their faith. The Book of Mormon says that if study the Book of Mormon, and ask God in faith, the truth of it will be made known to you by the power of the Holy Ghost. But it does not say how the Holy Ghost will communicate that knowledge to you. It is God who has made the promise, and it is His job to make good His promise so that you will be convinced. Your job is to trust Him, and apply His test. It is anti-Mormons who try to sow doubt in people’s minds by calling it just a “feeling”. It is not.

 

[zerinus]

Then you are probably aware that Captain Kirk often surprised Spock by acting on a hunch that the science officer found extremely illogical and risky. Kirk’s hunches were always right; but that’s the stuff of which good science fiction is made, I suppose.

Yes, I agree. Good series by the way.

Are you also familiar with the latest Battle Star Galactica series that aired on the SciFi channel, or is the semi-violent and sexual content something you personally avoid?

No, I am not familiar with that particular series.

 

[spockrates]

(Psst fun trivia…Battle Star Galactica was created by Glen A Larson, a Mormon. Its filled with Mormon themes. )

Spock whispers back: Yes, that’s why I asked!

 

[spockrates]

Spockrates,
I feel inclined to give one more response here about this subject. The term “subjective feelings” may have a negative connotation to one seeking “proof” (not saying you are), but if God is to have one-on-one communication with each person, then only each person as an individual is going to be able to know and say for sure that they have received communication from God. That would be described as a “subjective” experience, because no one else can “test” it, or objectively determine “yes” or “no” as to whether it was from God, although they can objectively see the effects, and Paul wrote often about those–how they will love others, how they will feel about the fruits of the gospel in their life, how they will forgive, how they will have peace in their heart that shows in their relationships with others.

One seeking the Holy Spirit will not be seeking a sign and will not be seeking to justify a course of action they have already chosen to follow, or to justify the course of action their parents chose in their own life or chose to place into the life of that person as a child. (They will not seek to justify traditions, because traditions can too easily ensnare.) They will seek to ask pure questions and to receive pure answers, and their objective will be to know the truth and to love the truths God wants to bring into their life, which will definitely mean changing behavior since to know the truth means we move from small knowledge to greater knowledge, and that continues to happen, but only as we change when we learn truths and apply them in our life.

That is not what I am saying; I don’t know about Parker. God has an infinite variety of ways of communicating His messages to people, depending of their personalities, life experiences, their desires to please God, and the measure of their faith. The Book of Mormon says that if study the Book of Mormon, and ask God in faith, the truth of it will be made known to you by the power of the Holy Ghost. But it does not say how the Holy Ghost will communicate that knowledge to you. It is God who has made the promise, and it is His job to make good His promise so that you will be convinced. Your job is to trust Him, and apply His test. It is anti-Mormons who try to sow doubt in people’s minds by calling it just a “feeling”. It is not.

Yes, gentlemen, I hear what you are saying. But I hope you will see that I mean no disrespect. I’m trying my best to submit myself to God the best way I know how. At this point in my life that means seeking truth in the pages of the Bible–either by trying to understand what is unclear to me in its pages, or by trying to obey what is clear to me in its pages. One clear command that I’m trying to follow now is this:

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

(1 John 4:1)

And I’m not saying that Joseph Smith, or the LDS Church is a false prophet. I’m just obeying God by testing whether he or it is. I’m doing the same with the Catholic Church–I’m not claiming their Church or their Pope is a false prophet. I’m just obeying God by testing whether it or he is.

One way I can test this is to ask how both of you were convinced of the truth of the Book of Mormon. But perhaps I’m asking too personal a question. So I’m also asking how others you know, or of whom you know, have become convinced of the truth of the Book of Mormon. You answered, Zerinus, that Joseph Smith received a visit from the Father God and the Son of God. But I cannot expect God to visibly visit little ol’ me, you see? So I’d like some more information. Maybe an account of a Mormon conversion that I can consider. I learn best by considering examples, and by comparing and contrasting one example with another. Being overly rational, that’s just how I roll.

If both of you don’t care to share, or have nothing to share, just let me know. I won’t be offended and I won’t continue to pry.

 

[Jay53]

spockrates,

I have been pondering your dilemma for a bit and I can certainly see how your discernment process can be confusing. On the one hand you’ve got some people claiming that the Holy Spirit has led them to the Mormon Church and on the other, people claiming the Holy Spirit has led them (or in my case, kept them) in the Catholic Church. How do you know which is true?

