Cleaning the Chalice

[dal11]

me and my brother were having a discussion this past week after the priest just sent all vessels to the back with the extraordinary ministers right after the last person took communion, then he sat down. this seemed odd. the alter was bare. i thought he was suppose to clean them at the alter, but i’m not sure. does anyone know the answer to this? but if you do i need documentation. Is it in the G.I.R.M. thankyou.

 

[luke2219]

The GIRM actually says that they are NOT to be cleansed at the alter They should be purified at a side table either after Communion or after Mass.

From the GIRM usccb.org/liturgy/current/chapter4.shtml#sect4

1. The sacred vessels are purified by the priest, the deacon, or an instituted acolyte after Communion or after Mass, insofar as possible at the credence table. The purification of the chalice is done with water alone or with wine and water, which is then drunk by whoever does the purification. The paten is usually wiped clean with the purificator.

From **Norms for the Distribution and Reception of Holy Communion Under Both Kinds in the Dioceses of the United States of America
usccb.org/liturgy/current/norms.shtml
**

Purification of Sacred Vessels
51. After Communion the consecrated bread that remains is to be reserved in the tabernacle. Care should be taken with any fragments remaining on the corporal or in the sacred vessels. The deacon returns to the altar with the priest and collects and consumes any remaining fragments.

1. When more of the Precious Blood remains than was necessary for Communion, and if not consumed by the bishop or priest celebrant, “the deacon immediately and reverently consumes at the altar all of the Blood of Christ which remains; he may be assisted, if needs dictate, by other deacons and priests.” (54) When there are extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion, they may consume what remains of the Precious Blood from their chalice of distribution with permission of the diocesan bishop.

1. The chalice and other vessels may be taken to a side table, where they are cleansed and arranged in the usual way. Other sacred vessels that held the Precious Blood are purified in the same way as chalices. Provided the remaining consecrated bread has been consumed or reserved and the remaining Precious Blood has been consumed, “it is permissible to leave the vessels . . . suitably covered and at a side table on a corporal, to be cleansed immediately after Mass following the dismissal of the people.” (55)

1. The Precious Blood may not be reserved, except for giving Communion to someone who is sick. Only sick people who are unable to receive Communion under the form of bread may receive it under the form of wine alone at the discretion of the priest. If not consecrated at a Mass in the presence of the sick person, the Blood of the Lord is kept in a properly covered vessel and is placed in the tabernacle after Communion. The Precious Blood should be carried to the sick in a vessel that is closed in such a way as to eliminate all danger of spilling. If some of the Precious Blood remains after the sick person has received Communion, it should be consumed by the minister, who should also see to it that the vessel is properly purified.

1. The reverence due to the Precious Blood of the Lord demands that it be fully consumed after Communion is completed and never be poured into the ground or the sacrarium.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

dal11:

me and my brother were having a discussion this past week after the priest just sent all vessels to the back with the extraordinary ministers right after the last person took communion, then he sat down. this seemed odd. the alter was bare. i thought he was suppose to clean them at the alter, but i’m not sure. does anyone know the answer to this? but if you do i need documentation. Is it in the G.I.R.M. thankyou.

He should purify them at the altar unless there is some extraordinary circumstance preventing him from doing so. Such as he cannot stand for very long because of age, is ill and must sit down, or there are an excessive number of chalices and ciboriums that would take an extreme amount of time to clean, more than say 5 minutes.

 

[travellinmike]

OK I’ll revive an old thread. I too am concerned about this part of the mass that is now missing in my current parish. After Communion the priest simply hands the chalice to the alter boy (“server”) who puts it on a side table.

I remember from my youth. the priest would eat a few remaining wafers and then wipe out the chalice, there was a very precise folding of the cloth used to do this. Then there was what looked like a thick piece of cardboard (I’m sure it wasn’t) that was placed over the Chalice, then the folded cloth laid on top and the whole thing covered with a nicely embroidered cloth that corresponded to the color of the liturgical season. this was then removed from the alter and at that point the tabernacle doors were closed and we would sit down.

