Clarification on the Holy Trinity

[Homerun40968]

An overwhelming majority of Christians believe in the trinity. I believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit equally make up God.

Yet, I’m confused, because Jesus said things like “I must pray to my father,” and “My father is pleased.”

But at the same time he said, “If you have seen me, you have seen my Father.”

**I still believe that the Trinity is the most confusing topic in all of Christianity. The human mind cannot even comprehend it. But some of you may be able to help a little.
**
Start from the beginning because I really don’t understand this.

 

[JimG]

If you haven’t read Frank Sheed’s Theology for Beginners, and Theology and Sanity, start there.

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit don’t “make up” God in the sense that God is totality composed of three things.

God is one thing. One nature, one entity, one ‘what’. God is alos a personal entity expressed in three persons, whose identity is expressed in their relation to one another. The Father does not possess a different or a separate divine nature from the Son, but the same one. Likewise, the Spirit possesses the one same divine nature which is also possessed in its entirety by Father and Son. One nature. Three persons. Start with Frank Sheed.

 

[YADA]

I can concur with a start with Sheed …

The term “three persons” I think has us thinking about people like three individuals, “Tom, **** and Harry”

However, I believe you need to start from the Greek inderstanding of the word “personas” … which is more closely related to a relationships …

So here is the mystery … [although we can only attempt to comprehend but never understand the mystery of God and/or the incarnation]…the Trinity is perfection in three ‘personas’ the Father, the Son ad te Holy Spirit … One God…

So I am one person [one unique innndividual] and yet I am a daugher, sibling, cousin, wife, mother, grandmother, friend,employee, employer, christian, etc … so much more … SOme of these things I might only be for a short time … others I am for a lifetime, still others I might be for a time, then not and then again … but God is always perfectly complete.

St.Patrick used the clover leif, water has been used [H2O: ice, liquid and steam but always H2O] etc…

The one certainly is that we can do what we can to logically explain the Trinity bit is ultimately is a tenet of “FAITH” something we do our best to comprehend but which we acknowledge our limitation to understand …

One of the Mysteries is that the Trinity can be perfect and complete in only Three

 

[nkbeth]

An overwhelming majority of Christians believe in the trinity. I believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit equally make up God.

Yet, I’m confused, because Jesus said things like “I must pray to my father,” and “My father is pleased.”

But at the same time he said, “If you have seen me, you have seen my Father.”

**I still believe that the Trinity is the most confusing topic in all of Christianity. The human mind cannot even comprehend it. But some of you may be able to help a little.
**
Start from the beginning because I really don’t understand this.

What Jesus says in these different cases is not only about the Trinity, it is about another Mystery - how He can be both God and Man.

I think that sometimes He speaks as Man: “I must pray to my father,”

But in others He speaks as God (the Son): “If you have seen me, you have seen my Father.”

But at least when He says “My father is pleased.” perhaps He is speaking as both God and Man.​

About the Trinity…

Here is a story about St. Augustine (from the internet somewhere):

Walking along the seashore reflecting on the mystery of the Trinity, Augustine came upon a child who was using a shell to make a hole in the sand and fill it with sea water.Augustine realized that his efforts to understand the Trinity were as futile as the child’s trying to put the entire ocean in the hole he had made in the sand

We can reason to (or at least see evidence for) the existence of God. But the Trinity concerns God’s inner being. Only God can fully comprehend all that He is (1 God in 3 Divine Persons).

But by faith we know there is a Trinity, and we know some that is said in Scripture (about each Person). And we can try to catch just a teeny glimpse of what the Trinity is LIKE (not really what it is). That is, we can use analogies to show that the Trinity is not anti-reason, just beyond reason. Probably the most common analogy is St. Patrick’s shamrock (3 leaves in 1).

The Church says that the Son proceeds (from all eternity) from the Father, and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. This procession isn’t in time at all; the words we use are only human words.