I’m afraid I don’t have any concrete answers for you. My suggestion is only prayer and Eucharistic Adoration. Even if you don’t believe that Christ is truly present in the Eucharist, you can go and sit in the Chapel. (I think someone else may have even suggested this to you already.) I have found immeasurable peace through Adoration.

As a Catholic, I obviously believe the Catholic Church has the “fullness of Truth”. I can’t speak to the experiences of others, but, given my faith and my experiences and prayers answered, I can only conclude that anyone who has said that God has led them outside the Catholic Church is mistaken or has misinterpreted what they have experienced.

For example, there is one poster in this forum who claims that God answered her prayer and led her to Islam. Now, since Islam denies the divinity of Christ and even His Crucifixion, I have to conclude that Islam is not true. But this poster firmly believes she was led there by God. My own opinion on that is that she was not “led” there by God, but that God perhaps allowed her to go in that direction because He has a purpose for her later. (i.e. this person has researched Islam and is a very eloquent, patient debater. She is very knowledgeable about Islam. I even told her that, given her skills and ability to research, she would be an awesome advocate for Christ once she had the Truth. God may be using her to help lead other Muslims to Christ once she is ready.)

There is also another poster here who was led to Islam, converted, and then was led back to Christ in the Orthodox Church. He is also very good at debating Muslims and again, I think God “allowed” him to be led to Islam so that he would have that knowledge and be able to lead others to Christ. Just my 2 cents.

One person who helped alot of people in his lifetime and who might give you some insight is St. Padre Pio. Even though he is now dead, his life may spark something in you and help you in your journey. ewtn.com/padrepio/man/biography.htm

May God bless you and guide you on your journey.

 

[spockrates]

Yes, I agree. Good series by the way.

No, I am not familiar with that particular series.

I bring it up only because the topic of how God communicates is on theme of the TV series and thought it might facilitate our discussion.

The Battle Star Galactica series aired for three years on the SciFi cannel (now called SyFy). It is nothing like it’s cheesy predecessor that aired in the 1980s on TV. It is, perhaps, the best science fiction television I’ve had the pleasure of viewing. Like all good science fiction, it deals with topics of the current culture. Subjects like terrorism, war, racial prejudice, religious persecution, religious faith, and even how God communicates to individuals are all covered in the series. (And, as Marie pointed out, the idea for the series came from a book written by a Mormon.) The series is available from Netflix and can also be viewed online at the SyFy Web site:

syfy.com/battlestar/index.php

There is violence and suggestive sexual content (on the level of PG-14) so I would not recommend it for all audiences.

 

[spockrates]

…
13 And it shall come to pass that the Jews shall have the words of the Nephites, and the Nephites shall have the words of the Jews; and the Nephites and the Jews shall have the words of the lost tribes of Israel; and the lost tribes of Israel shall have the words of the Nephites and the Jews.
14 And it shall come to pass that my people, which are of the house of Israel, shall be gathered home unto the lands of their possessions; and my word also shall be gathered in cone. And I will show unto them that fight against my word and against my people, who are of the house of Israel, that I am God, and that I covenanted with Abraham that I would remember his seed forever.

(2 Nephi 29)

Quote by Spockrates:

Sorry, I must have missed this excellent question! The answer is “No, I would not fail to have faith in Isaiah if the Dead Sea scroll containing the entire book was not found.”

However, I *would *find reason to doubt if the Book of Isaiah contained no predictions of the future that were fulfilled. There are two reasons for this:

1. The predictions of Christ’s life, birth and death are certain proof that God spoke to Isaiah, for Isaiah could never know what he wrote about our Lord and Savior:

5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

(Isaiah 53:5-6)

As the Ethiopian asked Philip in Acts, chapter 8, “Is the prophet speaking of himself, or of another?” Isaiah was, as you and I know, speaking of Christ. But how could the prophet know anything about the man who would be born hundreds of years after he himself was in the grave?

.

2. God indicates that He is a God who predicts the future, and all false gods cannot predict the future with the same accuracy and proliferation:

3The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

…

21 “ Present your case,” says the LORD.
“ Bring forth your strong reasons,” says the King of Jacob.
22 “ Let them bring forth and show us what will happen;
Let them show the former things, what they were,
That we may consider them,
And know the latter end of them;
Or declare to us things to come.
23 Show the things that are to come hereafter,
That we may know that you are gods;
Yes, do good or do evil,
That we may be dismayed and see it together.