This is all from memory of mass that I remember from the early 80’s. I probably have a few things incorrect. Alot has changed since then and in the months since my return to the church, I’ve been constantly challenged to have an open mind. If it’s supposed to be a universal church why is everything changing?

Mike

 

[JimG]

travellinmike:

OK I’ll revive an old thread. I too am concerned about this part of the mass that is now missing in my current parish. After Communion the priest simply hands the chalice to the alter boy (“server”) who puts it on a side table.

I remember from my youth. the priest would eat a few remaining wafers and then wipe out the chalice, there was a very precise folding of the cloth used to do this. Then there was what looked like a thick piece of cardboard (I’m sure it wasn’t) that was placed over the Chalice, then the folded cloth laid on top and the whole thing covered with a nicely embroidered cloth that corresponded to the color of the liturgical season. this was then removed from the alter and at that point the tabernacle doors were closed and we would sit down.

This is all from memory of mass that I remember from the early 80’s. I probably have a few things incorrect. Alot has changed since then and in the months since my return to the church, I’ve been constantly challenged to have an open mind. If it’s supposed to be a universal church why is everything changing?

Mike

Your recollections are pretty much correct. After communion, the altar servers would pour water over the priest’s fingers into the chalice. The chalice was slowly turned to ensure that any remaining host particles were picked up, and the priest then consumed the water. He then wiped the chalice with the linen cloth (the purificator), which was folded and placed over the top of the chalice, which was then covered with the burse and the chalice veil.

At my parish, these actions are still taken–by priests who are far younger than me.

Any crumbs from empty ciboria are wiped into the one chalice beofre the above procedure. Empty ciboria are then carried to the sacristy by EMHC’s or other priests.

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

JimG:

Your recollections are pretty much correct. After communion, the altar servers would pour water over the priest’s fingers into the chalice. The chalice was slowly turned to ensure that any remaining host particles were picked up, and the priest then consumed the water. He then wiped the chalice with the linen cloth (the purificator), which was folded and placed over the top of the chalice, which was then covered with the burse and the chalice veil.

At my parish, these actions are still taken–by priests who are far younger than me.

Any crumbs from empty ciboria are wiped into the one chalice beofre the above procedure. Empty ciboria are then carried to the sacristy by EMHC’s or other priests.

They would also wash the chalice with fresh wine in place of water, and the celebrant would place his fingers that touched the hosts in the steam of wine from the cruet/ewer to the chalice.

Also, the pall (stiff board covered with white linen) was placed inside of the burse at the end…

 

[FrRobSST]

I follow the older practice, except with all water, as I don’t much care for wine to start with.

After communion, I begin by pouring some water onto the paten and using my index finger to loose any particles that remain stuck on the Paten itself. I pour this into the Chalice and consume this ablution with the Precious Blood that was remaining in the Chalice.

After the first drink from the chalice, I pour water into the chalice and rinse it, drink it. Then I have water poured pour over my fingers (at Mass when I have no server, I pour water into the Chalice and cleanse my fingers in the chalice itself), I dry the fingers on the purificator, and then consume the final ablution.

Then i restack the chalice, purificator, paten, pall, and cover them with the Chalice veil. The Deacon then removes it, or I remove it, to the Credence Table.

I just can’t bring myself to removing anything off of the corporal until the elements are consumed and the chalice is cleansed (well, save to commune the people!). The chalice and paten with the Precious Body and Blood of Christ belong on the Corporal… can’t remember HOW MANY times that was rammed in.

Keep in mind, I am not Roman Catholic, so this is only my expereince - as permitted by the Rubrics of the Liturgy I employ.

Rob+

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

FrRobSST:

I follow the older practice, except with all water, as I don’t much care for wine to start with.

