Clean-cut Christianity? The new heresy

[iloveangels]

The problem, perhaps more clearly stated, is can you have Christianity that doesn’t have historical or doctrinal content?

People have the idea now that Christianity is all about “being nice.” Can Christianity be that, and that only?

Or can Christianity be just a set of “Thou shalt nots” like the pagans, the news media and so on, think it is? [Which sort of reduces it to a political programme as the pagans, the news media and so on clearly think, and this is why they treat us like they do.]

Don’t get me wrong, Christianity contains “thou shalt nots” and it should contain them. But over and above that, is that all there is to it? Really?

 

[Qoeleth]

The problem here is the traditionalist movement and the liberal movement. Both are rooted in the Middle Class and up. They portray what I call the Mormon Catholic image. The truth is that if you ask anyone who is not a diocesan priest, but a religious sister, brother or a regular priest, we can tell you that the majority of Catholics are grubby looking, don’t have much by way of clothing, usually belong to minorities who live on the fringes of society, because of their poverty, not because of their morals.

Those of us who minister and live among them are just as unwelcome in the typical middle class Catholic community as they are.

I had the opportunity to attend a funeral of a dear friend at an SSPX chapel. I arrived in a sweaty grey clerical shirt that had stain on it and a hole on the front, with my grey jeans, and my while tab in my pocket instead of in the slot of my clerical shirt. I was bluntly told, “Father, you’re not appropriately dressed.”

First of all, I have a heart condition, leukemia and diabetes. Secondly, I’m a Franciscan of Life. We own three sets of clothes: a habit, a grey pair of jeans and a grey clerical shirt, because grey is our color, and a pair of work jeans and a t-shirt. Other than that we have three sets of underwear that we wear one, have dry one and another is in the wash.

Secondly, we have only one car for 16 of us. We cannot afford another car. Since I am the superior general, I’m not allowed to use the car. The car is for those whom I serve. As the servant of the community, I must walk, hitchhike or take public transportation, if I have the money.

That day, I waited for a bus. It was 90 degree and no bus was coming. Fearing that I would be late and miss my friend’s funeral, I began to walk the five miles. The bus finally passed and I got on for all of two miles. I then had to walk three blocks to the church. By that time, I had angina, my sugar was going crazy and I was sweating like a pig. I took off the tab on my Roman collar and slipped it into my pocket, with the intention of putting it on when I reached the chapel; but I forgot to do so. Don’t forget my clerical shirt with the stains and the hole on the front. It’s previous owner was a cigar smoker.

That was the greeting I received at this very Mormon looking Catholic chapel. I apologized for my appearance and explained that I was a Franciscan Brother of Life. That did not impress the greeter at the door, neither did the fact that I arrived when the Gospel was being read.

Those of us who are poor are not always welcome in certain Catholic circles. Yet, we make up the majority of Catholics around the world. Right now the majority of Catholics are South Americans and Africans. There are not many wealthy people among them. Even in the USA, the tide is turning. The Hispanic and Caribbean immigrants are becoming the dominant Catholic group and they are very poor. They are rarely seen in suburbia.

Is this a heresy? I wouldn’t go that far. Does it have the potential to become heresy? It certainly doe. Any form of rejection of the poor is a rejection of Christ himself.

The majority of white anglo Catholics in the USA don’t see these Catholics in their parishes. These folks can’t live in these communities. They probably don’t see too many Franciscans, Missionaries of the Poor, Little Brothers of the Good Shepherd, Missionaries of Charity or Oblates of Mary Immaculate either. We don’t go into your parishes or communities. That’s not where God wants us to be. We live in different worlds

That’s the problem, that we live in different worlds. The liberal and traditionalist Catholics are predominantly middle class and higher. They are the ones who put out these images of the “clean cut Catholic”, not because they hate the poor, but because they have not lived in poverty.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

I think you term “Mormon Catholic” is a good designation of what I was trying to describe!

