Clear, direct marital advice sought

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I don’t have a problem admitting to my wife that the public school worked out O.K. And she knows that.

I also know many parents who thought it would be fine too - until their child came home pregnant , or on drugs or with anti-Catholic views etc. etc. I expect some reading this post have been in that position

My concern is twofold 1) that it is both parents duty to educate and raise children in the faith (by the way, there were Catholic education options readily available) and very wrong to deprive one parent who was fearing for the spiritual wellbeing of his child a role in this very important decision.

and 2) Since the girl knew full well her father’s opposition to public school, that Mom overuling Dad was extraordinarily disrespectful and divisive.
 
Did you discuss Catholic school options? Was there a reason why your wife was opposed to them?
 
I don’t have a problem admitting to my wife that the public school worked out O.K. And she knows that.

I also know many parents who thought it would be fine too - until their child came home pregnant , or on drugs or with anti-Catholic views etc. etc. I expect some reading this post have been in that position

My concern is twofold 1) that it is both parents duty to educate and raise children in the faith (by the way, there were Catholic education options readily available) and very wrong to deprive one parent who was fearing for the spiritual wellbeing of his child a role in this very important decision.

and 2) Since the girl knew full well her father’s opposition to public school, that Mom overuling Dad was extraordinarily disrespectful and divisive.
If this was already answered, I apologize, but were you or your wife the parent that was doing the majority (if not, all) of the homeschooling?
 
decisiontime said:

“…and 2) Since the girl knew full well her father’s opposition to public school, that Mom overuling Dad was extraordinarily disrespectful and divisive.”

Yes. However, it’s not like you could expect to be successful if your wife (who didn’t want to homeschool your daughter) was homeschooling your daughter (who didn’t want to be homeschooled). That’s not a recipe for success, either. There was no way you were going to win that one.

Does your wife not understand how risky it is to show the kids that they can play the two of you off the other? Has a counselor not explained this to her? I have younger kids, and even then, self-preservation requires keeping a united front.

Are there other ongoing disagreements, or just the metadisagreement over not sharing information about disagreements with others? I

Maybe you need a tougher counselor or maybe to have regular appointments with your wife’s favorite priest.
 
There are other issues, of course. I don’t really want to get into specific details about any of them, certainly not without my wife offering her viewpoint. Would be pointless to give just my side on specific issues

I think our problems lie more in our ideas about the nature, rights and responsibilities of the vocation of marriage. I am sure that we have quite a nullible marriage because we clearly do not agree on what it means.
 
I can see now that that is past I should let go of it, but I would like a concession that in principle that robbed me of my fatherly rights.
You seem to have enough current problems that you shouldn’t be concerned with issues from years ago. It sounds as though you’d like your opinions validated at least as much as you’d like real solutions leading to resolution of marital conflicts.

You’ve done years of counselling and Retrouvaille. What do you expect to hear here that you haven’t heard before?
These unresolved disputes (and my unwillingness to be at peace about them being unresolved) has devastated our whole family. I really don’t know if is salvageable.
Your forum name is apt. Perhaps it is time to *decide *to be at peace about things that have happened and aren’t going to change. Perhaps it is time to *decide *to be at peace towards that people who are set in their ways and unwilling/unlikely to change (ie your wife).

The only person in this life you can change is yourself. The only control over the situation is how you behave and react. Perhaps if you have reached the end of the road with regard to couple’s counselling, you should consider personal counselling, with an open mind, to find ways for you to work out how to best behave in the situation you find yourself in.
 
There are other issues, of course. I don’t really want to get into specific details about any of them, certainly not without my wife offering her viewpoint. Would be pointless to give just my side on specific issues

I think our problems lie more in our ideas about the nature, rights and responsibilities of the vocation of marriage. I am sure that we have quite a nullible marriage because we clearly do not agree on what it means.
A marriage is not nullible. It is either a valid marriage or it is null. And you are to presume it is valid. As to it not agreeing on what’s triage means, that had no bearing on the issue. Especially what you think it means 30 years after the fact. What matters is a proper form and intent at the time of the wedding.

Your wife was presumably doing the majority of the home schooling work, it sounds reasonable that she would have the final say. It is certainly reasonable that you should have gotten over that a long time ago. Why does it even come up now.

Again, focus on being kind ( even in small ways) to each other, and agree to keep things private ( with the exception of a spiritual director) .

You can get a spiritual director yourself now, I would certainly start there.

God bless
 
Tafan,

The particular issue of the schooling doesn’t come up again and again. It is rarely mentioned. The principle behind it, that Mom, has the right to overule Dad on matters of child rearing, and do so in a way that clearly and openly demonstrates to the children that we are not united and that unity really doesn’t matter is a prinicple that touches on many, many issues from then until now, and more than likely into the future. (And no she really did not do much of the homeschooling - but that is another topic that we need not get into)

But since you mention we should agree to keep matters private - you come right to my main question. How do we do that? She has never expressed any regrets about any of her indiscretions in that regard. Not even one insincere little " I am sorry".

