Clear Cut Answer

[jimmy]

nick908:

Would something please give me a straight answer to the following question (I know it was mentioned other places, I just need a straight answer):

Who, When, Where, and Why gave the bishop of Rome (Pope) Authority over the church?

Jesus gave Peter the authority in Matt. 16 and John 21.

 

[jimmy]

petra:

Peter was appointed by Jesus (who, of course, had the authority to do so), not elected by the other disciples. How did Linus actually obtain the key’s to the Kingdom of heaven if it was not passed directly from Peter? How have subsequent popes obtained the keys if not passed directly from the one previously holding them? With the casting of votes by others who do not possess these keys, it is merely a democratic election and a succession of leaders, much like our presidents. How is this a succession and transfer of spiritual authority in the sense that it is implied?

Peter and Linus are not understood to have actually handed the authority on in person. When Linus died, his authority went to the next bishop of Rome, Anacletus. When Anacletus died, his authority went to Clement. And so on.

 

[petra]

jimmy:

Peter and Linus are not understood to have actually handed the authority on in person. When Linus died, his authority went to the next bishop of Rome, Anacletus. When Anacletus died, his authority went to Clement. And so on.

How is authority transferred if not by the one having current authority? You can’t give something away that you do not have.

 

[vern_humphrey]

petra:

How is authority transferred if not by the one having current authority? You can’t give something away that you do not have.

How does the new President have authority, if the old President doesn’t “give” it to him?http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif

Answer: He is elected. When he assumes the position of President, he has the authority of the President.

 

[petra]

vern humphrey:

Read Acts: 1,15-26

15 During those days Peter stood up in the midst of the brothers (there was a group of about one hundred and twenty persons in the one place). He said, 16 “My brothers, the scripture had to be fulfilled which the holy Spirit spoke beforehand through the mouth of David, concerning Judas, who was the guide for those who arrested Jesus. 17 He was numbered among us and was allotted a share in this ministry. 18 He bought a parcel of land with the wages of his iniquity, and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle, and all his insides spilled out. 19 This became known to everyone who lived in Jerusalem, so that the parcel of land was called in their language ‘Akeldama,’ that is, Field of Blood. 20 For it is written in the Book of Psalms: ‘Let his encampment become desolate, and may no one dwell in it.’ And: ‘May another take his office.’ 21 Therefore, it is necessary that one of the men who accompanied us the whole time the Lord Jesus came and went among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John until the day on which he was taken up from us, become with us a witness to his resurrection.” 23 So they proposed two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was also known as Justus, and Matthias. 24 Then they prayed, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen 25 to take the place in this apostolic ministry from which Judas turned away to go to his own place.” 26 Then they gave lots to them, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was counted with the eleven apostles. Very clearly, the Apostles had the power to pass on their authority. Now, Peter was the Rock on which the Church was built. To Peter were given the keys of stewardship. And the need for the authority of Peter to be with the Church for all time is clearly seen when you see how Protestantism has fragmented and re-fragmented (to the point where there are some 33,000 separate sects in the US alone.)

When Peter was martyred at Rome, his power and authority devolved on his successor. There is little doubt that Linus was Peter’s choice – even Clement, the 4th Pope tells us how he also was selected by Peter.

So Peter’s first three successors (Linus, Anencletus and Clement) were all men personally selected and taught by Peter.

The point of this is Popes don’t come out of nowhere – they are men who have long histories of service to the Church, just as Linus, Anencletus and Clement had.

So did Peter preselect Linus, Anencletus and Clement as the next 3 popes before he died? If so, authority could be legitimately transferred because Peter received authority from Jesus.

But how can other popes be given the keys by others who do not themselves have the keys?

 

[jimmy]

petra:

How is authority transferred if not by the one having current authority? You can’t give something away that you do not have.

The authority just flows to the successor of the pope, when he is elected. All bishops have there own authority. They vote on a man to take the seat as the bishop of Rome. All bishops have the ability to ordain bishops. It is understood that the authority of Peter is passed on through the bishops of Rome, although that is not a necessity. So, when one bishop of Rome dies, another is chosen to take the seat in Rome. This new bishop automatically has the authority of Peter because he is the bishop of Rome, not because it is given to him by anyone else. The authority is in the line of bishops.

