Clarifying Baptism and Confirmation

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Trying to figure out something.

The Sacrament of Baptism, Eucharist, and Confirmation are the Rites for Initiation.

I’m just wondering if being baptized invokes water and spirit. Is the spirit the words of saying “I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”?

Or is baptism of the spirit is actually the sacrament of confirmation?

I’m pretty sure it’s not the case where Baptism is “incomplete” without confirmation, but then what does confirmation do? In the Catechism, it says to perfect our Baptism, so does that imply that our initial baptisms are imperfect until Confirmation?
 
Following this out of interest. Especially in light of the separation of the sacraments of initiation which was not always the case.
 
No, baptism does it all. It’s not deficient, and is the most important sacrament (the gateway sacrament).

Confirmation seals the confirmandi with specific gifts of the Holy Spirit for another purpose - to witness to the Gospel.

Baptism changes the soul with an indelible mark - you are now a son or daughter of the Most High God, and a member of Christ’s body.

Confirmation changes the soul again, with the gifts to help in evangelizing the world.

Holy Orders changes the soul again, with specific sacred power given to the ordinandi in three grades (diaconate, presbyterate and episcopate).

Thus, a bishop has received 5 indelible, irreversible, marks on his soul - all for specific purposes. None of the sacraments are repeated (orders is one sacrament which may be given in three “ranks”).

Deacon Christopher
 
Simply put: Baptism makes you a part of the group. Confirmation makes you a leader of the group.
 
HeDa said:
Simply put: Baptism makes you a part of the group. Confirmation makes you a leader of the group.
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Really? So in a Church full of leaders of the group who is the leader?
 
Thanks. Actually, I should have stated my original intention for asking.

I’m getting all the information I can about the Sacrament of Confirmation to talk to the denominations that follow Luther’s “2 Sacrament” belief.
 
There are leaders on different levels like parents in a family, those teaching the faith to others, pastor in a parish, bishops for a diocese.
 
I think it’s a pretty poor analogy. It isn’t what I’d tell a group of candidates.
 
rightness said:
I’m getting all the information I can about the Sacrament of Confirmation to talk to the denominations that follow Luther’s “2 Sacrament” belief.
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In that context, you should talk about the ambiguity around Confirmation and ask for their opinions. Depending on who it is, they may still have a form of Confirmation which is thought of as an adolescent rite of passage. They may have made Baptism their adolescent rite of Pasage.

More challenging, talk about the idea of “christening.” One of the core ideas of Confirmation is of being anointed as Jesus was the Anointed. That rests primarily in the anointing after baptism for infants, but that anointing is dropped for adult initiations. The single anointing if Confirmation of an adult “configures them more closely” to Christ the Anointed One. Is this a symbol they would reject or embrace? Apart from issues of sacrament or nonsacrament, what is the relation of anointing to Anointed one?
 
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Dovekin said:
In that context, you should talk about the ambiguity around Confirmation and ask for their opinions. Depending on who it is, they may still have a form of Confirmation which is thought of as an adolescent rite of passage. They may have made Baptism their adolescent rite of Pasage.

More challenging, talk about the idea of “christening.” One of the core ideas of Confirmation is of being anointed as Jesus was the Anointed. That rests primarily in the anointing after baptism for infants, but that anointing is dropped for adult initiations. The single anointing if Confirmation of an adult “configures them more closely” to Christ the Anointed One. Is this a symbol they would reject or embrace? Apart from issues of sacrament or nonsacrament, what is the relation of anointing to Anointed one?
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Yeah, I just needed to clarify that the Spirit part of “Water and Spirit” isn’t the Sacrament of Confirmation, but the Sacrament of Confirmation is another invoking of the Holy Spirit.

I’m just tackling the Anglican Sacramental theology where 2 Sacraments are “instituted by Christ” and the other 5 are not, but considered Sacramental Rites, whatever that means. Surely, it’s influenced by Martin Luther, and I already know ways to argue away the “Sacrament of the Gospel” belief.
 
Lampe’s The Seal of the Spirit is the standard evangelical Anglican theology of baptism/confirmation, if you just want to rehash tired arguments.

At the baptism of Jesus in Mark 1, the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove descended on Jesus. That should reassure you that the Spirit accompanies Baptism. I would be more worried about:
John answered them all, saying, “I am baptizing you with water, but one mightier than I is coming. I am not worthy to loosen the thongs of his sandals. He will baptize you with the holy Spirit and fire.”
Luke 3:16
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As an alllusion to Pentecost, that gives you an entry into what we believe about Confirmation.
 