After communion, I begin by pouring some water onto the paten and using my index finger to loose any particles that remain stuck on the Paten itself. I pour this into the Chalice and consume this ablution with the Precious Blood that was remaining in the Chalice.

After the first drink from the chalice, I pour water into the chalice and rinse it, drink it. Then I have water poured pour over my fingers (at Mass when I have no server, I pour water into the Chalice and cleanse my fingers in the chalice itself), I dry the fingers on the purificator, and then consume the final ablution.

Then i restack the chalice, purificator, paten, pall, and cover them with the Chalice veil. The Deacon then removes it, or I remove it, to the Credence Table.

I just can’t bring myself to removing anything off of the corporal until the elements are consumed and the chalice is cleansed (well, save to commune the people!). The chalice and paten with the Precious Body and Blood of Christ belong on the Corporal… can’t remember HOW MANY times that was rammed in.

Keep in mind,** I am not Roman Catholic**, so this is only my expereince - as permitted by the Rubrics of the Liturgy I employ.

Rob+

From your website:

“Welcome to Stellarcross.org, the official personal homepage of Father Robert Lyons. I am a presbyter (priest) of The Christian Church - Synod of Saint Timothy, and a member of the Society of Saint Timothy, a religious order dedicated to the Primitive Catholic faith and to the regular celebration of the Holy Eucharist. I am the associate pastor of the Church of the Transfiguration in Anderson, Indiana, and the Lead Chaplain at Wishard Memorial Hospital in Indianapolis.”

So in other words, you’re neither a Catholic or Orthodox Christian – you’re a Protestant Christian…

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Not to throw this thread off topic, but I had the same q’s for “Fr” Rob. So what are you? And why is Jesus on the cross that way on your web page, that is disrespect.

 

[FrRobSST]

Catholic Dude:

Not to throw this thread off topic, but I had the same q’s for “Fr” Rob. So what are you? And why is Jesus on the cross that way on your web page, that is disrespect.

If you are referring to the photo of the cross on www.fatherrob.org, the cross is called a Christus Rex, and it is in no way disrespectful! It is Christ, our Great High Priest, vested in his vestments, crowned with his Crown, and reigning. It is an ancient form of the cross, and is used worldwide.

Rob+

 

[FrRobSST]

Pariah Pirana:

From your website:

“Welcome to Stellarcross.org, the official personal homepage of Father Robert Lyons. I am a presbyter (priest) of The Christian Church - Synod of Saint Timothy, and a member of the Society of Saint Timothy, a religious order dedicated to the Primitive Catholic faith and to the regular celebration of the Holy Eucharist. I am the associate pastor of the Church of the Transfiguration in Anderson, Indiana, and the Lead Chaplain at Wishard Memorial Hospital in Indianapolis.”

So in other words, you’re neither a Catholic or Orthodox Christian – you’re a Protestant Christian…

Sigh I am NOT getting into this argument again. If you want to discuss it, e-mail me privately. I am not here to try to convert anyone, nor did I come here to defend myself ad-nauseaum.

I simply shared my practice with someone who was curious.

Rob+

 

[Catholic_Dude]

FrRobSST:

If you are referring to the photo of the cross on www.fatherrob.org, the cross is called a Christus Rex, and it is in no way disrespectful! It is Christ, our Great High Priest, vested in his vestments, crowned with his Crown, and reigning. It is an ancient form of the cross, and is used worldwide.

Rob+

My Bad, I guess I have never seen that before anywhere. I looked on google and all the images I saw of it were in Anglican, Episcopal and Lutheran churches, I couldnt find any Catholic sites.

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

Sigh I am NOT getting into this argument again. If you want to discuss it, e-mail me privately. I am not here to try to convert anyone, nor did I come here to defend myself ad-nauseaum.

I simply shared my practice with someone who was curious.

Rob+

On this forum your moniker:

"Father Robert Lyons, SST" strongly suggests you are a Catholic priest who is a member of some order/society when in fact it appears you are a Protestant minister of some kind. You should be forthcoming about who you are – particularly on a Catholic Christian forum such as this one.