Whether she continues to blab or not, I don’t know. I have long ago stopped discussing personal things with her because I do not trust that she will not twist and blab. For me to even consider opening up again, I would need to be assured that she understands the hurt that caused me and the polarization it contributed to in the family . I would like her to understand the positon that put me in. When I heard that the children had been told something theyshould not have heard, and they heard HER version of it, I could not stoop to her level by defending myself. But there we face it again. An impasse. She thinks she was O.K. in discussing our problems with friends and children, I think it is wrong to do so without my consent. How do you get past an impasse? As clumsy and inefective as a coin toss would be, I would be exstatic if she would agree to settle impasses with a coin toss. At least I would have a 50% chance of having a say!
 
Decisiontime said:

“I don’t really want to get into specific details about any of them, certainly not without my wife offering her viewpoint. Would be pointless to give just my side on specific issues.”

It’s impossible to tell which of you is being unreasonable without specifics. For the school issue, I think you were being unreasonable. Homeschooling doesn’t prevent teenage pregnancy or other ills and public school doesn’t cause teen pregnancy, drug use, or whatever. Just about nobody gets pregnant actually at school.

Your wife may have gone about this all entirely wrong, but you might be just as wrong about the other issues as you were about school. Without knowing more, none of us can say. We also have no idea what her grievances against you are. Are you rigid, cold, uncommunicative, controlling, etc? We don’t know.

Again, what does your wife say when she’s asked not to drag kids, friends and family into your marital situation? Is she pathologically incapable of keeping her mouth shut, or is she so starved for human warmth in your marriage that she is looking for emotional comfort elsewhere? Is she treating the kids as replacements for the relationship she ought to have with you?

“I think our problems lie more in our ideas about the nature, rights and responsibilities of the vocation of marriage.”

Does your wife have expectations of you that you are not fulfilling?

Think very seriously about what any separation or divorce will do to your relationships with your young adult children. It sounds like its possible that with at least some of your children, the only way you have of salvaging your relationship with them is by improving your relationship with their mother.

underacloud said:

“Perhaps if you have reached the end of the road with regard to couple’s counselling, you should consider personal counselling, with an open mind, to find ways for you to work out how to best behave in the situation you find yourself in.”

That’s a very good idea.
 
Xantippe, It was never my intent with this post to get opinions on who was reasonable or not in any of our conflicts. I could even for the sake of argument concede that I was dead wrong on everything, and that there is actually no better place for the intellectual and spiritual formation of a child than public school. But that would still not address the one thing I came to this forum for: How do you handle an impasse in a marriage on matters where both parents have equal rights and responsibilities" Does anyone have a suggestion for a method for conflict resolution?

Picking apart my judgement on a particular issue such as the school issue (especially when I am making little of my reasoning known and less of my wife’s known) does not one thing to address the main question of “how do you handle an impasses?”. It is particularly unhelpful when you attempt to fill in the blanks by making assumptions like that she does the homeschooling. Not here to argue the issues again, just seeking concrete suggestions for handling impasses.
 
Decisiontime, this issue of privacy within the marriage was never addressed with any if the marriage counselors? It is very basic, and seems a must to resolve.

Again, find a spiritual director.
 
Tafan,

Yes it was brought up with every counselor. None directly said that privacy was important for marital trust as such - but that seems to be their style - to never directly say anything, but to lead you to concluding it on your own. Well, she never has concluded that. She has told me , however, that she did in fact ask her spiritual director (who is a well respected rock star among conservative Catholics - you would all know his name) and he saw no problem with her discussing our problems with friends. So I am told!?!
 
Decisiontime said:

“None directly said that privacy was important for marital trust as such - but that seems to be their style - to never directly say anything, but to lead you to concluding it on your own. Well, she never has concluded that.”

You need a take-charge therapist, not a sit-back-and-cash-the-checks therapist, as this is your most basic problem, and you’ve never come to a resolution on it.

“She has told me , however, that she did in fact ask her spiritual director (who is a well respected rock star among conservative Catholics - you would all know his name) and he saw no problem with her discussing our problems with friends. So I am told!?!”

I think it’s probably all in the phrasing she used to her spiritual director and the phrasing her spiritual director used back.

I personally believe in the wifely code of omerta, except in the case of abuse. I would never discuss with in-real-life friends a serious disagreement with my husband. I confess, I’ve told a few funny stories at his expense to a very good friend, but I have never, in real life, mentioned the stuff that REALLY bothers me. That, I save for him.

Cat and Easter Joy, where are you!!!
 
