Clear, direct marital advice sought

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“And do you have any thoughts on how long such conflicts shoul be allowed to drag on before resorting to the coin toss or whatever.”

In your case, I wouldn’t let them drag on a single minute.

Your home life sounds like Stalingrad.

I hope you are able to make some progress. On the one hand, it sounds terrible, but on the other hand, you’ve gotten this far, and in a few years, as Mary said, your kids will be out of the house, so your household will have fewer moving parts, and there will be way less stuff to fight about. There’s nothing on fire right now.

Also, come to think of it, menopause makes a lot of women nuts (and if you’ve been married 30 years, it’s probably just about that time). Some of the stuff you are experiencing now may be a temporary phenomenon.

webmd.com/menopause/emotional-roller-coaster

Best wishes!
 
Decisiontime said:
That is precisely what I am looking for (name removed by moderator)ut on. So far the only concrete actions suggested that would end a true stalemate is the coin toss. I am not opposed to that but am wondering if others have any suggestions short of a coin toss, but that would result in a timely resolution of the conflict. And do you have any thoughts on how long such conflicts shoul be allowed to drag on before resorting to the coin toss or whatever.
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Well, the other obvious solution is that you give in.

It will give you a timely resolution, and potentially save your marriage. And because these are not matters of faith or morals, it is a morally acceptable approach on your part.

Only you can work out what the direct implications of this would be for each of the problems you raise and whether you can live with it. Faced with this approach or ultimately the potential end of your marriage, what would you choose? And what would be better for your children?

Keep in mind that if people have such strong opinions that they are unable to come to an agreement or compromise, the random result of a coin toss will likely be ignored anyway.
 
underacloud said:

“Keep in mind that if people have such strong opinions that they are unable to come to an agreement or compromise, the random result of a coin toss will likely be ignored anyway.”

There is that.
 
Xantippe said:
Decisiontime said:

"Can one parent make the sole decision to send a child to a particular school without the consent of the other?

"What family matters are discussed with non family members and which should remain private.

“How much of our marital problems should/should not be shared with the children?”

.
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Try reframing the questions. See this example.

Or try thinking, what if an earthquake or fire devastated your home, maybe some of your family members would be seriously injured or killed. How important would these questions be then? Should your priorities be re-examined?

Are these questions/disagreements really important enough to wreck your relationships over? It would seem to me that maintaining charitable relationships should take priority over such concerns.
 
Hmm I do appreciate the comments. With only two suggestions so far that would result in closure of the conflicts (coin toss and give in), so far it does not look like there is much reason for hope here.

Though the example issues I cite are not matters of faith or morals, do those who suggested giving in really think that intimacy could ever exist in a marriage where one spouse ruthlessly has their way on such issues? Really? So if my wife decides to discuss deeply personal and seriously slanted positions with friends and family, I should accept that with all the destruction that comes with it. I mean, I get it, that is what I have been doing for many years. I have not been at peace about it, though.

As we approach the end of our child rearing days, I am looking to the future saying to myself, when the kids are gone, why in the world would I want to spend my remaining days with someone who treated me so badly. Just seems that there could be other ways that people agree to resolving conflicts. Something we could both agree to. I guess maybe there is no such thing.
 
Good article Viki63! And Decisiontime, let me tell you that it can work. For all of our married lives my husband and myself have, like you, had no decision making process. It was stalemate, then me giving in. I was so resentful and feeling like I was in a prison. I even started not caring about anything, since I felt I had no (name removed by moderator)ut in the process, and just let him make all decisions. Not conducive to intimacy, as you say. Oddly, the end of the stalemates came from exactly the same example you gave: a decision over which school to attend. My son with autism had always wanted to study a subject given at a specific college. He overcame many obstacles to get there, primed for 20 yrs. by me, got into the school and then my husband refused to let him go. It too almost ended my marriage for good.