More analogies…

The Father “generates” the Son (like a human father generates his son). The Father (in a way, I think) “speaks” the Word (the Word was God, as St. John says). The Father sends the Son - to become our Saviour, Jesus Christ. The Son thus (as Christ) becomes the visible expression (the word) of God’s love for us.

The Son proceeding from the Father relates to the Son being sent to us as Christ.

The Holy Spirit is (like) the Love between the Father and the Son (which is how the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father and the Son). Maybe this is more than just analogy. In any case, it always seems so very beautiful to me, as an expression of the inner life of God.

The Father and the Son send the Holy Spirit, for the Sanctification of God’s Church. The Holy Spirt (the Paraclete) descended upon the Apostles at Pentecost (the “birthday” of the Church).

John 15:26 But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth

The Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son relates to the Holy Spirit being sent to the Church.

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit don’t go off separately to do these things in our lives; as one God they do them. But the separate things are somehow “attributed” to each Person of the Trinity (I don’t understand this either).

These things are a Mystery, so we can’t really expect to “straighten out everything” in our minds. But (as the others said) a good book such as Frank Sheed’s would do much more to explain what we can understand than I have!

 

[porthos11]

First of all, since we are talking about the nature of God himself, we are always bound to comeup short.

An overwhelming majority of Christians believe in the trinity. I believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit equally make up God.

Yet, I’m confused, because Jesus said things like “I must pray to my father,” and “My father is pleased.”

I simply take it this way. It clearly shows that Jesus and the Father are different Persons.

But at the same time he said, “If you have seen me, you have seen my Father.”

Right. Taken to mean that they share the same nature (i.e. divine) or substance.

**I still believe that the Trinity is the most confusing topic in all of Christianity. The human mind cannot even comprehend it. But some of you may be able to help a little.
**
Start from the beginning because I really don’t understand this.

Let’s take it in a few simple steps. First see my disclaimer above.

1. Clearly God is Father. Jesus says so, and the Old Testament says so. No problem there.
2. Jesus claimed to be God (e.g. if you have seen me, you have seen the Father; before Abraham was, I AM). John 1:1 identifies Jesus as the Word as with God and AS God.
3. Yet Jesus referred to his Father has having sent him, and he prayed to the Father, and that the Father’s will be done, not his. So clearly, Jesus and the Father were two distinct persons.
4. But the shema, and several other OT passages claim that there is only one God, and Jesus confirmed that (by reciting the Shema himself.) Therefore, there is only one God.
5. The Holy Spirit commanded (e.g. set apart Barnabas and Saul for me), and can be grieved and lied to (see Acts 5). Clearly, the Holy Spirit is self-identifying, and has a will (i.e. by commanding). Therefore, the Holy Spirit is clearly a Person.
6. St. Peter said (Acts 5) that lying to the Holy Spirit is lying to God. He also raised Jesus from the dead (but so did Jesus himself and the Father), something only God can do. He is everlasting (Heb 9), and omnipresent (Ps. 139), which are attributes of God alone. This means the Holy Spirit is both a Person and God.
7. But according to the Shema again, which Jesus reinforced, there is only one God.

Mystery? Yes. But the Bible clearly states this. Exactly how it is, we will never fully understand until the Beatific Vision, but from the Bible, it’s clearly there.

 

[marymol]

Along with the many good points in the above posts, what could also help is to try to see the constant ’ Oneness’ between the Three Persons , as symbolised by the Dove … and the wings that in our internet age often get depicted , as moving… back and forth …

Even we humans that are made in His image are made of atoms , in constant motion …

Love and communication …Father to Son to The Father , in The Spirit …

Blessings !

 

[nkbeth]

Homerun40968;3091090:

… Yet, I’m confused, because Jesus said things like "I must pray to my father,

" and “My father is pleased.”

I simply take it this way. It clearly shows that Jesus and the Father are different Persons.

But at the same time he said, “If you have seen me, you have seen my Father.”

Right. Taken to mean that they share the same nature (i.e. divine) or substance.