Decisiontime said:

“Not here to argue the issues again, just seeking concrete suggestions for handling impasses.”

I will give a recent illustration from real life. Forgive the TMI–this example will include graphic information about a real life financial situation, but I don’t think it makes a lot of sense without that. I’m a little bit fuzzy on some of the chronology, but you’ll get the general idea.

We are a somewhat house poor and private school tuition poor upper-middle class family with three kids, driving a $2,000 car. We have just the one car, but can generally get by with just it. Unfortunately, the car has been having more and more mechanical problems. We are trying to save for a minivan, but much of the $200 a month we are saving for that keeps getting sucked into repairs. In the past month, it was emitting this horrible burnt oil smell and we had to take it to the mechanic (there turned out to be leaking brake fluid that we had fixed, plus a slow oil leak that we didn’t bother with, as it’s expensive to fix and the car isn’t worth it) and we had to beg rides to school for the kids and a ride to the grocery store until it was taken care of. On Wednesday, my husband had to beg for a jump at CCD and we got a new battery. At that point, we agreed that we should get a minivan in the summer, by which time we should have enough money to get a nice one (we’re thinking a 2009 or 2010 Kia Sedona, probably in the $14k-$16k range). That was all nicely settled and then on Saturday we to beg for a jump from a guy at a barber shop. My husband got the car to the mechanic’s (keeping the engine running the whole time to make sure it stayed on) and they replaced the starter. The car is now starting much better, but they said not to take any long trips without first replacing the alternator. My husband’s idea was, let’s replace the alternator and then we can stick to our plan of buying a new-to-us minivan in the summer, when we are expecting a bonus.

As you can imagine, after all this drama of begging rides for the kids and begging jumps for the car from complete strangers and having my husband spend hours and hours the day of a child’s birthday waiting around the mechanic’s and having no idea if the car is going to start or just leave us stranded or late for school or whatever, I was totally done. I yelled and yelled and yelled about it. My husband was puzzled–hadn’t I previously agreed that we would wait until the summer to buy a minivan? Wasn’t that the plan? I yelled some more and said we needed to go to the KIA dealership RIGHT NOW, as summer is another 8 months away and heaven only knows how many mechanical issues we’ll have between now and then.

The problem is that we have only about $23k in liquid funds in the bank. That is enough to cover a new-to-us minivan, but we want to buy something nice that will last a long time but feel deeply uncomfortable without at least $10k in the bank (and more would be nice). Also, we’ll probably need to arrange to drive around 100 miles to a dealership that has what we want, a very daunting prospect with our current car issues. We can probably get $2000 as a trade-in and we’ve got about $500 in our car savings fund and some relatives may be able to help, so we’re getting very close to being able to cover the purchase without creating a bad situation for us if we have some other major household emergency. (There would be taxes on top of the price that we need to bear in mind, plus higher insurance costs.)

I eventually cooled down. My husband agreed that we would go to the KIA dealership today and we did. We had a good look at the KIA Sedona minivan and were happy with it. We also hope to see a Mazda5, but I think we both lean toward the Sedona, as it’s bigger.

Our current plan is:
  1. My husband will try to switch out the alternator.
  2. We will nurse the old car along and try to hold out on buying a minivan until the summer.
  3. However, we will also be watching Craigslist and seeing if anything affordable shows up.
So, it sounds kind of like my husband “won,” but I also finally got him to go to the dealership (he’d been dragging his feet), we were able to decide that the Sedona would be right for us, he wrote his parents explaining the situation, and he wants me to watch Craigslist for a deal. Objectively, I suppose not much has changed, but I feel a lot better about the situation and I think we’ll probably manage reasonably well until we can get a new car. I needed for us to go to the dealership to feel like we were making progress, rather than just sitting on our thumbs waiting for the next crisis to come along.

The process is not perfect (the perfect family would have gotten to the same place with less yelling), but I feel reasonably happy about what we’ve done about the situation, even though not much has changed.
 
Tafan,

Yes it was brought up with every counselor. None directly said that privacy was important for marital trust as such - but that seems to be their style - to never directly say anything, but to lead you to concluding it on your own. Well, she never has concluded that. She has told me , however, that she did in fact ask her spiritual director (who is a well respected rock star among conservative Catholics - you would all know his name) and he saw no problem with her discussing our problems with friends. So I am told!?!
I am not buying it. No priest would say that. Go talk to a priest yourself for advice , I don’t think this forum can help you
 
Decisiontime, it sure is frustrating when you start a thread and every question but the one you asked gets answered, eh?

How to resolve an impasse? I don’t think there’s a magic bullet. The options are a) one of you gives in, b) you compromise, c) you agree to let some outside source decide what happens or c) you stay where you are.

