Cleaning the Chalice

[FrRobSST]

Pariah Pirana:

You are a Protestant…

Whatever. Fortunately, I don’t need you to validate my jurisdiction or my ministry.

You remind me of those stories where Anglican Protestants would refer to all Catholic Christians as “*Roman *Catholics” in the hopes of being able to maintain some level of “Anglican Catholic” status.

Sigh So, I guess I need to go back and triple check every phrase I ever use? I have in multiple posts noted varying terms for those churches united with the See of Rome in an attempt to avoid being offensive. Once I decided to save my fingers and just type Roman Catholic Church… I’ll be sure to avoid that in the future.

(And so there is no futher confusion, ALL Catholic Christians are in perfect communion with the Vicar of Christ on Earth – the Archbishop of Rome, or they ain’t Catholics.)

I think you need to check out a writing out of Rome from a few years back in which it is stated that the true Church of Christ is present in those Churches wherein the Sacraments are celebrated and Apostolic Succession is maintained. Also, your statement above is your opinion. It may be a widespread opinion, but that does not make it specifically true.

Your comments are offensive because there ARE Catholic Christians who are not Roman Catholics, yet they are still actually Catholics and are in full communion with the Catholic Church. One of over 20 such groups would be the Byzantine Ruthenian Catholics as just one example.

I am quite aware of that fact. There are Maronites, Ukranians, Melkites, Copts, Ethopians, and many others. There are some of us who are not united to Rome. You choose not to recognize that. So be it. I do recognize that fact. We have a fundamental disagreement - and we always will.

Yes, I take deep offense when people such as yourself claim to be Catholics and characterise the entire Catholic Church as the “Roman Catholic Church” in an attempt to keep a seat at the table. Utter hubris.

Hrm… As noted earlier, I decided to save myself a few keystrokes by using RCC. My apologies, and I will make sure to be more precise in the future. However, I find it deeply offensive when people such as yourself claim that no-one else has the right to use the word Catholic. I would like to see you try to get everyone in the world to take the word Catholic out of the Creed.

It is abundantly obvious to me that both the late Bishop of Rome, John Paul II, and most Roman Bishops tend to be far more ecumenical than you are giving them credit for.

Now, if you would like to start a seperate thread to continue to this discussion, or if you would prefer to contact me privately, so be it. However, can we PLEASE let this thread get back to the topic of cleaning the chalice?

Rob+

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

He has valid holy orders and those holy orders are recognized by Rome. So he is a priest, and a catholic priest at that due to his ordination, just not in union with Rome, so that means he is not a Roman Catholic priest. Remember ordination puts a mark on the soul of the priest and once a priest always a priest. So he can call himself Father.

The forum is called catholic.com, it’s a misnomer, it should be called RomanCatholic.com. There are so many rites out there, some in union with Rome, some not. It’s too bad that there is such a lack of charity that one cannot discuss commonalities and practices even with those not in Union with Rome. After all the Holy Father said that the Church is found in more than just the Roman Catholic Church.

The SST has the same seven sacraments, holds to the same creeds (nicene and apostles) and they agree with Rome in everything in regards to salvation, but not all of the other stuff that isn’t required for salvation.

Oh yeah? Where does the Catholic Church say the “SST” have valid holy orders? Where does the Church confirm their sacraments are valid? Thanks.

 

[gelsbern]

Pariah Pirana:

Oh yeah? Where does the Catholic Church say the “SST” have valid holy orders?

The Catholic church does not name the SST in particular and since that answers your question that is all you are going to get, but I will say that under the dogma, doctrine and canon’s of the Catholic Church, the SST even though not specifically mentioned does indeed have valid holy orders.
Pariah Pirana:

Where does the Church confirm their sacraments are valid? Thanks.

Same answer as above, the SST is not mentioned specifically, however, since they DO have valid holy orders, and if you remember back to your 3rd grade catechism, all that is required for a valid sacrament is matter, form and intent. Which the priests of the SST all satisfy.

I will also ask since you are intent of hijacking this thread, if you would like to discuss more on this issue, please start a new thread.

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

gelsbern:

The Catholic church does not name the SST in particular and since that answers your question that is all you are going to get, but **I will say that under the dogma, doctrine and canon’s of the Catholic Church, the SST even though not specifically mentioned does indeed have valid holy orders. **

Same answer as above, the SST is not mentioned specifically, however, since they DO have valid holy orders, and if you remember back to your 3rd grade catechism, all that is required for a valid sacrament is matter, form and intent. Which the priests of the SST all satisfy.

I will also ask since you are intent of hijacking this thread, if you would like to discuss more on this issue, please start a new thread.

Thankfully that’s not your decision…

In any event it does not appear that the “Primitive Catholic Church” has valid Holy Orders…

The Catholic Church is pretty clear what other institutions have valid Holy Orders – the Eastern Orthodox, the Oriental Orthodox, the Polish National Catholics, etc. etc. etc., and I don’t recall seeing the “Primitive Catholic Church” on the list.

 

[FrRobSST]

Pariah Pirana:

Thankfully that’s not your decision…

In any event it does not appear that the “Primitive Catholic Church” has valid Holy Orders…

The Catholic Church is pretty clear what other institutions have valid Holy Orders – the Eastern Orthodox, the Oriental Orthodox, the Polish National Catholics, etc. etc. etc., and I don’t recall seeing the “Primitive Catholic Church” on the list.

If wish to continue to derail this thread, I will have no further part in it. If you want to have your questions addressed, please contact me or my Bishop Ordinary privately.

Rob+

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

FrRobSST:

If wish to continue to derail this thread, I will have no further part in it. If you want to have your questions addressed, please contact me or my Bishop Ordinary privately.

Rob+

No questions here…

 

[gelsbern]

Good, now that that is over, anyone else seen anything like this in regards to cleaning the chalice?

 

[travellinmike]

Wow! Didn’t mean to stir up such a heated topic. Anyway, is my priest doing anything wrong by not cleaning the chalice at Mass?

As for Fr Rob’s Cross, at least his church has a cross. Ours just has a Jesus floating in mid air. I know it’s the Risen Lord but I miss the Crucifix of my old parish. (SS Simon & Jude Church, Westtown, PA) You could feel the suffering of the passion by looking into the eyes.

Mike

 

[system]

From your website:

“Welcome to Stellarcross.org, the official personal homepage of Father Robert Lyons. I am a presbyter (priest) of The Christian Church - Synod of Saint Timothy, and a member of the Society of Saint Timothy, a religious order dedicated to the Primitive Catholic faith and to the regular celebration of the Holy Eucharist. I am the associate pastor of the Church of the Transfiguration in Anderson, Indiana, and the Lead Chaplain at Wishard Memorial Hospital in Indianapolis.”

So in other words, you’re neither a Catholic or Orthodox Christian – you’re a Protestant Christian…

I know that Roman Catholics want to believe that they own Catholicism, but they don’t. There are many devout independent Catholics who authentically live the Gospel. A statement or edict from a Roman Catholic does not change the fact that Roman Catholicism is only one form of Catholicism. From their perceptive, independent Catholics may be “schismatic,” but fortunately from God’s perspective He does not see it that way and knows I have never left the Catholic faith.