 

[petra]

vern humphrey:

How does the new President have authority, if the old President doesn’t “give” it to him?http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif

Answer: He is elected. When he assumes the position of President, he has the authority of the President.

Our president does not receive his authority from the preceding president. He receives it from the people when he is elected. This is my point entirely. If the pope is elected by others, the transferance of authority is not coming from the one currently holding the keys. You can’t give away what you don’t have.

 

[jimmy]

petra:

Our president does not receive his authority from the preceding president. He receives it from the people when he is elected. This is my point entirely. If the pope is elected by others, the transferance of authority is not coming from the one currently holding the keys. You can give away what you don’t have.

It is proceeding from the current pope though. It proceeds through the line of bishops of Rome. A bishop of Rome naturally has this authority.

 

[petra]

jimmy:

The authority just flows to the successor of the pope, when he is elected. All bishops have there own authority. They vote on a man to take the seat as the bishop of Rome. All bishops have the ability to ordain bishops. It is understood that the authority of Peter is passed on through the bishops of Rome, although that is not a necessity. So, when one bishop of Rome dies, another is chosen to take the seat in Rome. This new bishop automatically has the authority of Peter because he is the bishop of Rome, not because it is given to him by anyone else. The authority is in the line of bishops.

Do the bishops also hold the keys to the kingdom?

You said that the new bishop automatically has the authority of Peter because he is the Bishop of Rome. But you also said that “it is understood that the authority of Peter is passed on through the bishops of Rome, although that is not a necessity.” If it is not necessary that the authority is passed to the Bishop of Rome, how is it automatic?

 

[jimmy]

petra:

Do the bishops also hold the keys to the kingdom?

You said that the new bishop automatically has the authority of Peter because he is the Bishop of Rome. But you also said that “it is understood that the authority of Peter is passed on through the bishops of Rome, although that is not a necessity.” If it is not necessary that the authority is passed to the Bishop of Rome, how is it automatic?

The keys belong to the pope alone as the successor of Peter, the bishops all have the ability to bind and to loose though.

What I meant was that it is not necissary that it be in Rome. The pope is the leader of the whole Church, but he does not have to stay in Rome. He could move elsewhere. Peter did not spend his entire time in Rome. He was bishop in Antioch for a few years, then went to Rome where the authority remained. The papacy could move in the future, though it is very highly doubtfull.

 

[vern_humphrey]

petra:

So did Peter preselect Linus, Anencletus and Clement as the next 3 popes before he died? If so, authority could be legitimately transferred because Peter received authority from Jesus.

But how can other popes be given the keys by others who do not themselves have the keys?

Linus, Anencletus and Clement all knew Peter personally (Clement says so in his First Epistle), and Peter may have assigned them to positons of responsibility. By that time, however, the laying on of hands had become the standard (see the Epistles of Paul and his discussion on this issue).

Your theory that power can only be transferred by the person who holds it has been shown false – power is tranferred from one president to another not by the old president giving it, but by the election of the new president. Certainly the early Church did not subscribe to such a theory – yet from the earliest times we see the primacy of the Bishops of Rome, even after the last man who personally knew Peter was dead.

 

[MariaG]

Petra,

The thing you seem to not understand is that we have faith in the promises of Christ. Christ promised the Holy Spirit would lead us. Before elections, these men sincerely ask the Holy Spirit to lead and guide their vote. Do you not think it is possible to pray for God’s direction and He will guide you?

Thus although men cast the vote, we believe they have been guided to their decision by the Holy Spirit. We trust in the promises that the Bible says. “the church is the pillar and foundation of truth”. Don’t you believe that the Holy Spirit is capable and leading and guiding you? I certainly do. And I also believe in the promises of God.

Scripture tells us that Christ left us a comforter, the Holy Spirit. Scripture tells us He will lead us to all truth. Because of our faith in God, our faith in the promises of God, we can be confident He will always lead and guide us.

…“pillar and foundation of truth” “the gates of hell shall not prevail”. My God is capable of leading a whole Church, not just an individual.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[piscotikus]

It seems to me the question being asked is, Why did Peter preselect his predecessors at the beginning, yet now there is an election? I think Maria is right, the Holy Spirit guides the Cardinals to a decision of the new Pope.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Actually, the main argument in favor of our system of passing on the Seat of Peter is, IT WORKS!

