Cleansing of the Temple

[Usbek_de_Perse]

Matthew 21: 12-13

12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, 13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

Our Lord cleansed the Temple of moneychangers. It is time for the pope the “Vicar of Christ” to cleanse the church of pederast, pedophile, perverted priests. This is a daunting task. It is hard to believe that a church-man like Benedict is up to the task, but his office (at least to me) dictates that is what he must do.

Christ has set the example. I don’t envy Benedict’s task.

 

[SSTeacher]

Matthew 21: 12-13

12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, 13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

Our Lord cleansed the Temple of moneychangers. It is time for the pope the “Vicar of Christ” to cleanse the church of pederast, pedophile, perverted priests. This is a daunting task. It is hard to believe that a church-man like Benedict is up to the task, but his office (at least to me) dictates that is what he must do.

Christ has set the example. I don’t envy Benedict’s task.

How do you think he should set about accomplishing this task?

Curiously,
Mick

 

[ralphinal]

There are several issues here that I see. First, how do you know who goes and who stays? Either you will always be chasing the guilty out OR you will have to accept that some innocent will be lumped in with the guilty. Second, is the Church as a whole willing to speak clearly and honestly on the issue? The VAST majority of cases ARE NOT pedophilia. Pedophilia is the molestation of a pre-pubescent child. These cases are cases of hebephilia (early post pubescent) and ephebophilia (late post puescent). In fact, the ephebophilia was the most common, with the victoms between 15 and 19. Why does that matter? Because pedophilia is not at all connected with homosexuality or heterosexuality. Ephebophilia is a matter of age of concent. If a heterosexual male is acting upon a ephebophiliac urge, he is molesting a girl who is under the age of concent. What this means is that these priests were mostly homosexuals who had lost the will to control their desires. Until the Church says clearly that this was the issue, it will not be fixed. The Church needs to make it clear that men who have strong homosexual inclinations will be watched closely if they are allowed into the priesthood at all.

Don’t get me wrong. Men guilty of this need to be punished. The problem is that they do not openly advertise their position.

 

[SSTeacher]

There are several issues here that I see. First, how do you know who goes and who stays? Either you will always be chasing the guilty out OR you will have to accept that some innocent will be lumped in with the guilty. Second, is the Church as a whole willing to speak clearly and honestly on the issue? The VAST majority of cases ARE NOT pedophilia. Pedophilia is the molestation of a pre-pubescent child. These cases are cases of hebephilia (early post pubescent) and ephebophilia (late post puescent). In fact, the ephebophilia was the most common, with the victoms between 15 and 19. Why does that matter? Because pedophilia is not at all connected with homosexuality or heterosexuality. Ephebophilia is a matter of age of concent. If a heterosexual male is acting upon a ephebophiliac urge, he is molesting a girl who is under the age of concent. What this means is that these priests were mostly homosexuals who had lost the will to control their desires. Until the Church says clearly that this was the issue, it will not be fixed. The Church needs to make it clear that men who have strong homosexual inclinations will be watched closely if they are allowed into the priesthood at all.

Don’t get me wrong. Men guilty of this need to be punished. The problem is that they do not openly advertise their position.

So, do you have any practical suggestions as to how the Catholic Church might begin to solve what is apparently an ongoing internal problem?

Cordially,
Mick

 

[ralphinal]

So, do you have any practical suggestions as to how the Catholic Church might begin to solve what is apparently an ongoing internal problem?

Cordially,
Mick

First, make it know which cases involve current clerics, including which ones who are serving now as bishops. State simply that we cannot dig up the dead to beat them, so cases involving those who are no longer priests will not be discussed. Second, anyone guilty will be given two choices AFTER the civil authorities are done: outright defrocking or forced monasticism. Finally, homosexual men will be monitered closely as priests if allowed to be ordained at all.

The Church should be more thorough in who is allowed to become a priest and who is allowed to remain one.

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;6419400:

So, do you have any practical suggestions as to how the Catholic Church might begin to solve what is apparently an ongoing internal problem?

Cordially,
Mick

First, make it known which cases involve current clerics, including which ones who are serving now as bishops. State simply that we cannot dig up the dead to beat them, so cases involving those who are no longer priests will not be discussed. Second, anyone guilty will be given two choices AFTER the civil authorities are done: outright defrocking or forced monasticism. Finally, homosexual men will be monitored closely as priests if allowed to be ordained at all.

The Church should be more thorough in who is allowed to become a priest and who is allowed to remain one.

Thanks very much for your sensible and thoughtful contribution.

Appreciatively,
Mick

 

[Marie5890]

Appreciate these thoughtful posts. Also appreciate the “cleansing of the Temple” analogy.

My first impressions of the past few days was that, just in the time of Jesus and within His inner circle, there continues to be Judas’s…people who will betray all the Christ stands for…people who will be treacherous…to the rest of the Body of Christ.

Perhaps its not the best analogy, but those were the first thoughts that I had.