And, I suppose, I wasn’t talking only of ‘economic poverty’, becuase it doesn’t ‘cost’ much to look like a Mormon. But rather exclusion, etc.

A lot of the Christian youth material also doesn’t include less-than-attractive or overweight kids either.

 

[iloveangels]

I think you term “Mormon Catholic” is a good designation of what I was trying to describe!

And, I suppose, I wasn’t talking only of ‘economic poverty’, becuase it doesn’t ‘cost’ much to look like a Mormon. But rather exclusion, etc.

A lot of the Christian youth material also doesn’t include less-than-attractive or overweight kids either.

Oh piffle. Americans are so touchy-feely. This is just one more indication that many have no idea what real grinding poverty is really like. None whatsoever.

:whackadoo:Oh, no! I need a new iphone and don’t have $100 I can throw at the phone store this week. Woe is me. I’m sooooooooooo poor. :whackadoo:
:whackadoo: And my Nikes are scuffed. My life is over. And I need a new computer. And a different car. I’m sooooooo poor :whackadoo:

Right.

At least fat kids are eating. That’s better than not having food to eat.

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

The Simpsons: Protestant vs. Catholic Heaven

 

[TrueLight]

Feel better?

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/356/christiangoth.gif

 

[JReducation]

We’re mixing up a whole bunch of issues here:

1. Attending church dressed neatly does not equal middle class or rich. All one needs to do is look in the poorer neighborhoods of NYC and see those little black ladies dressed in their nice hats and dresses on the way to church. You can get all those clothes at thrift shops. (By the way, as an aside, Br. Jr, Caribbeans tend to do very well as they are hard workers and will either become more educated than their counterparts and so earn more or work two, three, or four jobs if necessary to have that little house in suburbia. Their children are high achievers.)
2. Ripped up jeans does not equal poor. You can buy ripped jeans for $500 for a certain look.
3. Traditionalist (the CAF underdog) does not equal rich. When I look around at my parish and at the local SSPX parish, I don’t see anyone strutting around looking rich. In fact, I see plenty of people who are doing worse than me. It all depends on the neighborhood you live in.
4. Yes, your conduct should reflect your Christianity.
5. Christ came for everyone, including the rich man.
6. Being part of a subculture does not make you non Christian. However, some subcultures tend to be associated with a certain not so good lifestyle and if one is living that type of lifestyle, that lifestyle should change. Keep the purple hair and goth clothes if you want to.

It’s one thing to argue that one should be able to attend church as one wants to dress.

To say that dressing poorly is always associated with poverty is disingenuous.

I don’t think you understood what I mean or maybe I didn’t say it correctly. That’s OK. It’s not important. What is important is that Love is loved.

You may want to take a ride up to Harlem and spend a day with the Franciscans of the Renewal as they celebrate mass on the corner on a board over a drum on the street, because the rule says that they may not serve in any parish where people can afford to feed or clothe themselves, even from a thrift shop or visit us in Miami, where Br. Rich celebrates the EF on the back of a pickup truck on a corner, because our constitutions say that we will not live and work where people have any form of income. If they have no income, they have no way of sustaining a parish church either. They’re the only lay people for whom I authorize the EF mass. Those lay people who have income can drive or ride public transportation to one of the parishes that offers the EF mass every Sunday or to the cathedral, where the Archbishop celebrates it when he’s home.

Yes, the people of the Caribbean and Latin America are very resourceful and they move on to get two and three jobs to live. Once they achieve an income, they are not the poor.

At that point, they can pay for the services that the Church has to offer. They can pay the salary of priests and religious, pay for a church building or a place to worship and they can usually combine their resources to pay for things like CCD programs and youth ministry, etc. They have income. They are not the poor. We do not celebrate sacraments for them or live among them. As soon as they begin to work and earn income, the Church requires that we move away and leave them to the secular clergy and to religious who serve the middle class.

Renewal Franciscans (MFVA, CFR, FFV, FPOs, FE, FBP and OFM Caps), Missionaries of Charity, Missionaries of the Poor, Oblates of Mary Immaculate, Brothers of the Good Shepherd, Carmelites of Charity and Sisters of the Pierced Hearts are forbidden from lending any form of service to them.