After many talks with God, who I know recognizes my struggle, I gave in yet again. Oddly, in the 2 yrs. since then I have been able to see that my husband takes ANY opinion of mine as a put down and rejection of him; not as merely a difference of opinion to be talked about and to weigh the pros and cons. Really, there can be a stalemate even over what to have for dinner if I say it wrong. My challenge then, has been to slow down before I say anything that could be taken as opposition to his ideas and frame them in a different way. We are both so used to fighting over things that our reactions are automatic and this has been hard to change. But it is working and I see a softening in his opposition to me as well as me being able to see his vulnerability. That it took me 41 yrs. to see this is sad, but true.

While things aren’t fantastic and we both have a lot to let go of, I am hopeful. And I am also at peace with God and thankful that He has opened my eyes at last. I wish the same for you.
 
I had you on my heart when I went to sleep last night and I asked God to let you see a way to work this out. I re-read each response given to you and took a close look at your posts and I have to come back again. When your wife turned to friends and family to discuss and reveal your troubles she made a grave mistake. It’s one thing to disagree and have issues within a marriage but it is a serious breach of your vows for these troubles to be told to others unless you were seeking independent counseling. Please do yourself the favor of seeking individual counseling so that you can be professionally and logically taken through the process of finding the right decision for your future. Seek out a Catholic counselor, if possible, and go with an open mind. Sometimes we get so stuck in the middle of a situation, and 30 years is a long time, that we are frozen in place. I will pray for you to be guided to the right person to be able to help you. Please let us know how things are going.
 
Here’s an option that may or may not be workable.

Have your wife promise to only talk about your marital issues with 1) a priest 2) a professional therapist 3) people anonymously on the internet 4) other parties who you yourself do not have to interact with regularly. Your wife may need to vent, but there’s a huge difference between venting to your children and venting to her college buddy Susie who lives in Hawaii that only visits the mainland every 10 years.

That would be something to get her to agree to in counseling or with a priest. It seems like it is worth doing an ultimatum over, as you cannot save your relationship if she’s sharing your problems with the kids, the UPS guy, and everybody you know. Does she understand that this is a deal-breaker and that she is killing your relationship by doing this?

One doesn’t perform open-heart surgery with every single member of the family in the operating room giving pointers. Likewise, if it was so important to have everybody’s (name removed by moderator)ut, your marriage counselor would ask you to bring all these people to your sessions.

By the way, is it generally true that your wife finds it impossible to keep confidences? Is she similarly loose with her friends’ private information?
 
I have been with my husband half the length of time youve been with your wife but heres my two cents worth 🙂 get back to basics! For the time being switch your focus from the issues and date your wife again 🙂 speaking from a womans view point, the little things mean a great deal! Buy her a card that says all those loving things you feel for her, or did feel. Leave her a little note telling her you love her and that she is beautiful. Take her on a date. Intimacy isnt just about sex. Hold her hand when your walking into a store. Randomly give her a kiss and just walk away. Rub her feet while you watch tv. One of you will have to be the first one to put forth the effort. Bring home flowers for her. Tell her how much you aplreciate all she does and list some of those things. Walk right up to her, wrap your arms around her, look her in the eyes and tell her she is the most beautiful woman in the world! Once you get your foot back in the door plan a romantic evening. Take her to dinner maybe even a movie. Talk only of positive things, recall those funny stories from your earlier life. Have the bedroom ready with candles. Be prepared to only go as far as she is ready for. Be romantic man! Lol. Once you rebuild your foundation you can begin to rebuild the structure 🙂
 
Decisiontime said:
Hmm I do appreciate the comments. With only two suggestions so far that would result in closure of the conflicts (coin toss and give in), so far it does not look like there is much reason for hope here.

Though the example issues I cite are not matters of faith or morals, do those who suggested giving in really think that intimacy could ever exist in a marriage where one spouse ruthlessly has their way on such issues? Really? So if my wife decides to discuss deeply personal and seriously slanted positions with friends and family, I should accept that with all the destruction that comes with it. I mean, I get it, that is what I have been doing for many years. I have not been at peace about it, though.