But John’s baptism was with water. It wasn’t until later that the sacrament was established. John’s baptism was not wholly salvific and is completely different than sacramental baptism. Obviously the CC believes in the sacrament of baptism for all. I was baptized Anglican and confirmed Catholic. But my baptism even not in the Catholic Church was complete and whole.
 
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John’s baptism is the baptism Jesus received, which because Jesus was there gave it the added significance of the Holy Spirit. (It comes a few verses after the passage I quoted.) The baptism Jesus gives, in fire and Spirit, seems to be something beyond the one John gives to Jesus.

It is not the only passage that hints at baptism by water as not enough. If you can reconcile it with baptism is all there is, great. I am just trying to give some ideas.
 
Dovekin said:
Lampe’s The Seal of the Spirit is the standard evangelical Anglican theology of baptism/confirmation, if you just want to rehash tired arguments.

At the baptism of Jesus in Mark 1, the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove descended on Jesus. That should reassure you that the Spirit accompanies Baptism. I would be more worried about:
John answered them all, saying, “I am baptizing you with water, but one mightier than I is coming. I am not worthy to loosen the thongs of his sandals. He will baptize you with the holy Spirit and fire.”
Luke 3:16
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Yeah, I was already firmly sure that Pentecost is our foundation of the Sacrament of Confirmation.

Not only did the Spirit descend on Jesus, which I knew, and also John the Baptists words, but there is also Noah’s Ark, baptized by water of the floods and a dove descending, and then the Exodus baptized by the parting of the Red Sea and led by the Pillar of Fire representing the Spirit.

It’s just confusing as to why anyone could call the Sacrament of Confirmation, and the four other Sacraments, as “corrupt” as I am starting to find in different Christian sacramental theologies.
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Baptism is primarily a new birth: dying to sin (particularly the Fall of Adam and Eve), and becoming newly alive in Jesus.

Confirmation is about strengthening us in our trust in God and making us full of the Holy Spirit and His gifts; and hence better able to testify to Christ despite martyrdom. It also strengthens and toughens us for spiritual warfare, and for sufferings and insults received from people who hate the Gospel. (Which is one reason the bishop used to slap you on the cheek, after the laying on of hands.) It makes one fully a Temple of the Holy Spirit, but it also makes one a soldier of Christ.

The bishop also used to give you the kiss of peace after slapping you, to signify that you have also received “the peace beyond all understanding.” But now he usually just shakes hands, and one is not told that it is even part of the rite.
 
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The precise concept of “Seven Sacraments” dates too around the 11th century. People had proposed 10 or 2 or 3. That discussion did not end until Trent canonized the number 7. And continued where Trent lacked authority. The following is one of Calvin’s mellower critiques of chrism.
There are other things which possibly may be less open to reproof, which however are not to be excused : such as the ceremony of chrism and unction. The chrism has been invented out of a frivolous humour by those who, not content with the institution of Jesus Christ, desired to counterfeit the Holy Spirit by a new sign, as if water were not sufficient for the purpose. What they call extreme unction, has been retained by the inconsiderate zeal of those, who have wished to follow the apostles without being gifted as they were. When the apostles used oil in the case of the sick, it was for the heal ing of them miraculously. Now, when the gift of miracles has ceased, the figure ought no longer to be employed. Wherefore, it would be much better that these things should be pruned away, so that you might have nothing which is not conform to the word of God, and serviceable for the edification of the Church.
John Calvin to Edward Seymour, “The Protector Somerset” (letter 229)
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rightness said:
Thanks. Actually, I should have stated my original intention for asking.

I’m getting all the information I can about the Sacrament of Confirmation to talk to the denominations that follow Luther’s “2 Sacrament” belief.
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In that case, you might want to get some Scripture to illustrate the difference.
Trying to figure out something.

The Sacrament of Baptism, Eucharist, and Confirmation are the Rites for Initiation.

I’m just wondering if being baptized invokes water and spirit. Is the spirit the words of saying “I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”?
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Being baptized by water “and the word” invokes the Spirit.

Ephesians 5:26 to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word,
Or is baptism of the spirit is actually the sacrament of confirmation?
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All the Sacraments are infusions of the Spirit. This is why, before the term “Sacraments” was coined, St. Paul called the Sacraments, “baptisms”.

Hebrews 6 Therefore, let us leave behind the basic teaching about Christ and advance to maturity, without laying the foundation all over again: repentance from dead works and faith in God, instruction about baptisms and laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. And we shall do this, if only God permits. …

cont’d
 
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