Classical Mass Compositions in Vernacular

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joshrp

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Hi,

I’ve been listening to some Latin Masses by Classical composers. I think they are very reverent. The only problem I have with Classical music is that I cannot think of any composers whose native language was English. What if we had Classical Mass music in the vernacular. Most of the hymns in the hymnals are just boring to me. I think that the music of the Latin masses are very reverent and that is why a lot of people love that Mass. The polyphony and counterpoint is a rich way to worship God in song.

What do other people think of this? I’d be willing to educate myself in how to compose English Classical musical compositions for Masses. I am taking some music courses this fall in college.

Joshua
 
joshrp said:
Hi,

I’ve been listening to some Latin Masses by Classical composers. I think they are very reverent. The only problem I have with Classical music is that I cannot think of any composers whose native language was English.
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What’s wrong with having it in Latin? Or German or Italian or Polish, for that matter, if that’s the way it was written? An Italian opera just is no where the same if it’s translated. Much is lost in translation, but if you wish to compose in English from scratch as Handel did, go for it. You don’t have to be a native English speaker.
 
English Catholic liturgical music is extremely rare before Vatican II, but there’s a ton of Anglican stuff out there. Try Charles Villiers Stanford and T. Tertius Noble, and remember that Anglicans call their mass a “communion service” if you want to look up other composers. And if you’re looking for hyms, other paraliturgical, or just plain religious music, don’t forget Handel, Purcell, Byrd and Tallis. That should get you started.
 
I’m with you. I thought the translation of the Mass into English would be accompanied in about ten years by many serious compositions which would knock us off our feet.

Wrong.

We instead got hootenany Masses, guitar Masses, and piano Masses. It seemed that the music was reoriented from praising God to killing time and distracting people from how boring the Mass was to many people.

In European countries, Papal Masses seem to be very well composed, but when we had our chance, when Benedict XVI came to the U.S., the music at the Mass in Yankee Stadium was generally apalling to me. It was embarrassing.

the music at St. Patrick Cathedral in New York was very well done, I hasten to add. I was overjoyed about how much effort they put into the Mass and how very well it was done. At St. Patrick’s though, I’ve seen processions with hundreds of priests and bishops that seem to be WAY to lengthy to be meaningful. I mean, it takes a half-hour for all those priests to process in.

With all the priests and bishops in this country, with all the CAtholic colleges and universities, with all the musicians in this country, etc. etc., you think there would be some stunning compositions. But, I don’t see it. I think it is a product of the priests sex scandals that people are just not trying as much as they should.

For some time, there was a cable channel that carried the Sunday Mass from the Sacred Heart Cathedral at the U. of Notre Dame. The music was probably better than it sounded on TV (which wasn’t such good audio).

Please, somebody, tell me I’m wrong and there is good Mass music out there.
 
DianaCC said:
English Catholic liturgical music is extremely rare before Vatican II, but there’s a ton of Anglican stuff out there. Try Charles Villiers Stanford and T. Tertius Noble, and remember that Anglicans call their mass a “communion service” if you want to look up other composers. And if you’re looking for hyms, other paraliturgical, or just plain religious music, don’t forget Handel, Purcell, Byrd and Tallis. That should get you started.
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I digress! Before the Protestant Revolt hit England, there was already a rich heritage of liturgical music within the Sarum rite and York use. One of my favourite Catholic hymns from 15th century England (and a staple of modern High Church Anglicanism) is Adam lay ybounden. While it will take a bit of searching ( and distinguishing the English Catholic hymns from the Anglican hymns of the 16th century), I’m sure you will find many liturgical jewels!

Also Tallis was a Catholic (much of his work under Henry VIII was dedicated to the Virgin Mary), just ignore (for purposes of worship) the hymns he wrote for Elizabeth I and some of those under Edward VI and you’ll be fine!

youtube.com/watch?v=ORTbT-MYLHk&feature=related
 
Yes, but the Sarum and York liturgies were done in Latin, and the OP was asking for among other things the ordinaries, viz. Lord have Mercy-Glory to God-We Believe-Holy Holy Holy-Blessed is He, in English.
 
DianaCC said:
Yes, but the Sarum and York liturgies were done in Latin, and the OP was asking for among other things the ordinaries, viz. Lord have Mercy-Glory to God-We Believe-Holy Holy Holy-Blessed is He, in English.
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Yes the actual Liturgy was in Latin. But there were still venacular hymns composed in Middle English.
 