Fraternally,

Br.JR, FFV

 

[M-Dent]

At a class in a government school, kids were asked, “What is a Christian?” The FIRST answers were someone who doesn’t swear and doesn’t smoke. Look at Christian youth material- neatly dressed, middle class, smiling, with just the ‘right’ smattering of non-whites. No emos, no punks, no metalheads.

Have we got away from real Christianity? .

First off, I wouldn’t base my discernment on the state of Christianity by kids comments.

Jesus came for the outcasts, the ‘losers’, the rebels.

Jesus did not come for a “social group.”

The Word became flesh for us in order to save us by reconciling us with God, who “loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins”: "the Father has sent his Son as the Savior of the world", and "he was revealed to take away sins"

CCC 457

There is no debate when it comes to the teaching on modesty ( properly and fully understood). I could fill pages with homilies, reflections or bishops letters stressing dignity, respect and the many problems of apathy and extreme informality. Its taught for good reason.

Yet let’s not confuse immodesty from poverty.

If one suffers in *poverty *-- they are to be treated the same as the man dressed in the finest of suits. Christianity has and always will teach this. It is the case in the parish I am a part of. This can be witnessed during the Holy Mass. Though most parishioners are dress quite well, some less fortunate, are dressed in layers of torn and battered clothing. Yet are very welcome and actively participate at Mass. (i.e., pray, sing, participation in Sacraments…). Some can also can find different forms of help and outreach here (i.e., food, money and clothing).

As the Holy Father often preaches we should be helping in the effort of emancipation and social inclusion of those in extreme poverty. There are many poor - who have not made a choice in marrying Lady Poverty. We should help them.

We should also help those with spiritual poverty who don’t understand human dignity, in its many forms.

 

[JReducation]

First off, I wouldn’t base my discernment on the state of Christianity by kids comments.

Jesus did not come for a “social group.”

There is no debate when it comes to the teaching on modesty ( properly and fully understood). I could fill pages with homilies, reflections or bishops letters stressing dignity, respect and the many problems of apathy and extreme informality. Its taught for good reason.

Yet let’s not confuse immodesty from poverty.

If one suffers in *poverty *-- they are to be treated the same as the man dressed in the finest of suits. Christianity has and always will teach this. It is the case in the parish I am a part of. This can be witnessed during the Holy Mass. Though most parishioners are dress quite well, some less fortunate, are dressed in layers of torn and battered clothing. Yet are very welcome and actively participate at Mass. (i.e., pray, sing, participation in Sacraments…). Some can also can find different forms of help and outreach here (i.e., food, money and clothing).

As the Holy Father often preaches we should be helping in the effort of emancipation and social inclusion of those in extreme poverty. There are many poor - who have not made a choice in marrying Lady Poverty. We should help them.

We should also help those with spiritual poverty who don’t understand human dignity, in its many forms.

You are 100% correct. There is a true difference between modesty and poverty. Here is where the imagery sometimes falls short. Often, pictures or descriptions that people use for what is considered modest clothing is clothing that is not affordable, if you have no job and no income. Even clothing from a thrift store costs money.

I read a thread on here, a long time ago, that described how wonderfully dressed the men were at a certain EF mass. They all wore dress shirts, ties and jackets. In the world I live in, the men cannot afford dress shirts, ties or jackets even from Goodwill. They have to be very practical. They get their clothes from St. Vincent de Paul Society. They have to keep it clean and in good repair, but it may be a pair of jeans and a polo, because that’s all that the St. Vincent de Paul Society had. I would certainly ask these men to dress modestly. I would not show them a picture of some chap in a tie and jacket and say “This is proper Church attire.” My men can’t afford that. They have no jobs; therefore, no income. They attend classes with our brothers and we give them coupons that they can redeem for clothes, food and other items for them and their children at one of our centers or at St. Vincent de Paul.