Your Roman Catholic comment gave you away very quickly…

 

[gelsbern]

He has valid holy orders and those holy orders are recognized by Rome. So he is a priest, and a catholic priest at that due to his ordination, just not in union with Rome, so that means he is not a Roman Catholic priest. Remember ordination puts a mark on the soul of the priest and once a priest always a priest. So he can call himself Father.

The forum is called catholic.com, it’s a misnomer, it should be called RomanCatholic.com. There are so many rites out there, some in union with Rome, some not. It’s too bad that there is such a lack of charity that one cannot discuss commonalities and practices even with those not in Union with Rome. After all the Holy Father said that the Church is found in more than just the Roman Catholic Church.

128.242.94.249/library/ratzinger_dominus.htm

“Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church.”

and from catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9706qq.asp

Q: What relationship does the Catholic Church perceive to exist between itself and various Protestants (the baptized ones who still accept their faith)?

A: Validly baptized Protestants are regarded as true Christian brothers and sisters who are in imperfect relationship with the Church. The nature of the imperfections is as varied as Protestantism itself. The idea at work here is that the faith is an incarnational thing, not just a “spiritual” (disembodied) thing—just like Jesus himself. Thus, it is possible to be out of union with the Church “bodily” (structurally, sacramentally, liturgically), yet still have a spiritual unity with the Church. Likewise, it is possible to be “bodily” united to the Church yet cease to be in communion with her spiritually (as an apostate Catholic is if he keeps going to Communion yet rejects the creed or continues unrepentant in grave sin). The latter form of disunity with Church is more serious than the former.

The SST has the same seven sacraments, holds to the same creeds (nicene and apostles) and they agree with Rome in everything in regards to salvation, but not all of the other stuff that isn’t required for salvation.

 

[HagiaSophia]

Catholic Dude:

My Bad, I guess I have never seen that before anywhere. I looked on google and all the images I saw of it were in Anglican, Episcopal and Lutheran churches, I couldnt find any Catholic sites.

That is indeed a shame. the Feast of Christus Rex used to be an occasion prior to the council of public processions, statues being carried, and always the Christus Rex emblems and artwork on programs, banners, etc. Many churches especially those called Christ the King had statuary, paintings. etc. You mean you have never hard the expression: Christus Rex - Salvator Mundi?

 

[HagiaSophia]

Pariah Pirana:

On this forum your moniker:

"Father Robert Lyons, SST" strongly suggests you are a Catholic priest who is a member of some order/society when in fact it appears you are a Protestant minister of some kind. You should be forthcoming about who you are – particularly on a Catholic Christian forum such as this one.

Your Roman Catholic comment gave you away very quickly…

There are priests from other denominations as well as other rites and churches. The term Roman Catholic gives nothing away other than identifying the person as being from the Latin rite. I prefer and use it always so as to avoid confusion between Eastern Rite and these days even Old Catholics.

And really is it necessary to take such a hostile tone with newcomers to the forum before they have said or done anything to offend anyone? If there is a question - why not simply ask the person just as if you have been introduced to someone and aren’t quite clear on their affiliation or status. The official crusades with battleaxes and maces ended some time ago.

I can certainly understand being short and not too sweet with abrasive, offensive or crude people - heaven knows we have all had to deal with them and frankly, I have lost my patience with most of them. So far I have seen nothing of that from the OP. Whatever happened to “welcome the stranger”

For someone who lists their residence as Vatican City State, which would mandatorily make you an employee of the Vatican, one would think something of John Paul’s manners would have permeated the atmosphere.