I might get boo’d but I like the music in the original languages. I think sometimes lyrics get in the way… its a chance to hear the counterpoint of harmonies, a choir as an instrument that can be so incredibly moving.

I usually listen to Sacred Treasures III when meditating or if I can’t fall asleep. Especially track 11, Praise the Lord O My Soul (Greek Chant), which I find so piercing in its beauty. If it were in English I would be trying to hear what was said, as communication, not as music. (And although I read Koine, it is sadly with the western pronunciation, so this version of a Greek chant as few words I can recognize. I don’t even try, I just drown in the music that feels so sublime.)

I guess the only other parallel I could offer is how the staging of opera can sometimes ruin that opera performance, when flash and glitz distracts the heart and ear, and the eye and brain takes over.
 
joshrp said:
Hi,

I’ve been listening to some Latin Masses by Classical composers. I think they are very reverent. The only problem I have with Classical music is that I cannot think of any composers whose native language was English. What if we had Classical Mass music in the vernacular. Most of the hymns in the hymnals are just boring to me. I think that the music of the Latin masses are very reverent and that is why a lot of people love that Mass. The polyphony and counterpoint is a rich way to worship God in song.

What do other people think of this? I’d be willing to educate myself in how to compose English Classical musical compositions for Masses. I am taking some music courses this fall in college.

Joshua
Click to expand...
For years, English was not used during high Mass (when polyphonic Mass settings should be used, if Gregorian chant is not used). Ireland, as well as the United States, produced many hymns in English (which would’ve been appropriate for low Masses). Now, it is more acceptable to use English polyphonic works in Mass, so there are modern Choral Mass settings and motets available in English. If you want something traditional, but English, you’ll probably have to look in the music written for Anglican churches. England produced many composers who wrote for the Catholic liturgy, but their music was written in Latin.
 
Those who make their living as composers have to spend most of their time writing what sells. They have to make a living and support themselves and their families.

If classical Mass compositions in the vernacular were marketable and profitable, composers would write them.

The conclusion is obvious. The demand is not there. Perhaps this will change in the future, but perhaps not. I’m sorry, OP and others.
 
Crumpy said:
At St. Patrick’s though, I’ve seen processions with hundreds of priests and bishops that seem to be WAY to lengthy to be meaningful. I mean, it takes a half-hour for all those priests to process in.
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Wow, I cannot believe that someone feels that way. How sad.
 
Crumpy said:
At St. Patrick’s though, I’ve seen processions with hundreds of priests and bishops that seem to be WAY to lengthy to be meaningful. I mean, it takes a half-hour for all those priests to process in.
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You’re talking about St. Patrick’s Cathedral. It is the most famous Cathedral in the United States, and it is in a very large, and (historically) very Catholic city. Clergy go there from all over, so they are likely to have long processions- especially for the more prominent liturgies such as Christmas and Easter. I would not say it is too lengthy to be meaningful. It is a beautiful symbol of unity among Catholics and among clergy for so many people to come together like that. It also gives the congregation plenty of time to thank God for all those clergymen, and to pray for more. I hope someday the processions take an hour, or more- if it means that there are enough priests to go around that all the ones there were able to take time out of there lives to go through all of that.
Crumpy said:
With all the priests and bishops in this country, with all the CAtholic colleges and universities, with all the musicians in this country, etc. etc., you think there would be some stunning compositions. But, I don’t see it. I think it is a product of the priests sex scandals that people are just not trying as much as they should.

Please, somebody, tell me I’m wrong and there is good Mass music out there.
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Composers will write what they are paid to write. There are plenty of composers out there, and many of them write Masses and Motets (not because of their religious devotion, but because it is very common for secular choirs to perform sacred choral music to appreciate and share the music itself). It is a shame that the composers who write for the Church have been paid to write trash- they are capable of much better, and I personally have a hard time understanding how musicians could sell themselves out so readily.
 
A parish I used to sing with in choir often did the Adrian Batten Short Communion Mass. It is supposed to be done a capella, but can be used with organ if needed. He composed mostly during the first part of the 1600s. He was a Anglican Church composer, but some of his music can be used. That said, I believe the edition we used was edited by Proulx which you can find on GIA, so I’m not sure if it was originally in Latin and then changed to the English. Much of his sacred motets, though, are in English. It’s definitely not a difficult mass to learn for volunteer choir.