For about 2,000 years the Catholic Church has taught a consistent message. Protestantism, in only about a quarter of that time has fragmented into about 33,000 different sects.

 

[Tietjen]

vern humphrey:

Actually, the main argument in favor of our system of passing on the Seat of Peter is, IT WORKS!

For about 2,000 years the Catholic Church has taught a consistent message. Protestantism, in only about a quarter of that time has fragmented into about 33,000 different sects.

This is true but I believe that the reason why there are 33,000+ sects is because they all believe the Bible says different things. If nothing else, this proves that they do not have the Holy Spirit as they claim. Since Protestants insist that the Bible can only be understood through the assistance of the Holy Spirit, it would seem to indicate that either there are 33,000 different Holy Spirits or that He is absent from their interpretations thus allowing them to believe different things and splinter off from one another. I feel very secure in crossing the ocean of life in a ship (the Catholic Church) that is not splintering apart. We should all be standing on the deck of that ship with life preservers in hand to assist those that find their boats crumbling in the waves.
smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/7/7_6_4.gif

 

[MariaG]

Actually, the main argument in favor of our system of passing on the Seat of Peter is, IT WORKS!

For about 2,000 years the Catholic Church has taught a consistent message. Protestantism, in only about a quarter of that time has fragmented into about 33,000 different sects.

But let us never forget to remember why the system works. Why the message has been consistent.

Thank you Holy Spirit!!!

 

[mercygate]

petra:

So did Peter preselect Linus, Anencletus and Clement as the next 3 popes before he died? If so, authority could be legitimately transferred because Peter received authority from Jesus.

But how can other popes be given the keys by others who do not themselves have the keys?

In Mt. 18:18, Jesus, referring to the Church, gives the disciples the power of binding and loosing:
18] Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
19] Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.
20] For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

In conclave, the Pope is elected by those who have succeded to the authority of the Church.

It is not known whether Peter selected his own successor but he did not “appoint” thim. The earliest records we have in the Church show bishops being named by acclamation of the people. The papal conclave is a more orderly form of acclamation.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Tietjen:

This is true but I believe that the reason why there are 33,000+ sects is because they all believe the Bible says different things. If nothing else, this proves that they do not have the Holy Spirit as they claim.
%between%

And a brass band played, "Whoda Thunkit!"http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

Tietjen:

Since Protestants insist that the Bible can only be understood through the assistance of the Holy Spirit, it would seem to indicate that either there are 33,000 different Holy Spirits or that He is absent from their interpretations thus allowing them to believe different things and splinter off from one another.
%between%

You’d think that simple logic would be enough for anyone, wouldn’t you?

I’ve had some of them claim, “Well the differences aren’t all THAT great.”

My response is, “Any difference that causes a church to split IS that great.”

I
Tietjen feel very secure in crossing the ocean of life in a ship (the Catholic Church) that is not splintering apart. We should all be standing on the deck of that ship with life preservers in hand to assist those that find their boats crumbling in the waves.[/color:

%between%

I’m trying – but some people won’t grab the life ring.

 

[Tom]

petra:

Peter was appointed by Jesus (who, of course, had the authority to do so), not elected by the other disciples. How did Linus actually obtain the key’s to the Kingdom of heaven if it was not passed directly from Peter? How have subsequent popes obtained the keys if not passed directly from the one previously holding them? With the casting of votes by others who do not possess these keys, it is merely a democratic election and a succession of leaders, much like our presidents. How is this a succession and transfer of spiritual authority in the sense that it is implied?

As vern has already mentioned;
The “election” of the successors is from Holy Scripture, if we look in Acts chapter 1, we see the Apostles (now a days Cardinals) electing by draw the successor of Judas, who had betrayed Jesus, Judas obviously didn’t “confer” his authority directly, it was passed to his successor. Acts 1, 26 is the specific election. The way (or process of) the election is held today is different, but so is the Church, it’s 2,000 years older.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Petra:

How have subsequent popes obtained the keys if not passed directly from the one previously holding them? With the casting of votes by others who do not possess these keys, it is merely a democratic election and a succession of leaders, much like our presidents. How is this a succession and transfer of spiritual authority in the sense that it is implied?.

How is it NOT a succession and transfer of spiritual authority? What evidence is there that some special way of transferring authority is needed for THIS office, but not for any other office?