Those who are part of the whole will betray and act treacherously towards it…

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

QUOTE=Usbek de Perse;6418219]Matthew 21: 12-13

12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, 13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

Our Lord cleansed the Temple of moneychangers. It is time for the pope the “Vicar of Christ” to cleanse the church of pederast, pedophile, perverted priests. This is a daunting task. It is hard to believe that a church-man like Benedict is up to the task, but his office (at least to me) dictates that is what he must do.

Christ has set the example. I don’t envy Benedict’s task.

Woooo hang on there; The interpretation of Matthew 21:12-13 is not Jesus getting a broom and wash bucket to cleanse the temple as you propose here. The Apostolic teaching from the first century is that Jesus fulfilled a prophecy no.1, no. 2 Jesus removed the money changers not because of what they were doing, Jesus removed the money changers because of WHERE THEY WERE DOING THEIR MONEY BUSINESS. The Jews removed the women and pagans from their prayer areas and moved in the money changers. Meaning the Jews kept the pagans and women from coming to pray to God.

Now for the Pope to follow this scripture would be Rock if he did not remove the sinners from the Church, but grant them confession, repentance, penance, forgiveness, mercy and absolution to remove them from their sinful ways.

The Pope hates the sin, but will die for the soul. For the Pope to act as you propose him to do would not be following the teachings of Jesus Christ which the world does not understand, because these teachings are not of the world, because they come from God.

…Judge not, lest you be Judged…

Peace be with you

 

[mark_a]

I don’t envy Benedict’s task.

Me neither.

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

I know what Jesus did. It is stated in the Gospel. Again, money business is, in my humble an uninformed opinion, far easier to deal with than sexual perversion.

Gabriel_of_12:
Woooo hang on there; The interpretation of Matthew 21:12-13 is not Jesus getting a broom and wash bucket to cleanse the temple as you propose here. The Apostolic teaching from the first century is that Jesus fulfilled a prophecy no.1, no. 2 Jesus removed the money changers not because of what they were doing, Jesus removed the money changers because of WHERE THEY WERE DOING THEIR MONEY BUSINESS. The Jews removed the women and pagans from their prayer areas and moved in the money changers. Meaning the Jews kept the pagans and women from coming to pray to God.

Now for the Pope to follow this scripture would be Rock if he did not remove the sinners from the Church, but grant them confession, repentance, penance, forgiveness, mercy and absolution to remove them from their sinful ways.

The Pope hates the sin, but will die for the soul. For the Pope to act as you propose him to do would not be following the teachings of Jesus Christ which the world does not understand, because these teachings are not of the world, because they come from God.

…Judge not, lest you be Judged…

Peace be with you

 

[ralphinal]

Gabriel_of_12:
Woooo hang on there; The interpretation of Matthew 21:12-13 is not Jesus getting a broom and wash bucket to cleanse the temple as you propose here. The Apostolic teaching from the first century is that Jesus fulfilled a prophecy no.1, no. 2 Jesus removed the money changers not because of what they were doing, Jesus removed the money changers because of WHERE THEY WERE DOING THEIR MONEY BUSINESS. The Jews removed the women and pagans from their prayer areas and moved in the money changers. Meaning the Jews kept the pagans and women from coming to pray to God.

Now for the Pope to follow this scripture would be Rock if he did not remove the sinners from the Church, but** grant them confession, repentance, penance, forgiveness, mercy and absolution to remove them from their sinful ways.**
The Pope hates the sin, but will die for the soul. For the Pope to act as you propose him to do would not be following the teachings of Jesus Christ which the world does not understand, because these teachings are not of the world, because they come from God.

…Judge not, lest you be Judged…

Peace be with you

If you are saying that a good confession and penance would keep these men from doing it again, you are falling into the trap that caused this. People who commit sex crimes are the least likely to leave their sinful ways. Sure, let them be forgiven, but let them be removed from the occasion of sin

 

[Libertarian_FL]

Why do you lump homosexual men in with pedophiles, normal and well-adjusted homsexual MEN want to be with other MEN not a child.

As for the analogy of Jesus its not right He wanted business out of the temple the priesthood did get donations both a share of sacrifices and likely money from the faithful they didn’t need to get more from a share of moneylending. Come on are you foolish enough to think they did not get a cut. [This is best left for another thread.]

And how many clergy are in poor nations now abusing the faithful children and your leadership does nothing. If the church was serious revive the Inquisition with modern tools, ferret them all out as far as you can, censor any leader that covered it up and turn them over and purge the faith. Lie detectors, testimonies and the like can work at this and a Papal support for those who were victimized to come forward. And how about ante up some of the vaste wealth stolen from your faithful to redress these crimes at the Vatican level.

Another example of one rule the rich and mighty, and one for the rest of us.

 

[ralphinal]

Why do you lump homosexual men in with pedophiles, normal and well-adjusted homsexual MEN want to be with other MEN not a child.

As for the analogy of Jesus its not right He wanted business out of the temple the priesthood did get donations both a share of sacrifices and likely money from the faithful they didn’t need to get more from a share of moneylending. Come on are you foolish enough to think they did not get a cut. [This is best left for another thread.]

