Clear, direct marital advice sought

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Decisiontime

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My advice seeking may be waaaaay too late, but don’t know what else to do.

I am seeking advice on what a couple can/should do when they arrive at an impasse on serious marital/ familial issues. It can be assumed for the sake of this discussion that the conflicts are over very serious issues, but not over matters of faith or morals.
 
I am not sure what I could say that might help but I know I can pray for your both and I will. God bless you with the wisdom to know how to move forward.

Memorare

REMEMBER, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to thy protection, implored thy help, or sought thy intercession was left unaided. Inspired with this confidence, I fly to thee, O Virgin of virgins, my Mother; to thee do I come; before thee I stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions, but in thy mercy hear and answer me. Amen.
 
I’m probably not the best one to give advice on this as my first marriage ended in divorce / annulment and I never encountered this problem in my second marriage…😊

Also it is difficult to be “clear and direct” when the question is not.

The best advice I can offer is that the couple needs to pull back and reflect some.
Pray together and consider how important the overall relationship is and how important it is that each be willing to seek the best common solution to the question at hand.

Then - - If you still cannot come to a common solution - - - “Flip a coin”…:D:shrug:

Peace
James
 
Thanks. I think by impasse I mean that all the thinking, discussing, praying etc… has been done, and no commonly accepted resolution is arrived at.

Not opposed to flipping the coin, but how long should a divide be endured before resorting to such an extreme measure?
 
Decisiontime said:
Thanks. I think by impasse I mean that all the thinking, discussing, praying etc… has been done, and no commonly accepted resolution is arrived at.

Not opposed to flipping the coin, but how long should a divide be endured before resorting to such an extreme measure?
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All things change - all times pass and the difference of opinion will likely fade into memory after a while…How long? I don’t know.
How long do you and your spouse wish to be alienated from one another by this divide?

Peace
James
 
After almost 41 years of marriage to a non-Catholic man I can honestly tell you as long as you can you try. If you have to flip a coin and live with the result then you do that. Generally, in serious matters, we eventually call a truce if possible and we honor that truce. Not knowing the specific nature of your issue that may or may not be possible. I have found over these years that it only takes a small moment to turn things completely around and that will be my prayer for you. A very close friend told me a long time ago that one of the greatest things you can do for yourself is to be the one who says OK we will do it your way. Working your way through the laying down of your pride and feelings can bring you great results. I try to pray these things throughout the day, try it when you find yourself thinking and worrying about your issue.
God, I love you help me love you more.
God, I am humble help me be more humble.
God, I am patient help me be more patient.
And, lastly, a few years back I was on a friends FB page and she had posted a link to this site. I joined in and have participated ever since, why not try this novenas site. Tomorrow John-Paul is announcing a new novenas, join us, pray for your issue within the novena. I will add you to my intentions.
www.PrayMoreNovenas.com
 
With out knowing how long youve been married or what the issue is its a bit hard to advise.
My husband and i had a very rough beginning. The first 5-6 years we were together was one trial after another. The next 2-3 years were spent trying to learn how to combine our ideals in a way we could both live with. Quite honestly, in the 15 yrs weve been together its only been in the last 4-5 yrs that things could be described as chunky peanut butter…mostly smooth but with a few bumps 🙂 looking back, the only thing i can say that kept us going was that we loved each other so much. We have been faced with things that less stobborn people would have just thrown in the towel over. We did a lot of talking , fighting, forgiving and comprimising. I guess you should ask yourself, “at the end of the day do i still love this person?” Some will say that love isnt enough. I say that my husband and i are proof that it is 🙂 weve gone through hell together. Yet here we stand, side by side. We still have work to do. But marriage is a full time job! Its important to remember that…each and every day we each have to work in order to keep our marriage strong 🙂
 
Have you tried seeking professional help? Speaking with a priest? Without knowing what the issue is I don’t think I can make further suggestions.
 
Is it possible for two people to decide that they will let go of the past, of the resentments, of the disappointments, vow to never bring up the worst, start anew, respecting, appreciating and valuing the other from this day forward? God hates divorce. Marriage is indissoluble. No matter how many times you’ve started over, it’s worth trying again. Praying you will seek God’s will for you.
 