Yes, this is good (as was the rest of your post). Jesus is a different Person than the Father, and they both share the same Divine nature (or substance).

But do you agree that these words also show that Jesus shares our human nature too? He is both God and man. The Second Divine Person of the Trinity became man, without in any way altering or diminishing His Divinity.

Here are two other quotes that show not only that Jesus is a different person than His Father, but also that Jesus is both God and Man:

John 10 30 …I and the Father are one.
John 14 28 …the Father is greater than I.

The Blessed Trinity all by itself is the greatest Mystery of all.
But the Incarnation (God becoming man) is a Mystery that God gave US, to join US to the Trinity in an unfathomable way through Our Lord Jesus Christ.

But Christmas (and the rest of Jesus’ life) tells the story better than anyone can…

 

[Alexius]

I would add that the water-ice-steam analogy is close, but it is a little off. For instance, water cannot remain in all three states at the same time without the other two (at the very least)diminishing. In most cases, water will either become steam or it will become ice. To hold this view of God is to fall into semi-Sabellianism (semi-Modalism). That would entail falling further into Patripassionism, where God the Father is basically crucified because he is the same person as the Son and the Holy Spirit. God however, remains Father, Son and Holy Spirit at all times.

One must be careful as anti-Trinitarians love to use this against Christians. They will say that if Jesus is God, why did he talk to the “Father–” implying one person. Jesus would be talking to Himself, but it makes more sense when we understand that Jesus was fully human and would communicate with the Father like all humans. He also did so to show us how to pray, but that is secondary.

Finally, I would add that one MAY carefully look past the language and look to the idea. The point that is made by such terms as “persons,” “essence,” “substance,” etc., is that of how God is one and three (Triune). These terms are used to distinguish heresy from orthodoxy. By saying that God is one (essence), we acknowledge the truth of monotheism and the roots found in Old Testament. This is against those who would say that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three gods (tritheism).

That they are equal in essence and each fully God is against those who would say that one (such as Christ) is less divine, or inferior in divine nature, than another (Arianism, semi-Arianism, etc.). That we acknowledge Christ as the second “person” AND fully human (+the previous statements) is to say that it was God who was on the cross and not a mirage or Gnostic vision.

Also, we acknowledge His incarnation because He was God even before birth (Adoptionism, Nestorianism, etc.). We say that Christ is a separate person than Father, not to confuse, but to say that Christ is not a third god, nor is he the same person as the Father. To say he is the same person is to say the Father died (and Jesus would be talking to Himself in prayer) and to say that he was another deity would be against the witness of Scripture and human reason.

The key revolves around “origin” and “personhood,” especially the way in which God is three-in-one and how God remains simultaneously one, without being separated. Understand the reason and logic behind the philosophical language and you will understand the truth and message of the Trinity. That is what kept me from becoming a Muslim (and I came mighty close). I apologize for the length of this post, but I Hope this helps a bit…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[epostle]

In seeking to understand the traditional family, Christians should keep in mind that not only are individual persons created in the image of God, but so is the family itself. The human family is the closest analogy that mankind will ever come to concretely understanding the Blessed Trinity.

The creeds teach that while there is one God, He exists in three distinct persons. The bible, on the other hand, reveals that man is made in the ‘image of God’. From these two truths, therefore, we can acknowledge that the complete image of God is found in the Triune understanding of Him.

This understanding of His Triune nature is reflected by the human family whose personal relationships approach the likeness of the Trinity.
There are multiple demonstrations of this truth.

Consider the unity of the Trinity which is reflected in the unity of the family. Or the “family of persons” which is found in both. The persons of the Trinity share the 'same substance ’ while a human family becomes one flesh: wife with husband and parents with children.

There is also another element in the Trinity that lends itself to human likeness. The Nicene Creed professes this about the Trinity: “We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life who proceeds from the Father and the Son.”

In Catholic theology, the Holy Spirit is said to proceed from the will of both the Father and the Son, or in other words, through the activity which they engage in, otherwise known as “love”.