You are absolutely correct. Let’s not confuse modesty and poverty. They are not synonymous. Lady Gaga is not poor.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[Arizona_Mike]

I don’t think anyone begrudges a poor, unemployed person from wearing whatever they can. If one attends morning Mass, one usually sees people who are wearing what they will wear to work that day - everything from a laborer’s or craftsman’s work clothes to a businessman’s suit and tie. I doubt God minds at all.

I would object to someone who can afford to dress well who chooses to wear slovenly or immodest attire in Church out of a desire to be a bohemian. Most poor people would dress well if they could (I grew up dirt poor, always ashamed of my hand-me-down thrift shop clothes when I was a kid and a teenager - I would have been happy to wear a suit and tie if I could afford one), so it always offends me a little to see a middle-class suburban kid who adopts a pose of working class chic and buys expensive “aged” jeans. It probably shouldn’t bug me, but it does.

One’s clothing is a form of communication, so one should not dress to offend. If one is able to shower regularly and bathe (and most people who aren’t homeless can), it is appropriate to do so to preserve one’s health and avoid needlessly offending others. If one is young and likes to dress in a fashion that makes one appear to be a gang-banger, a thug, etc., one should remember that many of the older people you come in contact with (especially in church) will be a little afraid of you, which isn’t a charitable thing for you to do.

 

[Qoeleth]

First off, I wouldn’t base my discernment on the state of Christianity by kids comments.

Jesus did not come for a “social group.”

There is no debate when it comes to the teaching on modesty ( properly and fully understood). I could fill pages with homilies, reflections or bishops letters stressing dignity, respect and the many problems of apathy and extreme informality. Its taught for good reason.

Yet let’s not confuse immodesty from poverty.

If one suffers in *poverty *-- they are to be treated the same as the man dressed in the finest of suits. Christianity has and always will teach this. It is the case in the parish I am a part of. This can be witnessed during the Holy Mass. Though most parishioners are dress quite well, some less fortunate, are dressed in layers of torn and battered clothing. Yet are very welcome and actively participate at Mass. (i.e., pray, sing, participation in Sacraments…). Some can also can find different forms of help and outreach here (i.e., food, money and clothing).

As the Holy Father often preaches we should be helping in the effort of emancipation and social inclusion of those in extreme poverty. There are many poor - who have not made a choice in marrying Lady Poverty. We should help them.

We should also help those with spiritual poverty who don’t understand human dignity, in its many forms.

I am speaking about inclusion, not only of the literally ‘poor’, but also those culturally marginalised. Like punks, goths, metalheads, emos, stoners, skins, etc. As well as the cynical, the depressed, the nihilistic, the rebellious, the culturally dispossessed. Does our Church make these welcome as well?

 

[M-Dent]

I am speaking about inclusion, not only of the literally ‘poor’, but also those culturally marginalised. Like punks, goths, metalheads, emos, stoners, skins, etc. As well as the cynical, the depressed, the nihilistic, the rebellious, the culturally dispossessed. Does our Church make these welcome as well?

Yes and no.

One thing we need to keep in mind is, the Church is a supernatural organism and a human structure at the same time. Both human and divine.

The great mystery of the Incarnation may help us better reflect on this. By His nature, Jesus was born sinless. His human body, mind and soul in harmony with the Divine nature. Both distinct. Fully human. Fully God. Not an easy thing to understand.

Adam, Eve and the Virgin Mary were born free from sin by a gift of God – not by their nature. This is important to keep in mind when thinking of the mission of the Church today. Because the Catholic Church IS the mission of Jesus and the Holy Spirit today (CCC 737).

We can understand the Church as divine most especially in the sacraments (the signs and instruments by which the Holy Spirit spreads grace). It’s the normal means God offers humanity to be in communion with Him.

But it’s not always easy to see. Because the human side of the Church - made up of us members - are sinful. It can be an unwelcoming place. It can fall into political squabbles. And we need to keep in mind what WE bring to the table when we approach the Church community.