…

8"I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

9Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them."

(Isaiah 40-42)

Our Lord, then, sets Himself apart from false gods by saying He alone will predict the future. This is one reason I’m asking you to provide predictions of the future from the Book of Mormon, and am grateful to have them to consider.

Now, having answered your question first, will you answer mine? If the answer is that there are no extant MSS of the writings of the Nephite prophets, then will you care to further discuss prophecies of the Book of Mormon?

 

[spockrates]

spockrates,

I have been pondering your dilemma for a bit and I can certainly see how your discernment process can be confusing. On the one hand you’ve got some people claiming that the Holy Spirit has led them to the Mormon Church and on the other, people claiming the Holy Spirit has led them (or in my case, kept them) in the Catholic Church. How do you know which is true?

Thank you, Jay, for trying to understand my dilemma, even though you might not share it.

I’m afraid I don’t have any concrete answers for you. My suggestion is only prayer and Eucharistic Adoration. Even if you don’t believe that Christ is truly present in the Eucharist, you can go and sit in the Chapel. (I think someone else may have even suggested this to you already.) I have found immeasurable peace through Adoration.

Yes, Jay, you, Marie, and other Catholics have suggested this to me. Ironically, some Mormons suggest a similar method, albeit with a alternate goal: They suggest I pray and ask God to show me the Book of Mormon is true and that God will confirm it is so by giving me peace and removing my feelings of doubt (even though my rational reasons for doubt remain).

As a Catholic, I obviously believe the Catholic Church has the “fullness of Truth”. I can’t speak to the experiences of others, but, given my faith and my experiences and prayers answered, I can only conclude that anyone who has said that God has led them outside the Catholic Church is mistaken or has misinterpreted what they have experienced.

Yes, that is my thought, as well–not that Mormons are deceived, but that either Mormons or Catholics or both are deceived. For logic tells me both cannot possibly be believing the truth, as their truths are contrary.

For example, there is one poster in this forum who claims that God answered her prayer and led her to Islam. Now, since Islam denies the divinity of Christ and even His Crucifixion, I have to conclude that Islam is not true. But this poster firmly believes she was led there by God. My own opinion on that is that she was not “led” there by God, but that God perhaps allowed her to go in that direction because He has a purpose for her later. (i.e. this person has researched Islam and is a very eloquent, patient debater. She is very knowledgeable about Islam. I even told her that, given her skills and ability to research, she would be an awesome advocate for Christ once she had the Truth. God may be using her to help lead other Muslims to Christ once she is ready.)

There is also another poster here who was led to Islam, converted, and then was led back to Christ in the Orthodox Church. He is also very good at debating Muslims and again, I think God “allowed” him to be led to Islam so that he would have that knowledge and be able to lead others to Christ. Just my 2 cents.

One person who helped a lot of people in his lifetime and who might give you some insight is St. Padre Pio. Even though he is now dead, his life may spark something in you and help you in your journey. ewtn.com/padrepio/man/biography.htm

May God bless you and guide you on your journey.

I hope you will understand my reasons for doubt, even though you don’t share them. You see, both Catholics and Mormons (but not all of them) tell me to not consider objective evidence, but to trust my subjective feelings. Mormons tell me to pray about the Book of Mormon while reading it; Catholics tell me to pray about the Eucharist while kneeling near it. I suppose you would tell me that if my feelings tell me the Book of Mormon is true, then you would say I was deceived, but if my feelings tell me the Eucharist is really Christ, then I’ve found the truth! But how can I be sure such a method will lead me to the truth when you readily admit it can lead to deception?

Also, Mormons tell me their spiritual Joseph Smith, and the leaders who succeeded him are trustworthy spokesmen for God. Catholics tell me their Popes and other apostolic successors are trustworthy spokesmen for God. But how do I know when a witness for God is a genuine one or a false one?

What I need is some measure of truth–like a ruler is a measure of the truth of length, or a multiplication table is the measure of the truth of a mathematical calculation. Don’t you think?