I couldn’t find the mass on Youtube, but you could get an idea of his compositional style here:

youtube.com/watch?v=-gHkKGiXeNE

You can also download some of his music as public domain here. Some of the mass is on there as well. I can’t open them up on my computer, for some reason, so I won’t be able to see what language it was originally in.
www3.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php/Adrian_Batten
 
webgecko said:
I might get boo’d but I like the music in the original languages. I think sometimes lyrics get in the way… its a chance to hear the counterpoint of harmonies, a choir as an instrument that can be so incredibly moving.

I usually listen to Sacred Treasures III when meditating or if I can’t fall asleep. Especially track 11, Praise the Lord O My Soul (Greek Chant), which I find so piercing in its beauty. If it were in English I would be trying to hear what was said, as communication, not as music. (And although I read Koine, it is sadly with the western pronunciation, so this version of a Greek chant as few words I can recognize. I don’t even try, I just drown in the music that feels so sublime.)

I guess the only other parallel I could offer is how the staging of opera can sometimes ruin that opera performance, when flash and glitz distracts the heart and ear, and the eye and brain takes over.
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I agree. How can one possibly even think of translating this counterpoint composition, for example?

youtube.com/watch?v=_NUlXtbqCmI&feature=related

Score:

www2.cpdl.org/wiki/images/1/11/Gorczycki_laetatus_sum.pdf
 
webgecko said:
I might get boo’d but I like the music in the original languages. I think sometimes lyrics get in the way… its a chance to hear the counterpoint of harmonies, a choir as an instrument that can be so incredibly moving.

I usually listen to Sacred Treasures III when meditating or if I can’t fall asleep. Especially track 11, Praise the Lord O My Soul (Greek Chant), which I find so piercing in its beauty. If it were in English I would be trying to hear what was said, as communication, not as music. (And although I read Koine, it is sadly with the western pronunciation, so this version of a Greek chant as few words I can recognize. I don’t even try, I just drown in the music that feels so sublime.)

I guess the only other parallel I could offer is how the staging of opera can sometimes ruin that opera performance, when flash and glitz distracts the heart and ear, and the eye and brain takes over.
Click to expand...
Definitely no boo-ing from me. I completely agree. Music in the original language is usually so much better than when it is translated. I have had to perform translations of operas and it really does get lost in translation. Doesn’t matter what language it’s translated in. I especially don’t like English translations because the poetry is lost and English is one of the least friendly languages to sing in - for classical singing, at least.
In emphasis of your first point, the counterpoint is something that really moves me especially when it is exquisitely accomplished. Hearing the colors of the voices for each part and then blended together is something that can be so incredibly sublime. In some ways the prayer and spirituality of the work is heard through the music more so and not actually with the words.

And you parallel with opera staging is so true. I especially don’t like it when the stage director decides to put the singer upside-down, or make him/her prance and run around. It can sometimes make you lose the integrity and beauty of the line in the music because you’re unaligned or bouncing too much. If the singer knows what he/she is singing, the drama and meaning of the music comes out automatically without all of this flitting around and extra staging. I’ve been more moved by the “park and bark” ladies and gentlemen than what I’ve seen today. BUT TOTALLY OFF TOPIC.
 
I was learning about Palestrina and his Pope Martella (sp?) Mass Monday in my Introduction to Western Classical Music course. The teacher was saying that people were writing polyphonic compositions in such a way that parishioners were focusing on and enjoying the music than understanding the words that were being prayed to God. So the Church was going to ban polyphonic music and make it so that only Gregorian chant could be used. But Palestrina talked to the Pope and said to give him one chance to compose a polyphonic Mass work that people could understand the words. She played for us some of the Kyrie Eleison which was from his “Pope Martella Mass” and it was very beautiful. I know how English is kind of an awkward language to sing, and it doesn’t sound as beautiful as Latin or Italina, which have probably the purest sounding vowels. I just figure that if we are going to have any music sung in English, we might as well have more beautiful polyphonic Catholic sacred music sung in English as well. I’ve been to Masses where the music was just so syrupy and marshmallow fluff like, and honestly to me unpleasant (I have a real sensitivity to some music, where I get physically uncomfortable hearing it, as if I am claustrophobic and in a really tight space) that I have felt so anxious and my nerves were acting up so much, that I have felt like walking out of Mass. Two Sundays ago on September 11, I heard the music minister practicing on the piano and what he was playing sounded like sappy pop-jazz style music, and before the Mass started, I just left and went home. I missed Mass that day, and had to go to confession before I could receive Holy Communion again. It’s not like a snobby "Oh this music is so bad sort of thing, it is that I literally cannot sit through it. It literally bothers my nerves. My old confessor and spiritual director told me about a child with autism who when he hears music he freaks out and starts to scream and yell. His parents have to take him to a Mass where there is no music. I myself have a form of autism called Asperger’s Syndrome. I find well composed polyphonic music very calming to my nerves, but most of the music that people play at Mass, it really physically irritates me. I literally cannot sit near it or it makes me feel like I am having a panic attack. So I think that people should be aware of this sort of thing with certain people, such as those who have autism or other neurological conditions.
 