As we approach the end of our child rearing days, I am looking to the future saying to myself, when the kids are gone, why in the world would I want to spend my remaining days with someone who treated me so badly. Just seems that there could be other ways that people agree to resolving conflicts. Something we could both agree to. I guess maybe there is no such thing.
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Have you tried the balance sheet method? If you could both agree in advance to write down together the pros and cons of the ramifications of the decision to be made, then add them up, and review them together. If there are more pros to whatever route, then that would be the route that should be taken, as agreed upon in advance. Might be a more logical way to try than a coin toss. I often use the balance sheet for important decisions in my life, and sometimes with my husband as well.
Prayers for you and your marriage. Talking with a Priest can help tremendously, too, or a counselor recommended by Catholic Charities (no charge usually). Hope some of this might be of help to you. May Our Lord bless you always.
 
Decisiontime said:
Hmm I do appreciate the comments. With only two suggestions so far that would result in closure of the conflicts (coin toss and give in), so far it does not look like there is much reason for hope here.

Though the example issues I cite are not matters of faith or morals, do those who suggested giving in really think that intimacy could ever exist in a marriage where one spouse ruthlessly has their way on such issues? Really? So if my wife decides to discuss deeply personal and seriously slanted positions with friends and family, I should accept that with all the destruction that comes with it. I mean, I get it, that is what I have been doing for many years. I have not been at peace about it, though.

As we approach the end of our child rearing days, I am looking to the future saying to myself, when the kids are gone, why in the world would I want to spend my remaining days with someone who treated me so badly. Just seems that there could be other ways that people agree to resolving conflicts. Something we could both agree to. I guess maybe there is no such thing.
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OP - Just my opinion here based on what you’ve stated. It seems as if the biggest issue in your relationship with your wife is one of communication rather than who wins. Maybe another attempt at counseling with the focus being on how you communicate with each other rather than getting a counselor to solve the problems.

From what I’ve read so far it seems as though you are a little closed off to suggestions, ideas, solutions except those you want to hear. Could that be part of the problem with your wife? Sounds as though you may need to take a step back and truly identify to problems in the marriage, not just the results of the problems.
 
Decisiontime said:
Hmm I do appreciate the comments. With only two suggestions so far that would result in closure of the conflicts (coin toss and give in), so far it does not look like there is much reason for hope here.

Though the example issues I cite are not matters of faith or morals, do those who suggested giving in really think that intimacy could ever exist in a marriage where one spouse ruthlessly has their way on such issues? Really? So if my wife decides to discuss deeply personal and seriously slanted positions with friends and family, I should accept that with all the destruction that comes with it. I mean, I get it, that is what I have been doing for many years. I have not been at peace about it, though.

As we approach the end of our child rearing days, I am looking to the future saying to myself, when the kids are gone, why in the world would I want to spend my remaining days with someone who treated me so badly. Just seems that there could be other ways that people agree to resolving conflicts. Something we could both agree to. I guess maybe there is no such thing.
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I do not think the either of the two suggestions are correct, at least on the fundamental points.
You said on another thread you consider your wife a good person but a very difficult wife. Well, a couple of thoughts come to mind.

First, and again I have an impossible time believing this has not been stressed by every counselor you two have gone to: you have to insist marital troubles stay between the two of you, and do not get discussed with children or other family members. This is such a no-brainer, that one has to ask why she cannot accept it. And the only answer is that she feels a need to talk to someone about it, regardless of the harm it does. It is a habit she likely cannot break easily. So there is one exception: both of you need a good spiritual director (note: I did not say counselor). This is imperative, IMO.

If that can be achieved, good spiritual direction and privacy, that is a huge first step.
Second step, 30 years ago you married this woman and she is your wife and you have a life-long responsibility towards her well-being, both materially and spiritually. You have to accept this as your cross to bear. You have to approach everything with the intent of loving her.