And how many clergy are in poor nations now abusing the faithful children and your leadership does nothing. If the church was serious revive the Inquisition with modern tools, ferret them all out as far as you can, censor any leader that covered it up and turn them over and purge the faith. Lie detectors, testimonies and the like can work at this and a Papal support for those who were victimized to come forward. And how about ante up some of the vaste wealth stolen from your faithful to redress these crimes at the Vatican level.

Another example of one rule the rich and mighty, and one for the rest of us.

You must not have read what I posted. The majority of the priests accused in this were not accused of pedophilia, which is not at all connected with homosexuality. They were accused of either hebephilia (early post pubescent) or ephebophilia (late post puescent). These are not as much a disorder as they represent a sexual prediliction that is opposed to the laws of the cultures in which we live. In other words, it is a case of a homosexual man going after another male who is capable of sexual function (i.e. post pubescent) even though society says that the young man is not able to grant consent. Again, the majority of cases were NOT pedophilia which is NOT a part of “normal” homosexual activities

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

If you are saying that a good confession and penance would keep these men from doing it again, you are falling into the trap that caused this. People who commit sex crimes are the least likely to leave their sinful ways. Sure, let them be forgiven, but let them be removed from the occasion of sin

This is a huge topic of discussion. My commentary limited the subject matter to the OP of cleansing the temple, not the process of adminstering justice, which is another related topic here.

Whereby the Church is on earth to save the sinner not condemn the sinner and or excommunicate them (sinners) back into the world. The Catholic church is calling sinners out of the world into salvation through Jesus Christ. This is always the first course of business.

How this process is done in our present day and age remains to be seen. One thing is for sure, The Catholic Church possesses the biblical ministry of Reconciliation (confession, penance, absolution etc.) (2 Corinthians 5:18 And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 So we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God…)

The case in point is for the Pope to exhaust all options to help bring the sinner to repentance, which may not be popular, or in agreement with the secular world. Needless to say the Pope is also confined to his vow of chastity, poverty, obedience and confessional secrecy. Which draws a fine line in the public sector to protect the confessions and any innocent victims involved.

The Pope does not fear man who can destroy the body; the Popes main task is to protect the innocent and direct the (sinner) soul to repentance in Jesus Christ when God can destroy both the soul and the body.

 

[ralphinal]

This is a huge topic of discussion. My commentary limited the subject matter to the OP of cleansing the temple, not the process of adminstering justice, which is another related topic here.

Whereby the Church is on earth to save the sinner not condemn the sinner and or excommunicate them (sinners) back into the world. The Catholic church is calling sinners out of the world into salvation through Jesus Christ. This is always the first course of business.

How this process is done in our present day and age remains to be seen. One thing is for sure, The Catholic Church possesses the biblical ministry of Reconciliation (confession, penance, absolution etc.) (2 Corinthians 5:18 And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 So we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God…)

The case in point is for the Pope to exhaust all options to help bring the sinner to repentance, which may not be popular, or in agreement with the secular world. Needless to say the Pope is also confined to his vow of chastity, poverty, obedience and confessional secrecy. Which draws a fine line in the public sector to protect the confessions and any innocent victims involved.

The Pope does not fear man who can destroy the body; the Popes main task is to protect the innocent and direct the (sinner) soul to repentance in Jesus Christ when God can destroy both the soul and the body.

I agree 100%, but do you think that if a priest does something of this sort, goes to confession and makes a sincere act of contrition, he should be put back into a role at a parish?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I agree 100%, but do you think that if a priest does something of this sort, goes to confession and makes a sincere act of contrition, he should be put back into a role at a parish?

Personally I think he should be hanged burned at the stake and ship his ashes to the moon. But Im not the Pope or a Bishop.

Only God can judge the soul. The Church is here to protect the innocent and give life to the dead. I do believe a standard should be put in place in our age to address these new difficult situations. A protocol that will place justice for the victim, and reconciliation with the penitent. With an assurance of supervision and treatment that it never occurs again, placing responsiblity now on the whole to protect the innocent. So yes a disciplinary as to remove an offender’s active faculties is a must, and not be allowed to minister unless a secure protocol be in place to prevent these sins from ever occurring.

We must remember although; that the Church does not have the power to remove the faculties of an ordained Priest (this sacramental, consecrated, character is joined by God, which no man can remove), only to remove a Priest from excercising his faculties in the Church.

 

[ralphinal]

Personally I think he should be hanged burned at the stake and ship his ashes to the moon. But Im not the Pope or a Bishop.

Only God can judge the soul. The Church is here to protect the innocent and give life to the dead. I do believe a standard should be put in place in our age to address these new difficult situations. A protocol that will place justice for the victim, and reconciliation with the penitent. With an assurance of supervision and treatment that it never occurs again, placing responsiblity now on the whole to protect the innocent. So yes a disciplinary as to remove an offender’s active faculties is a must, and not be allowed to minister unless a secure protocol be in place to prevent these sins from ever occurring.

We must remember although; that the Church does not have the power to remove the faculties of an ordained Priest (this sacramental, consecrated, character is joined by God, which no man can remove), only to remove a Priest from excercising his faculties in the Church.

I agree