Either person can initiate the first option, just by conceding to the other. A compromise would involve holding firm to what you consider absolutely nonnegotiable and asking the other to concede the rest. Take the example of oversharing. It drives you crazy when your wife shares personal information. Maybe you feel it is wrong for her to share anything with anyone. Maybe she feels it is within her rights to share anything with anyone. You could suggest some limitations and see if she finds them reasonable. Like, only sharing with adult friends and not adult children. Or only sharing certain information with the children and when you start a conversation with “this is private” she should keep your confidence. The outside source option would be to rely on the flip of the coin or an abritrator. Of course, it’s hard to make a person abide by a decisin unless they’re really okay with accepting the outcomes. You can’t make someone follow certain rules or behave a certain way.

I believe that if spouses love each other and feel affection and concern for one another, it’s a lot easier to give in or agree to something that you don’t necessarily believe to be the right course of action. I happen to agree with you that spouses should not share marital conflicts or personal information with friends or other family members, but even if I didn’t see anything wrong with it, I would refrain from doing so if it bothered my husband because I love him and want our marriage to be strong. Likewise, he doesn’t think it’s crucial that we send our kids to Catholic school but since I feel so strongly about it, he’s willing to make the sacrifices involved. So it sounds like trite advice when people are suggesting “date night” but maybe it’s not so out of leftfield to suggest that the first step to resolving some of these ongoing disagreements and healing past hurts is to try to develop affection and romance once again. Of course, I realize this is hard to do when one party has really hurt the other.

What do you think?
 
Thank you Nodito!

You are helping to make the obvious obvious to me, Maybe I just have to accept that.

Option A - In my work I have had the unique opportunity of seeing many, many families in action, and of speaking in particular with thousands of women. I understand and appreciate the concept of “happy wife, happy life”. I think that has a big role in why we don’t have many disagreements about issues that many families struggle with (that and the fact that on most things my wife is pretty easy to get along with.)

Option B - I have always offered compromises. For example on the privacy issue I offered that she reserve her discussions to priests, counselors and that she may choose one and only one friend to discuss our matters with. My offers were met with response, no counter offer - she just continued doing as she pleased.

Option C - I came her hoping that people would have all sorts of variants on the coin toss outside source as you call it. I thought something along the lines of a commitment from both spouses to binding arbitration = that rather than agreeing to disagree we agree to find a timely agreement one way or another. But I am seeing that the outside source thing is apparently not used much.

Option D - I’ve been here for many years. It does not get any better. It just drains my soul to see my dire predictions coming true.
 
Decisiontime said:

“(that and the fact that on most things my wife is pretty easy to get along with.)”

That’s really good.

“My offers were met with response, no counter offer - she just continued doing as she pleased.”

Make this appeal in front of a third party (priest or counselor) and don’t leave until you get a promise, and then use the counseling time for accountability. The issue of oversharing should probably be the first thing out of your mouth after “Hello, Dr. Jones.” I don’t think she can do this perfectly (I don’t think she is probably mentally capable of it), but she can do better. Some people are just oversharers. (There was a thread yesterday about a woman visiting an aunt who just could not shut up and listen to anything she said–that is a common female affliction, rather than a unique moral failing of your wife.)

Unfortunately, the colder you get with her, the more she is going to overshare with others.

If this is your big issue, then make it very clear to whatever counselor you see that this is your priority and then do accountability with that counselor.

“Option D - I’ve been here for many years. It does not get any better. It just drains my soul to see my dire predictions coming true.”

It sounds like your wife is otherwise not a bad person, but she has at least one terrible habit. Try to focus on what is good about her outside counseling, and focus on the oversharing in counseling.
 
Also, is your wife one of those dear, sweet people who just can’t seem to hear what anybody else is saying? The soundtrack in their own heads is so absorbing that they can’t hear any competing music.

If so, that’s another thing to bring up in counseling.

You may be in a spiral: the more she blabs, the colder you get, the more she blabs, the colder you get, the more she blabs, etc. The only way out of the spiral is to stop one of those two elements. Either you need to warm up, or she needs to blab less. Either way, it is theoretically possible for either one of you to unilaterally pull out of this death spiral.
 
After all the excellent advice you have been given this is going to sound trite. But here it is-advice my sponsor gave me some 28 years ago in my early days of sobriety.

“Let go, let God”

Let go of your anger and resentment about the the school, about her blabbing, about everything else she does or has done that bugs you. Anger and resentment hurts only ourselves. You can not control how your wife acts but you have 100% control on how you choose to react to it. you can continue to harbor anger and resentment or you can let go-and revel in the knowledge that God loves you unconditionally, that he wants you to be happy and you NEVER should depend on another to allow you to be happy.

“For the past is but a memory , tomorrow is but a vision. But today well lived makes every yesterday a memory of happiness, and every tomorrow a vision of hope.”
 
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