The best advice I ever heard of was a marital counselor gave to my brother and his wife: it was this. If nothing else, start out by being kind to each other. Do little things, open doors for her, do the dishes, shrug off minor criticisms. This does not mean give in. When Christ said to turn the other cheek, he was not saying give in. He was saying, stand your ground in a loving fashion, say to them “I am here with you, despite your behavior to me”. I believe Fr Barone has a couple of very good examples of this early on in his book Catholicism. In one of the first 2 or three chapters, look it up and read it, it will help.

Finally, the kids are almost grown: then I would suggest you develop a good hobby for yourself. Something you enjoy, something that is well-spent leisure time, will give you some space, and will keep your mind on something else part of the day.

But, IMO, you promised to be married to her, it is wrong to give up. Again, you have a responsibility to help her get to heaven. The old saying “the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence” also comes to mind.

God bless.
 
Decisiontime said:
Thank you. Yes the kids have been brought into it with devastating results.

You nailed it here with your comment:

“It sounds like you and your spouse are not necessarily that different in outlook on the world, but that you have no functioning decision-making process, no family constitution”

That is precisely what I am looking for (name removed by moderator)ut on. So far the only concrete actions suggested that would end a true stalemate is the coin toss. I am not opposed to that but am wondering if others have any suggestions short of a coin toss, but that would result in a timely resolution of the conflict. And do you have any thoughts on how long such conflicts shoul be allowed to drag on before resorting to the coin toss or whatever.
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Traditionally a TRUE stalemate would be ended by the decision of the Husband for the good of the family. Remember that the bible teaches that the Husband is the head of the family, but is to treat the wife the way Christ treats his Church. There have been times when Christ has needed to apply some loving guidance to those in his Church.

Modern culture does not seem to allow for traditional family structures and teaches young women that this model is sexist or somehow “unfair.” If both options are equally valid and there is no moral or physical danger to either decision then traditionally the husband would make the final decision.

My wife had and still has a hard time with this. She works with it, but I try very hard to never have to come to such an impass. My wife speaks her mind freely in most things and we usually come to a mutual agreement on how things should happen. Sometimes though it is necessary for there to be a “tie-breaker”, but I really hate this term. Flipping a coin assumes that the role of husband and wife is equal, but it is not. Both spouses are equal in dignity, but their role in a traditional family is different. There is nothing wrong with that.

This is how we work things out in our family. I am not sure if that will work for your family or not.
 
Decisiontime said:
Hmm I do appreciate the comments. With only two suggestions so far that would result in closure of the conflicts (coin toss and give in), so far it does not look like there is much reason for hope here.

Though the example issues I cite are not matters of faith or morals, do those who suggested giving in really think that intimacy could ever exist in a marriage where one spouse ruthlessly has their way on such issues? Really? So if my wife decides to discuss deeply personal and seriously slanted positions with friends and family, I should accept that with all the destruction that comes with it. I mean, I get it, that is what I have been doing for many years. I have not been at peace about it, though.

As we approach the end of our child rearing days, I am looking to the future saying to myself, when the kids are gone, why in the world would I want to spend my remaining days with someone who treated me so badly. Just seems that there could be other ways that people agree to resolving conflicts. Something we could both agree to. I guess maybe there is no such thing.
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Decisionmaking. The way it works in our marriage is that we have different strengths and talents, so for example my husband tends to make most financial decisions and I tend to make the schooling and other decisions related to our children. I’m not too interested in e.g. which mortgage or which car 🙂 and he seems to trust me when it comes to childrelated issues. I believe marriage is teamwork.

The problems you describe are worth resolving, now in this marriage, because these are the kind of problems that don’t usually go away with a new partner, they tend to became issues in all future relationships as well IMHO.

Regarding the privacy of marital conflicts. In our western culture the social norm is that we don’t “air the dirty laundry”. Is this good though? I know an indian couple. They say that in India for example divorce is very rare, and they believe it is because in their culture when a couple has conflicts the whole family and all the friends gather to help out with advice and they all discuss and share experiences, so they don’t treat marital issues private, they are “community” matters.
Is it because we can’t turn to family and friends that we need psychologists, self help groups, self help literuature, discussion forums (basically strangers to help us solve our problems)?
 