 

[Marie5890]

Yes, Jay, you, Marie, and other Catholics have suggested this to me.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:....static.flickr.com/41/84342679_5584124956.jpg

For clarifications of the facts:

where did Isuggest you go before the Blessed Sacrament? I know I gave you an example of how I worked thru my own issues and doubts, one of those doubts being Eurcharist Adoration, but I dont think I suggested that YOU do it.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

What I did suggest to you is to attend both LDS sacrament services and Masses to see if the Holy Spirit is directing you in one way or the other. I even suggested you may want to meet with LDS Missionaries.

Please I would be obliged if you dont twist what I say or projected things onto my writings that I never wrote.

Thank You.

( I went back and checked post 217: I am right. I never made that suggestion to you. Im not sure why you projected onto that post something I never said. Im sure that just added to your confusion)

 

[Jay53]

Thank you, Jay, for trying to understand my dilemma, even though you might not share it.



Yes, Jay, you, Marie, and other Catholics have suggested this to me. Ironically, some Mormons suggest a similar method, albeit with a alternate goal: They suggest I pray and ask God to show me the Book of Mormon is true and that God will confirm it is so by giving me peace and removing my feelings of doubt (even though my rational reasons for doubt remain).

Yes, that is my thought, as well–not that Mormons are deceived, but that either Mormons or Catholics or both are deceived. For logic tells me both cannot possibly be believing the truth, as their truths are contrary.

I hope you will understand my reasons for doubt, even though you don’t share them. You see, both Catholics and Mormons (but not all of them) tell me to not consider objective evidence, but to trust my subjective feelings. Mormons tell me to pray about the Book of Mormon while reading it; Catholics tell me to pray about the Eucharist while kneeling near it. I suppose you would tell me that if my feelings tell me the Book of Mormon is true, then you would say I was deceived, but if my feelings tell me the Eucharist is really Christ, then I’ve found the truth! But how can I be sure such a method will lead me to the truth when you readily admit it can lead to deception?

Also, Mormons tell me their spiritual Joseph Smith, and the leaders who succeeded him are trustworthy spokesmen for God. Catholics tell me their Popes and other apostolic successors are trustworthy spokesmen for God. But how do I know when a witness for God is a genuine one or a false one?

What I need is some measure of truth–like a ruler is a measure of the truth of length, or a multiplication table is the measure of the truth of a mathematical calculation. Don’t you think?

I’m afraid you will never get an “absolute” truth for which you are searching. I think that is part of what faith is all about. If there were some “absolute” truth, then there wouldn’t be any division in the world, no atheists, agnostics, etc.

That is where Satan comes in - he tries to divide and lead people away from the Truth. I honestly don’t know how to help you - this is a journey you have to make for yourself with Jesus. If through your prayer you feel the Book of Mormon is true, then that is where you should place your faith. On the other hand, if you feel that the Eucharist is truly Jesus, then that is where you should place your faith.

Ultimately we will not know who was right until we die.

My own opinion is that the lack of belief in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist is possibly the biggest sign/reason that Mormonism is false. In researching the history of the Church there is no doubt that the Apostles and the Early Church believed in the Eucharist and the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. IMO, the biggest reason the Mormon Church does not have the Eucharist is because they do not have the Apostolic Authority for Jesus to work through their ‘priests’ in the same way that He does through Catholic and Orthodox priests. (Satan’s powers only extend so far and obviously cannot extend to pretending Jesus is in communion when He is not.)

I have asked Mormons for evidence of their Quorum of Twelve having Apostolic authority in the way that Jesus’ Apostles exhibited it. So far I haven’t received any. Jesus’ Apostles were given the Gift of Miracles to verify their apostleship and the truthfulness of their message. Mormons claim that they have the restoration of that Apostleship, but so far have been unable to show me in what way they are the same. I don’t recall seeing any Mormons here even acknowledge the Gift of Miracles of Jesus’ Apostles, although I may have just missed it. I have simply been accused of “seeking signs”.

 

[Jay53]

For clarifications of the facts:

where did Isuggest you go before the Blessed Sacrament? I know I gave you an example of how I worked thru my own issues and doubts, one of those doubts being Eurcharist Adoration, but I dont think I suggested that YOU do it.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

What I did suggest to you is to attend both LDS sacrament services and Masses to see if the Holy Spirit is directing you in one way or the other. I even suggested you may want to meet with LDS Missionaries.

