Clarifying the priority list of God, Spouse, Children

[Psalm30]

First, I think a very small percentage of Catholic divorces are due to convicted abusive.

Unless there are actual statistics to review, neither you nor I know that for sure.

I think discipline for crimes against the Church law should be enforced! Why do they rely on the State to do that, but not do it themselves?

Give penance of disqualified membership for certain periods! Admonish and refuse Eucharist until Catholic counseling and therapy is followed through by mandate, and specialists report progress.

All I will say to this is that while the Church may have indeed become too lenient in regard to the permanence of marriage, I think you may have gone to the other extreme. There are a lot of people in difficult situations who need compassion and understanding rather than judgement and punishment.

 

[Ammi]

Ammi:

First, I think a very small percentage of Catholic divorces are due to convicted abusive.

Unless there are actual statistics to review, neither you nor I know that for sure.

I think discipline for crimes against the Church law should be enforced! Why do they rely on the State to do that, but not do it themselves?

Give penance of disqualified membership for certain periods! Admonish and refuse Eucharist until Catholic counseling and therapy is followed through by mandate, and specialists report progress.

All I will say to this is that while the Church may have indeed become too lenient in regard to the permanence of marriage, I think you may have gone to the other extreme. There are a lot of people in difficult situations who need compassion and understanding rather than judgement and punishment.

Those causing strife and discord through sins should not be divorced, but disciplined. What I am proposing is actually more compassionate than what is being practiced.

We need to separate from the State! Discipline and correct our own, within the Church. We have orders for single men and women, with rules, but our Church has become lawless. We need order and fast!

I dont believe it will happen. But maybe an order for married families to join, within the Church?

 

[Psalm30]

Those causing strife and discord through sins should not be divorced, but disciplined.

It would be nice if it were that simple, but sadly it isn’t. I’m not sure what sort of discipline you have in mind, but if you’re dealing with a narcissist or even just a flat-out mean person, they’ll probably just rebel against the discipline, leave the Church and join a religion that allows divorce.

 

[Ammi]

Why should that stop the Church from disciplining? That is a very bad way to handle problems. To just say, “My children wont listen anyway, and they will leave home, so we tolerate whatever they do.”

 

[Ammi]

Discipline should be periods of restriction from Eucharist, WHILE a mandated period of counseling, therapy and rehabilitation is followed thru. And I mean Catholic based counselling and specialists. Maybe community service too!

Their innocent spouse can receive aid from the Church while the abuser is receiving help healing through therapy and education.

 

[Psalm30]

Why should that stop the Church from disciplining? That is a very bad way to handle problems. To just say, “My children wont listen anyway, and they will leave home, so we tolerate whatever they do.”

I suppose you find it better to drive people away from the Church rather than keep them here, even if they are not adhering to all the rules.

I simply think there is a middle ground between what the Church is doing now and what you are suggesting.

 

[Psalm30]

Discipline should be periods of restriction from Eucharist, WHILE a mandated period of counseling, therapy and rehabilitation is followed thru. And I mean Catholic based counselling and specialists. Maybe community service too!

Their innocent spouse can receive aid from the Church while the abuser is receiving help healing through therapy and education.

And if this doesn’t work, then what?

 

[Ammi]

I’m not saying drive them away! Actually I’m saying the opposite. I’m saying keep them in the Church, while mandating discipline, counselling, community service, etc.

 

[Ammi]

And if this doesn’t work, then what?

Then they are not to be readmitted into the life of the Church.

1 Corinthians 5

God judges those out side. “Drive out the wicked person from among you.”

 

[Psalm30]

I’m not saying drive them away! Actually I’m saying the opposite. I’m saying keep them in the Church, while mandating discipline, counselling, community service, etc.

That might work. But it could also make a person say, “I’m not putting up with this, I’ll just find a new religion!” Honestly, many people leave the Church over this very issue already.

Then they are not to be readmitted into the life of the Church.

And get divorced anyway…

 

[Ammi]

That might work. But it could also make a person say, “I’m not putting up with this, I’ll just find a new religion!” Honestly, many people leave the Church over this very issue already.

We are too worried people will leave, so we accept wrong behavior and its creating a dysfunctional Church.

And get divorced anyway…

In the world. We dont worry about the world’s ways.

1 Corinthians 6

When one of you has a grievance against a brother, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints? Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, matters pertaining to this life! If then you have such cases, why do you lay them before those who are least esteemed by the church? I say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no man among you wise enough to decide between members of the brotherhood, but brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers?

To have lawsuits at all with one another is defeat for you. Why not rather suffer wrong? Why not rather be defrauded? But you yourselves wrong and defraud, and that even your own brethren.

 

[Elf01]

Discipline should be periods of restriction from Eucharist, WHILE a mandated period of counseling, therapy and rehabilitation is followed thru. And I mean Catholic based counselling and specialists. Maybe community service too!

It was apparently tried with abusive priests and we can see the results.

 

[Psalm30]

Discipline should be periods of restriction from Eucharist, WHILE a mandated period of counseling, therapy and rehabilitation is followed thru. And I mean Catholic based counselling and specialists. Maybe community service too!

The problem is that this may work for some people, but for others it will have no meaning. Kind of like punishing a child by not allowing them to watch a TV show they have no interest in anyway. Keep using that TV show as punishment and the kid will continue to misbehave. If a person doesn’t care about the Eucharist and is willing to go through the motions of community service and counseling (and abusers/narcissists are very good at putting on friendly faces for the outside world while acting crazy at home), nothing will change. It will only perpetuate the problem.

 

[Ammi]

Ammi:

Discipline should be periods of restriction from Eucharist, WHILE a mandated period of counseling, therapy and rehabilitation is followed thru. And I mean Catholic based counselling and specialists. Maybe community service too!

It was apparently tried with abusive priests and we can see the results.

No it wasn’t. Abusive priests were shifted around. Completely wrong and different.

Actually the way the Church handled sexual abuse by priests is the opposite of what I’m suggesting! They (authorities) were passive and manipulative, secret and undisciplined. A priest who sexually assaults a child should be defrocked first offense, and admitted into (name removed by moderator)atient therapy.

 

[Ammi]

Ammi:

Discipline should be periods of restriction from Eucharist, WHILE a mandated period of counseling, therapy and rehabilitation is followed thru. And I mean Catholic based counselling and specialists. Maybe community service too!

The problem is that this may work for some people, but for others it will have no meaning. Kind of like punishing a child by not allowing them to watch a TV show they have no interest in anyway. Keep using that TV show as punishment and the kid will continue to misbehave. If a person doesn’t care about the Eucharist and is willing to go through the motions of community service and counseling (and abusers/narcissists are very good at putting on friendly faces for the outside world while acting crazy at home), nothing will change. It will only perpetuate the problem.

If the behavior doesnt change. Then they are not permitted into the life of the Church.

Btw, I am not opposed to anything in canon law regarding family matters. The section on separation of spouses is very good! My point, is that it is not followed thru with. It should be read to couples, and used as a guideline for counseling.