 

[HagiaSophia]

gelsbern:

The forum is called catholic.com, it’s a misnomer, it should be called RomanCatholic.com. There are so many rites out there, some in union with Rome, some not. It’s too bad that there is such a lack of charity that one cannot discuss commonalities and practices even with those not in Union with Rome. After all the Holy Father said that the Church is found in more than just the Roman Catholic Church…

:clapping: Sometimes I think people get confused with the church and her mission – they treat the church as if it is some private club for “members only” - all others keep out. As James Joyce put it, when you say “catholic” – here comes everybody.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Catholic Dude:

Not to throw this thread off topic, but I had the same q’s for “Fr” Rob. So what are you? And why is Jesus on the cross that way on your web page, that is disrespect.

There is nothing wrong with the crucifix shown. I have seen variations of this many times in many places it is depicting Christ the King of Glory.

 

[FrRobSST]

Pariah Pirana:

On this forum your moniker:

"Father Robert Lyons, SST" strongly suggests you are a Catholic priest

Yes, that would be correct. Primitive Catholic, not Roman Catholic.

who is a member of some order/society

I am. The Society of Saint Timothy.

when in fact it appears you are a Protestant minister of some kind.

That would be incorrect. I believe in the necessity of Apostolic Succession, the seven sacraments, and the witness of the ancient deposit of faith including scripture and tradition. I respect that some Protestants had great insights, but I am not a Protestant, nor do I have any plans to be so.

You should be forthcoming about who you are –

Actually, I have been quite forthcoming. I sign after my name “Primitive Catholic Presbyter” on all my posts, I provide a web address, and it provides, in turn, links to other sites that I maintain or am associated with. I have from day one been honest and open. I am not a Roman Catholic. But I have far more in common with Roman Catholics than I do Protestants, and I am tired from having to deal with the typical ad hominem arguments on various ‘General Religion’ boards that are out there.

particularly on a Catholic Christian forum such as this one.

Your Roman Catholic comment gave you away very quickly…

In my very first post in The Water Cooler I identified myself as not being Roman Catholic. I have never once attempted to imply that I am a member of the Roman Catholic Church, nor will I ever attempt to do so unless by some chance I happen to join the Roman Catholic Church.

Now, can we please get back to the topic of cleansing the chalice?

Rob+

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

FrRobSST:

Yes, that would be correct. Primitive Catholic, not Roman Catholic.

I am. The Society of Saint Timothy.

That would be incorrect. I believe in the necessity of Apostolic Succession, the seven sacraments, and the witness of the ancient deposit of faith including scripture and tradition. I respect that some Protestants had great insights, but I am not a Protestant, nor do I have any plans to be so.

Actually, I have been quite forthcoming. I sign after my name “Primitive Catholic Presbyter” on all my posts, I provide a web address, and it provides, in turn, links to other sites that I maintain or am associated with. I have from day one been honest and open. I am not a Roman Catholic. But I have far more in common with Roman Catholics than I do Protestants, and I am tired from having to deal with the typical ad hominem arguments on various ‘General Religion’ boards that are out there.

In my very first post in The Water Cooler I identified myself as not being Roman Catholic. I have never once attempted to imply that I am a member of the Roman Catholic Church, nor will I ever attempt to do so unless by some chance I happen to join the Roman Catholic Church.

Now, can we please get back to the topic of cleansing the chalice?

Rob+

You are a Protestant…

You remind me of those stories where Anglican Protestants would refer to all Catholic Christians as “*Roman *Catholics” in the hopes of being able to maintain some level of “Anglican Catholic” status.

(And so there is no futher confusion, ALL Catholic Christians are in perfect communion with the Vicar of Christ on Earth – the Archbishop of Rome, or they ain’t Catholics.)

Your comments are offensive because there ARE Catholic Christians who are not Roman Catholics, yet they are still actually Catholics and are in full communion with the Catholic Church. One of over 20 such groups would be the Byzantine Ruthenian Catholics as just one example.

Yes, I take deep offense when people such as yourself claim to be Catholics and characterise the entire Catholic Church as the “Roman Catholic Church” in an attempt to keep a seat at the table. Utter hubris.