Please I would be obliged if you dont twist what I say or projected things onto my writings that I never wrote.

Thank You.

( I went back and checked post 217: I am right. I never made that suggestion to you. Im not sure why you projected onto that post something I never said. Im sure that just added to your confusion)

I may have added to his confusion. I thought someone else suggested Adoration to him too. (Not necessarily you, but someone - maybe I had misread your post or am thinking of someone else’s post.) Sorry, if that was my fault.

 

[catholic-rcia]

My guess is that this is what you and Parker are describing. Whenever I ask a question like, “How will I know God is the source of the Book of Mormon?” you both describe something akin to a burning in the bosom and an intuitive sense of peace and conviction. Sounds like subjective feelings to me.

Here is an example of just one of those feelings for me. When we moved to Utah 11 years ago my wife who is Catholic asked me if I would learn about the Catholic faith there. I was going to Utah to make money plain and simple so you might say I made a deal with her. To get her to go I said yes I would look into it. A lot of things happened then and continue to happen today but here is just a small snippet of one of them. Parker knows this story. You may call it a testimony but I would rather call it a reality that I myself have no control over, the reality of the Holy Spirit moving in my life. This spirit is with me every moment, it tends to feel stronger in the blessed Sacrament Chapel of our church.

I have always heard that Catholics pray to Saints. Hearing about this from a Mormon Missionary while knowing nothing about would sound strange. But a young trained Mormon Missionary would no nothing about them or there lives. Or the reasons why a Catholic would pray to one for assistance (Within the one body of Christ)

While I was learning the basic tenants of the Catholic faith, learning about Catholic interaction with the Saints an LDS man told me we pray to dead Saints. I could go into that but I won’t. it was interesting talking to him with my new knowledge on this subject. Really just days before I new nothing about Catholic Saints.

At one of our Catholic inquiry classes I began to hear about a man named Issac Jouges. A priest who came from France hundreds of years ago to help in the conversion of the North American Indians up around the Saint Lawrence river in Quebec. . I began to connect a few dots. I thought to myself interesting as my wife is French Canadian. Then they began to speak about his ordeal with the Huron and Mohawk Indians. Interesting I though as my wife has both Huron and Mohawk in her blood. When I got home that night I looked up this Saint of the Catholic Church on the internet and this is what I found, http://utahmission.com/pages/cJouges_page.html

“……At night, the prisoners were tied spread-eagle to the ground, and the children were encouraged to throw live coals on their bare flesh. One of the laymen and many of the Hurons were killed during these ordeals. In spite of his own pain, Jogues heard his companions’ confessions, gave absolution………

Please read his story at the link above.

As far as warm feelings go, I began to get a ruch of them as I read about this man and his companions. I not only had a connection with a Catholic Saint, I had a connection with the one that brought me to Christ through my wife and her ancestors. 400 years later and 3 thousand miles away. A Saint touched my soul and he was pointing to Jesus. That is what a Saint does, he or she points to Jesus and says…don’t look at me, a mere sinner, look to Jesus. As a child I used to love to look at the beautiful images of the LDS warriors with all of their gold armor and swords. But when I found this man Issac I grew up a bit, this was something I could wrap my soul round, something solid, even historical.
Eleven years later I continue to have revelations such as this, to many to count or speak about there. Encounters with Christ over and over again…daily. I hope this helps. I have to say it scares me to think of the young people placing there hand on a King James asking which church is true. I understand how this can work on someone who is searching for something better. These feeling can deceive especially the young. You can get the same feelings from drugs, from sex and from gambling. You really have to do due diligence but you first you have to have a good reason otherwise you can be led just about anywhere. The best example to avoid temptation that looks really good is to read the account of Jesus in the desert. He said no to many things that would appear good to anyone of us. Because he knew what was from His Father and what was not.

 

[Marie5890]

I may have added to his confusion. I thought someone else suggested Adoration to him too. (Not necessarily you, but someone - maybe I had misread your post or am thinking of someone else’s post.) Sorry, if that was my fault.

Ah, thats for the clarification Jay. I can see where something got twisted if not closely paid attention to.

No, I never suggested he go before the Blessed Sacrament. Since there are some similarities between his path and mine I wouldnt make such a suggestion cause I doubt he would find it helpful.

Exercising faith is necessary (even if one has doubts) when going to Eurcharist Adoration and I know that is not where he is at.