To answer some specifics asked here…

We have been married close to 30 years.

Yes, we have been to many counselors, retrouvaiile, and read many books.
In my opinion the counselors have very much shied away from being direct, partly out of concern for alienating one spouse or the other. They tried, unsuccessfully to help us come to healthy conclusions on our own - to sort of have us find them ourselves.

Some issues have been:

Can one parent make the sole decision to send a child to a particular school without the consent of the other?

What family matters are discussed with non family members and which should remain private.

How much of our marital problems should/should not be shared with the children?

I have often felt that what we need is the advice of an old country woman. Just practical, in your face, how to live wisdom. One priest once made the analogy that some counselors are like firemen trying to teach us how to be safe with fire, but our “house is on fire and we need a bucket.”
 
If your three issues, only the first seems like it should be so problematic.

The last 2: which ever of you is sharing private matters with family or children against the consent of the other is seriously sinning against the other, Period, end of story.
 
Decisiontime said:
To answer some specifics asked here…

We have been married close to 30 years.

Yes, we have been to many counselors, retrouvaiile, and read many books.
In my opinion the counselors have very much shied away from being direct, partly out of concern for alienating one spouse or the other. They tried, unsuccessfully to help us come to healthy conclusions on our own - to sort of have us find them ourselves.

Some issues have been:

Can one parent make the sole decision to send a child to a particular school without the consent of the other?

What family matters are discussed with non family members and which should remain private.

How much of our marital problems should/should not be shared with the children?

I have often felt that what we need is the advice of an old country woman. Just practical, in your face, how to live wisdom. One priest once made the analogy that some counselors are like firemen trying to teach us how to be safe with fire, but our “house is on fire and we need a bucket.”
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Hmmmm…What works sometimes in our marriage after talking it all out with still no agreement is to “agree to disagree.” However, for the above cases which you give, that still doesn’t provide an answer as to what specifically to do. In that case, I don’t think one should go against the other in important actions that can have difficult consequences for all or some involved. After agreeing to disagree, perhaps praying more and letting some time pass, and then talking it over once again… and again, if necessary. Also helps to try to put yourself in your spouse’s shoes, so to speak, and look at it from their viewpoint without being judgmental. But then you still might have to agree to disagree, at least for awhile…
God’s blessings always on your marriage! Marriage isn’t always easy, but then again neither is life. But God is with us through everything and can help in ways you might never imagine. We just have to let Him do His work.
 
I think if the purpose of marriage is to help each other closer to God than this is you opportunity! Marriage is about learning, it is about becoming a better person. And it is often through the challenges that we learn the most in life. From the conflict points you listed it seems to me that the main learning opportunity for you both here is to learn to forgive, to learn to let go, to learn to move on. You seem to be harbouring a lot of hurt, a lot of resentment. It’s like you are in a constant battle with each other instead of battling yourselves.
 
Yes, there is a lot of forgiveness to be done. But with no agreement on how such issues might be handled in the future, there is little or no trust left. And the hurts of the past seem to be ongoing and promise to be more in the future. These issues have simmered without resolution for many, many years now, with the collateral damage of extreme polarization of the children - horrible almost unheard of divisions.

Agreeing to disagree only works when both parties agree - but if one strongly feels that the actions of the other are damaging the children - how do you agree to that?

As my user name suggests, after struggling for years to have us come to some agreement as to the ground rules we might use to settle these impasses, I am at a point where I need to decide whether there is any point in staying in this marriage or not.

The children are almost all grown now, and there is no hint of a desire from any of them to have any family reconcilliation. The stress of these impasses has left wife and I long past having any feelings of intimacy for each other and without the slightest glimmer of hope that we might actually work together in the future, I come here looking for the last bit of hope as to what we might do.
 
Thanks for the details.

I don’t know what to tell you at this point that might be useful - I actually was in such a situation some years ago (before my return to the church) and I fear anything I might say would be tainted by that experience.

About the only thing I can suggest is counseling and if that doesn’t work…It may be time to separate.

God be with you.