Though, we can cause great harm in our unwelcoming, confused and sometimes bitter ways, we sinful humans can’t destroy the Church. Neither can the gates of Hell.

There’s hope.

Why?

The Holy Spirit draws people in. Grace is the power that causes conversion. We humans do cooperate with grace (as God wishes) yet we do nothing on our own. Nothing.

The characteristics you mentioned (i.e., cynical, depressed, nihilistic, culturally dispossessed) all may share one thing in common, a lack of hope. This is a form of spiritual poverty.

Whether it be Mother Theresa or Pope Benedict XVI both made bold statements that Spiritual poverty is worse than material poverty. It makes sense. Because the loss of hope can lead directly to despair. Despair can lead to eternal separation from Communion with God.

I agree, we should be very very concerned about those who lack hope. How we can help depends on our role in the Church, charisms and gifts each of us are given by God.

The unique work of many of the Franciscans is of note in this area. Br Jr can share many stories I am certain. For many of us, it may seem an extreme way to live yet they do show complete trust in Divine Providence. They witness there is no loss of hope when trusting God. They believe the Gospel. Even in conditions that seem unbearable. Grace can work wonders.

 

[M-Dent]

Br. Jr.

You are 100% correct. There is a true difference between modesty and poverty. Here is where the imagery sometimes falls short. Often, pictures or descriptions that people use for what is considered modest clothing is clothing that is not affordable, if you have no job and no income. Even clothing from a thrift store costs money.

I read a thread on here, a long time ago, that described how wonderfully dressed the men were at a certain EF mass. They all wore dress shirts, ties and jackets. In the world I live in, the men cannot afford dress shirts, ties or jackets even from Goodwill. They have to be very practical. They get their clothes from St. Vincent de Paul Society. They have to keep it clean and in good repair, but it may be a pair of jeans and a polo, because that’s all that the St. Vincent de Paul Society had. I would certainly ask these men to dress modestly. I would not show them a picture of some chap in a tie and jacket and say “This is proper Church attire.” My men can’t afford that. They have no jobs; therefore, no income. They attend classes with our brothers and we give them coupons that they can redeem for clothes, food and other items for them and their children at one of our centers or at St. Vincent de Paul.

I agree. Live within your means.

I’ve spent some years at a local St. Vincent de Paul Society center and understand your point. It’s also why I encouraged others - who have the means - to give generously.

As one who had the blessing of being raised in a very large family - I learned from my parents that a youngster is to always keep in mind we need at least one clean set of clothes for Holy Mass. This was also the set of clothes I would wear to any formal event. If I were to meet the President – I would wear the clothes I wore to Mass. We were responsible to keep it in good shape. I had the fortune of six older brothers - so the hand me downs made me feel quite rich!

Some can’t afford a suit. If it’s a polo short and a dark pair of jeans - a sincere and humble person can wear them well.

As you well know, Saint Francis’ life of poverty did not exclude him noting the importance of cleanliness. He had a great sense of the Sacred, of Holiness and the respect and reverence due to the Body and Blood of our Lord. Much can still be learned from him.

 

[TrueLight]

I am speaking about inclusion, not only of the literally ‘poor’, but also those culturally marginalised. Like punks, goths, metalheads, emos, stoners, skins, etc. As well as the cynical, the depressed, the nihilistic, the rebellious, the culturally dispossessed. Does our Church make these welcome as well?

Yes, and I got right away that your question was not so much about poverty, but about the Church acknowledging alternative folks, or folks who use off-color language or dress in ways not accepted by mainstream society. Subcultures. Rebellion against the middle class (even if the rebels themselves have middle class parents).

That’s why I said we were mixing up different issues.

As an aside, I used to see this homeless guy who wore one suit every day. Maybe someone gave it to him. He picked up odd jobs like sweeping in front of businesses and in barbershops. He did all that in his one suit. He was homeless and very neat. I wonder how he’s doing.

 

[JReducation]

Br. Jr.

I agree. Live within your means.