Regarding the school decision, there are some other potential factors to consider. Is it that you are in disagreement about a specific school, or does one of you want the children in a school and the other wants homeschooling?
 
Thanks to everyone for their (name removed by moderator)ut.

Horton, I see a lot of good advice in many of the posts, I am afraid that much of it is for people in better situations than we are. We have probably been to more counselors than most any couple. We’ve done Retouvaille, we have done various communication improvement exercises- spent countless hours in counseling and many thousands of dollars on therapists. Yet we still have not resolved some of the very first conflicts that were brought to the sessions 10 years ago. The privacy issue and what the kids should be hearing from us about our problems date back that far. So it is not that I don’t like the advice, it is just that we have tried all and still have nothing in place to settle disputes when all else fails.

One poster suggested a date night. That is advice I needed 15 years ago. Absolutely may have helped prevent us from ending up where we are now. But sadly, that last thing either of us want to do at this point is to be around each other more than we absolutely have to. I am deeply angry and resentful for the control she has taken in matters that I feel should be unified on, and she is upset that I just don’t agree to disagree. We are not talking about minor issues of daily life - what to eat, what to spend all those things we do great on.

These unresolved disputes (and my unwillingness to be at peace about them being unresolved) has devastated our whole family. I really don’t know if is salvageable.

I take seriously my vows to take care of her forever, and will, but being together under the current way we deal with each other does not bring either of us any joy at all.

Hasn’t any of you ever had an issue where you both felt strongly and both were miles apart in your positions?
 
Oh, and as to AnnArbor’s question about the school issue.

The issue was about whether one of the kids should go to public school. We had been homeschooling. I was very much opposed to public school because of the social environment. The decision was made without me to enroll her anyway. She did fine, excelled actually. I can see now that that is past I should let go of it, but I would like a concession that in principle that robbed me of my fatherly rights.
 
Decisiontime said:
Thanks. I think by impasse I mean that all the thinking, discussing, praying etc… has been done, and no commonly accepted resolution is arrived at.

Not opposed to flipping the coin, but how long should a divide be endured before resorting to such an extreme measure?
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If it something that can be resolved by flipping a coin id just let your spouse have their way
 
Decisiontime said:

“I was very much opposed to public school because of the social environment. The decision was made without me to enroll her anyway. She did fine, excelled actually. I can see now that that is past I should let go of it, but I would like a concession that in principle that robbed me of my fatherly rights.”

That’s really ironic, as your current social environment at home as you describe it is much more toxic than almost any public school situation.

I think if your wife was doing the homeschooling, she should have had the deciding vote for whether or not the child went to public school (especially if that’s what the child herself wants). However, I can see how you would really dislike being put in the position of the ogre who is standing between your daughter and the schooling she wants. I think you should tell your wife that she was right about school for your daughter, but that it really hurt you how she did it. (Lay a lot of emphasis on “you were right” and “I was wrong”–it may get her to listen to the part about not overruling you.)

I think I would shelve that particular matter now, and just stick to ongoing business, namely your wife’s oversharing. When you mentioned the oversharing in counseling or alone, what did she say? Did she promise to change?

Unfortunately, some people just can’t keep their mouths shut–they’ve just got no filter at all, so if something’s on their minds, it’s going to be on their lips, too. She may be one of those.
 
Well as far as the school issue, both parents should be involved. My Dh doesn’t want to homeschool so it won’t even be discussed as a possibility. He feels strongly about it. I’d like to consider it as one option but I don’t think it’s worth the battle. The two options I liked best were homeschooling or Catholic school. For now, we both like the local Catholic school but if finances became an issue we’d have to do public school. I personally don’t think either of is think it’s worth fighting over. If he felt strongly toward one option I’d probably just go with it unless there were an actual danger to the kids.

I do relate to the marriage issue in general and lack of intimacy. Our marriage is much younger than yours but we’re struggling as well at the moment.
 
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