The Holy Spirit is poured forth through the exchange of love between the Father and the Son. This is why perhaps Jesus says to the Apostles: " Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you." (John 16:7)

In the eternal economy of the Trinity, therefore, a person ‘proceeds’ from the love between two other persons. And so, the Holy Spirit is love ‘proceeding’ or ‘coming from’ the first two persons of the Blessed Trinity.

The human family has a rather striking parallel to this dynamic. The ultimate act of intimacy in a marriage mirrors the eternal exchange of love between the first two persons of the Trinity.

And like the eternal or continual procession of the Holy Spirit in the Trinity, the act of love between a man and a woman causes a ‘procession’ of another human person (i.e. the birth of a child).

catholic-legate.com/articles/antitrinity.html

Merry Christmas!

 

[jcrichton]

An overwhelming majority of Christians believe in the trinity. I believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit equally make up God.

Yet, I’m confused, because Jesus said things like “I must pray to my father,” and “My father is pleased.”

But at the same time he said, “If you have seen me, you have seen my Father.”

**I still believe that the Trinity is the most confusing topic in all of Christianity. The human mind cannot even comprehend it. But some of you may be able to help a little.
**
Start from the beginning because I really don’t understand this.

***Hi, Homerun!

This mystery will only be revealed at the end of times… for now: Faith and humility…

Yahweh chose to reveal Himself as three distinct Persons but One God. My personal view is that Yahweh God revealed Himself as such in order to make it easier for our human understanding.

In the Old Testament He reveals Himself as Yahweh, God, Lord, I Am (amongst other names/titles). When He dealt directly with the people of Israel, Yahweh was their protector and benefator, and their Lord and Father. In this intimate relationship He cared for Israel almost exclusively.

Yet, even during thi era Jesus and the Holy Spirit were hidden among the Scriptures (the reason why Jesus stated that He was never alone). Two very specific revelations are made in the New Testament that allows us to know this:

1. Paul tells us that Jesus was the Rock that followed Israel in the desert and suplied the people with living water, and
2. The New Testament reveals that it was the Holy Spirit that inspired the prophets and several statements which the Old Testament atributes to Yahweh are said to be made by the Holy Spirit.

The best passages for understanding that God is Triune is found in St. John 14 through 16 where Jesus tells us that if we Love Him we would keep His Word (Commandments) and that we will be Loved by the Father and that He and the Father will dwell in us. And He also promises that the other Paraclete (the Holy Spirit) will come to His disciples and dwell in them.

Among other revelations there’s one which I find most interesting: the Creator! Yahweh is said to be the only Creator; The Holy Spirit is said to be the Creator; Christ Jesus is said to be the One who Created everything that exists and that nothing that exists was not Created by Him!

When we read Isaiah 43:10-13 we are made aware that Yahweh is only One God; when Jesus declares that He is the I Am or the Alpha and Omega, He is tellings us that He is the One God; when Jesus transposes Yahweh’s authority to the Holy Spirit (blasming against the Holy Spirit) He is telling us that the Holy Spirit is the One God.

Paul emobodies the Triune God in 1 Corinthians 12–specially verse 3:

Because of that, I want to make it quite clear to you that no one who says ‘A course on Jesus’ can be speaking in the Spirit of God, and nobody is able to say, ‘Jesus is Lord’ except in the Holy Spirit.

The reason why Jesus prayed to the Father and made certain statements that seem to be contrary to the fact that He is God is that Jesus Christ as man ( the Son of man; the Lamb of God) did not come to reveal all of God’s Mysteries. He came as our Savior to rescue us from death: As the Son of man He taught us to obey the Father and He revealed that which was necessary for us to walk in the Light ("…I did not come to abolish the Law but to give it fulfillment…"); as the Lamb of God He redeemed us in His flesh.

If you desire a list of Biblical passages on the Trinity send me a private message–I don’t want to simply post a litany of Scriptures!

Maran atha!

Angel***