I’ve spent some years at a local St. Vincent de Paul Society center and understand your point. It’s also why I encouraged others - who have the means - to give generously.

As one who had the blessing of being raised in a very large family - I learned from my parents that a youngster is to always keep in mind we need at least one clean set of clothes for Holy Mass. This was also the set of clothes I would wear to any formal event. If I were to meet the President – I would wear the clothes I wore to Mass. We were responsible to keep it in good shape. I had the fortune of six older brothers - so the hand me downs made me feel quite rich!

Some can’t afford a suit. If it’s a polo short and a dark pair of jeans - a sincere and humble person can wear them well.

As you well know, Saint Francis’ life of poverty did not exclude him noting the importance of cleanliness. He had a great sense of the Sacred, of Holiness and the respect and reverence due to the Body and Blood of our Lord. Much can still be learned from him.

I have always loved that document, but maybe not for the same reason as you put it up on this thread. I love it, because there are so many people who believe that prior to the revisions of the mass after Vatican II there were no abuses, because the traditional mass is abuse free. Francis lays it all out there for the diocesan clergy of his time. The abuses of the time make a clown mass look like a papal installation . . . not that I find clown masses to be appropriate, but at least they’re valid and probably licit, even though the priest looks like a fool. These abuses invalidated the mass or at best made it illegal. They were so cleverly executed that for hundreds of years the laity never noticed.

The most interesting of all the abuses was the stringing of masses, which was done up until the 1960s. Unless you were educated in a seminary, you had no idea that the priest was stringing masses or that in order to get past the rule that prohibited more than one mass per day, the priest would consecrate and not receive Holy Communion or would not consecrate, but only lift the host and chalice to give the appearance of a consecration. How those guys were not taken out and shot is a miracle in itself.

That’s why Francis writes so intensely about every detail regarding cleanliness, orderliness in the sanctuary, the solemnity of the mind, the reverence that the friars were to have for the Eucharist and why he reigned in the priests of the order by not splitting his order into two groups: Fathers and Brothers. By keeping it as one community of brothers, the priests were kept in control and the clergy abuses were minimized and often prevented completely. The priests were subject to the scrutiny of the house chapter and they still are.

The “creativity” (notice quotation marks) of those people of that time is stunning.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[M-Dent]

I have always loved that document, but maybe not for the same reason as you put it up on this thread. I love it, because there are so many people who believe that prior to the revisions of the mass after Vatican II there were no abuses

Br Jr, what I love most about the document is - it shows great reverence towards the Holy Eucharist. The Saint was not caught up in polemics. His focus was on what is important. (as he stated) “I beg you to show the greatest possible reverence and honor for the most holy Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

 

[Monty61]

Anyone who buys into that is obviously not familiar with the Apostles and the folks that Jesus hung out with in the Gospels.

Fishermen, tax collectors, revolutionaries, publicly known sinners, prostitutes, and the list can go on from there. In fact, Our Lord said, “Amen I say to you, that the publicans and the harlots shall go into the kingdom of God before you.” (Matthew 21:31)/QUOTE

Obviously Jesus associated with these people. But it’s a bit of a stretch to extrapolate and say that because Jesus was kind and forgiving to prostitutes that it’s OK for women to look like prostitutes when they go to Mass.

Mass should be about everyone focusing on Christ. If someone shows up with purple hair, torn jeans, tight clothes, flip flops, etc. knowing that it’s going to attract attention to themselves, or irritate your fellow worshippers, then they are acting with a lack of charity to those around them.

Don’t turn away a visitor because of their dress. But if you are Catholic, don’t dress in a way (either dress down or too dressed up) that takes attention away from the liturgy and puts it on yourself.

I don’t get you people on the “I’m going to dress down for Mass because Jesus loves me anyway and I like to annoy the uptight people and I want to provoke their displeasure” crusade. Get over yourselves, (Always Rejoice) Buy a pair of Dockers, some closed toe shoes, a button down shirt and wear it to Mass. If you can afford an ipod you can afford to do this.