 

[Marie5890]

What I need is some measure of truth–like a ruler is a measure of the truth of length, or a multiplication table is the measure of the truth of a mathematical calculation. Don’t you think?

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:....static.flickr.com/41/84342679_5584124956.jpg

Why dont you tell God that? That you NEED some sort of “spiritual ruler”. That you need the infinite to fit into your finite mind? That for some reason faith simply doesnt cut it and He is just going to have to do better if He is to convince you?

Don’t you think its time to put God Himself to the test in your life?

 

[zerinus]

I’m trying my best to submit myself to God the best way I know how. At this point in my life that means seeking truth in the pages of the Bible–either by trying to understand what is unclear to me in its pages, or by trying to obey what is clear to me in its pages. One clear command that I’m trying to follow now is this:

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

(1 John 4:1)

I have no problem with that. It is a pity that Paul didn’t tell you how to “try the spirits”! So I am curious in finding out how you intend to carry out that test.

And I’m not saying that Joseph Smith, or the LDS Church is a false prophet. I’m just obeying God by testing whether he or it is. I’m doing the same with the Catholic Church–I’m not claiming their Church or their Pope is a false prophet. I’m just obeying God by testing whether it or he is.

I am all for it. But the question still remains: how do you intend to carry out that test?

One way I can test this is to ask how both of you were convinced of the truth of the Book of Mormon. But perhaps I’m asking too personal a question. So I’m also asking how others you know, or of whom you know, have become convinced of the truth of the Book of Mormon.

Why do you think that is a good test? Suppose I told you that an angel came down and told me that it was true; how would you know that I am telling the truth or lying? Suppose I said that I saw a great flash of lightning, and heard a mighty voice telling me that it was true; how would you know that I am telling the truth, lying, or hallucinating? I am just curious to know why you thing that is a good way of “testing the spirits”?

You answered, Zerinus, that Joseph Smith received a visit from the Father God and the Son of God. But I cannot expect God to visibly visit little ol’ me, you see?

Why not? God doesn’t give those kinds of manifestations depending on whether you are important or unimportant. “Though the Lord be high, yet hath he respect unto the lowly: but the proud he knoweth afar off” (Psalms 138:6). The only people God doesn’t like to talk to are the proud. To the humble and faithful He has promised to reveal all things.

So I’d like some more information. Maybe an account of a Mormon conversion that I can consider. I learn best by considering examples, and by comparing and contrasting one example with another. Being overly rational, that’s just how I roll.

You will know the truth of the Book of Mormon primarily by reading it. It is like any other book, isn’t it? Would you consider judging any book without first reading it? Suppose you were talking to a non-Christian like a Hindu or Buddhist who was investigating Christianity; would you recommend to them to “test” the Bible before reading it; or would you tell them to read it, and find out for themselves what it contains, and judge it that way?

If both of you don’t care to share, or have nothing to share, just let me know. I won’t be offended and I won’t continue to pry.

The answer to that clear, I don’t. If I had experienced a great spiritual manifestation, chances are that I wouldn’t want to share it, because it would be too sacred to share with those who do not believe. There are people who have had such experiences; but as a rule they don’t like to talk about it because it is too sacred to share with just anybody, especially “sign seekers” like you! That is what you are doing; you are looking for a sign! You will get no answers that way; only a repeat of the promise made in the Book of Mormon:

Moroni 10:

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

You either believe that and apply it or you don’t; end of the story.

Paul didn’t tell us how to “try the spirits;” but elsewhere he does say something about the “fruits of the Spirit” that I think is relevant:

Galatians 5:

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Ephesians 5:

9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth; )
10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

 

[zerinus]

Our Lord, then, sets Himself apart from false gods by saying He alone will predict the future. This is one reason I’m asking you to provide predictions of the future from the Book of Mormon, and am grateful to have them to consider.

Now, having answered your question first, will you answer mine? If the answer is that there are no extant MSS of the writings of the Nephite prophets, then will you care to further discuss prophecies of the Book of Mormon?

I did quote you prophecies from the Book of Mormon. There are still more if you wanted to look for them. Do you really want me to go and dig up all the prophecies in the Book of Mormon, and quote them here on CAF? If you are genuinely interested in that aspect of the Book of Mormon, the easiest solution is to read the book and find that out for yourself. Don’t you think?