joshrp said:
I was learning about Palestrina and his Pope Martella (sp?) Mass Monday in my Introduction to Western Classical Music course. The teacher was saying that people were writing polyphonic compositions in such a way that parishioners were focusing on and enjoying the music than understanding the words that were being prayed to God. So the Church was going to ban polyphonic music and make it so that only Gregorian chant could be used. But Palestrina talked to the Pope and said to give him one chance to compose a polyphonic Mass work that people could understand the words. She played for us some of the Kyrie Eleison which was from his “Pope Martella Mass” and it was very beautiful. I know how English is kind of an awkward language to sing, and it doesn’t sound as beautiful as Latin or Italina, which have probably the purest sounding vowels. I just figure that if we are going to have any music sung in English, we might as well have more beautiful polyphonic Catholic sacred music sung in English as well. I’ve been to Masses where the music was just so syrupy and marshmallow fluff like, and honestly to me unpleasant (I have a real sensitivity to some music, where I get physically uncomfortable hearing it, as if I am claustrophobic and in a really tight space) that I have felt so anxious and my nerves were acting up so much, that I have felt like walking out of Mass. Two Sundays ago on September 11, I heard the music minister practicing on the piano and what he was playing sounded like sappy pop-jazz style music, and before the Mass started, I just left and went home. I missed Mass that day, and had to go to confession before I could receive Holy Communion again. It’s not like a snobby "Oh this music is so bad sort of thing, it is that I literally cannot sit through it. It literally bothers my nerves. My old confessor and spiritual director told me about a child with autism who when he hears music he freaks out and starts to scream and yell. His parents have to take him to a Mass where there is no music. I myself have a form of autism called Asperger’s Syndrome. I find well composed polyphonic music very calming to my nerves, but most of the music that people play at Mass, it really physically irritates me. I literally cannot sit near it or it makes me feel like I am having a panic attack. So I think that people should be aware of this sort of thing with certain people, such as those who have autism or other neurological conditions.
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I don’t know if your class will go deeper into this, but polyphony was banned three different times by three different popes prior to Palestrina’s time. It was mainly because early polyphony was more secular in sound than what you hear today at mass. During Eleanor of Aquitaine’s time (she lived during the 1100s), her court used a lot of polyphony for secular music to which it was criticised by contemporaries as “lascivious”, immoral, inciting lust, frivolous etc. It wasn’t until Guillame de Machaut in the 1300s refined polyphony that it was finally permitted for use at mass because it sounded much less secular than how it was originally composed.

I understand your feelings of the latter part of your post. I don’t have Aspergers, nor am I autistic, but I used to also become literally sick to the point that I would almost vomit when I’d hear music like that at mass. It would also panic me. I couldn’t understand why, but it was almost like an auditory attack. I had to really work hard at preparing myself and basically ignore the music to where I blocked it out of my ears and didn’t even hear it. It has never bothered me in other spheres, but I was always able to either just leave the room, turn the knob or turn it down.

In regards to your confessor’s story regarding the child with autism, I once was hired to perform arias, solos from musicals and art songs for a birthday. The family told me ahead of time that their daughter was autistic and could not stand music and singing in general, so she might have an outburst. The mother sat with her at the top of the stairs while I performed for the group. After I was done, the family became teary-eyed and said that the child wanted to say something to me. She came down, smiling and thanked me for the beautiful music and that she loved it. They told me that they were so surprised at her reaction. It humbled me as well and my eyes filled with tears to see a family so moved and to hear that coming from the little girl. In some ways, I feel that God was using me for that particular experience… which is so incredibly humbling. It reminds you of how small you are and how easily God can give and take away gifts like that. He gave me a gift of meeting that beautiful family and that special little girl and He gave them the gift through my voice and the experience of seeing their daughter/granddaughter/niece enjoy music.
 
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