Peace
James
 
Decisiontime said:
Yes, there is a lot of forgiveness to be done. But with no agreement on how such issues might be handled in the future, there is little or no trust left. And the hurts of the past seem to be ongoing and promise to be more in the future. These issues have simmered without resolution for many, many years now, with the collateral damage of extreme polarization of the children - horrible almost unheard of divisions.

Agreeing to disagree only works when both parties agree - but if one strongly feels that the actions of the other are damaging the children - how do you agree to that?

As my user name suggests, after struggling for years to have us come to some agreement as to the ground rules we might use to settle these impasses, I am at a point where I need to decide whether there is any point in staying in this marriage or not.

The children are almost all grown now, and there is no hint of a desire from any of them to have any family reconcilliation. The stress of these impasses has left wife and I long past having any feelings of intimacy for each other and without the slightest glimmer of hope that we might actually work together in the future, I come here looking for the last bit of hope as to what we might do.
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I would say the only places of no return in a marriage are addiction, abuse, infidelity, and probably that’s about it. Everything else is learning, everything else is curable. You may feel your battles are about principles, therefore worth fighting for. I disagree. I believe there’s nothing worth fighting for, I believe in peace and love over anything. The only purpose is to love.

It might not be a bad idea to talk about your issues to wise and trusted friends or relatives. I’d recommend Gary Chapman to read, he does have some good and practical points. But most of all 1 Corinthians 13!
 
Emese said:
I would say the only places of no return in a marriage are addiction, abuse, infidelity, and probably that’s about it. Everything else is learning, everything else is curable. You may feel your battles are about principles, therefore worth fighting for. I disagree. I believe there’s nothing worth fighting for, I believe in peace and love over anything. The only purpose is to love.

It might not be a bad idea to talk about your issues to wise and trusted friends or relatives. I’d recommend Gary Chapman to read, he does have some good and practical points. But most of all 1 Corinthians 13!
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I agree with this.
 
Do not give up hope. Things tend to get easier when all the children are gone and are no longer a source of disagreement. After 41 yrs. of a marriage much like you describe I am finding out good things about my husband that I couldn’t see before, a lack of humility in myself ( when I always thought that was his problem) and that full trust may be hard to come by for both of you, but each day we can ask God to help us try.

I am still hoping for the day when things will somehow turn around for us, but I’m confident that God sees my struggle and that only good can come from being faithful to His word.

I will pray for you and your spouse.
 
Decisiontime said:

"Can one parent make the sole decision to send a child to a particular school without the consent of the other?

"What family matters are discussed with non family members and which should remain private.

“How much of our marital problems should/should not be shared with the children?”

That’s somewhat more helpful. Those genuinely are things that are difficult to split the difference on.

For the school one, if finances allow, I think the parent who is more passionate about school choice should win. (For instance, if the parent is an alum of that school or has some other reason to be passionate about the school, or if it’s a convenient neighborhood school, or if you already know lots of families there, etc.) And then discuss it at re-enrollment time (perhaps with (name removed by moderator)ut from the child if old enough) to see how well the choice is going. I’d even be tempted to resort to a coin flip if both of you were equally committed to your position.

I think the second two questions are more or less the same question. Maybe make an agreement with the consultation of a third party, and then stick to it? It sounds like a lot of your problems are caused by dragging the kids into your arguments (which is terrible), but I can’t tell from your description whether it’s one or both of you at fault for that.

It sounds like you and your spouse are not necessarily that different in outlook on the world, but that you have no functioning decision-making process, no family constitution.

Mary5110 said:

“Things tend to get easier when all the children are gone and are no longer a source of disagreement.”

That is a good point.
 
Thank you. Yes the kids have been brought into it with devastating results.

You nailed it here with your comment:

“It sounds like you and your spouse are not necessarily that different in outlook on the world, but that you have no functioning decision-making process, no family constitution”

That is precisely what I am looking for (name removed by moderator)ut on. So far the only concrete actions suggested that would end a true stalemate is the coin toss. I am not opposed to that but am wondering if others have any suggestions short of a coin toss, but that would result in a timely resolution of the conflict. And do you have any thoughts on how long such conflicts shoul be allowed to drag on before resorting to the coin toss or whatever.
 
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