Clearing up the myths and truths about Vatican II

[dominic_aquinas]

Totally agree. And I think there should be at least one Latin Mass per weekend in every diocese, minimum. It wouldn’t be achieved instantly, but is it not something that could be achieved within 10-15 years?

Amen! Amen! The Latin Mass really helped to strengthen my faith. Another church in my area just added a Latin Mass and we had an Archbishop appointed who is very enthusiastic for it so I’m guessing we’ll see more soon. I’m guessing within 10-15 years it will be fairly common. Already in Rome, the Latin Mass is offered everyday in the Basillica.

Dominus vobiscum.
Et cum spiritu tuo.

 

[Tony_the_mad]

You don’t really have to be a globetrotter. I just have to drive across town to be in a parish where no one speaks much English, and I live in the middle of Kansas. When I lived in California I could walk about six blocks to a parish where every mass was celebrated entirely in Spanish.

For people on almost any other continent in the world, this sort of linguistic diversity is much more the rule than the exception. Great Britain has four major native languages in a land area roughly equal to that of Kansas – and that doesn’t begin to touch on immigrant languages.

I certainly don’t think that unity in the faith requires uniformity, but I think it would be pretty nice, particularly in modern American where immigration is such a sensitive topic, if every Catholic knew at least the basic responses of the mass in Latin, no matter what his native language happened to be.

There’s a great story about two groups of displaced French and Germans meeting on a train platform in the 1940s shortly after the end of WWII – very tense, until someone intoned “Credo in Unum Deum”. Then they all sang the entire Creed together, in Latin. Hard to imagine that without choking up. And it’s nothing more than what Vatican II called for.

As touching as that story is and my dad had similar stories, it is only one half of the coin. My dad was in the Navy so he understood equally (or failed to understand equally depending on your perspective) the mass in Spain as he did in America.

The other side of the coin is the numerous ethnic parishes that existed in the US even when they were all Latin. For some visiting a Catholic Church of another ethnicity was almost as bad as visiting a Protestant Church.

I attended a Spanish mass once and it was invigorating to me, much more invigorating than a Latin mass could be. For one I know more Spanish than Latin. For another, the people there knew Spanish and participated with zeal. It was not a dead language to them. Finally, it was an opportunity for me to immerse myself in their culture while recognizing most of the elements of the Liturgy. The differences somehow accented the important similarities. I don’t feel that we could have been more of one Church even if we all suddenly spoke tongues much less if we suddenly had to all speak a language that none of us knew.

 

[bslorence]

I don’t feel that we could have been more of one Church even if we all suddenly spoke tongues much less if we suddenly had to all speak a language that none of us knew.

I agree that the question of liturgical language is difficult and complicated. I don’t think it’s at all black-and-white, especially now that a few generations of Catholics have been raised without any exposure to Latin at all. Latin is as foreign to most Catholics now as any foreign language–whereas for Catholics born in the mid-1950s or earlier, it was something that was just a normal part of their life from the beginning.

That being said, I suspect that the bishops at Vatican II had a good reason for instructing that all Catholics should be able to make the basic responses of the mass in Latin. I suppose among other things it connects us very concretely to our liturgical tradition. There is something very good about singing the Agnus Dei in more or less exactly the same way that St. Francis, St. Kateri, and St. Therese would have known it. And I don’t know why that part of Vatican II has gone almost entirely unheeded. Even now we keep some ancient words from a dead language in the liturgy – Alleluia, Amen, Hosanna – and I’ve never heard any one express concern about not knowing what they mean.

 

[Tony_the_mad]

I agree that the question of liturgical language is difficult and complicated. I don’t think it’s at all black-and-white, especially now that a few generations of Catholics have been raised without any exposure to Latin at all. Latin is as foreign to most Catholics now as any foreign language–whereas for Catholics born in the mid-1950s or earlier, it was something that was just a normal part of their life from the beginning.

That being said, I suspect that the bishops at Vatican II had a good reason for instructing that all Catholics should be able to make the basic responses of the mass in Latin. I suppose among other things it connects us very concretely to our liturgical tradition. There is something very good about singing the Agnus Dei in more or less exactly the same way that St. Francis, St. Kateri, and St. Therese would have known it. And I don’t know why that part of Vatican II has gone almost entirely unheeded. Even now we keep some ancient words from a dead language in the liturgy – Alleluia, Amen, Hosanna – and I’ve never heard any one express concern about not knowing what they mean.

In the US there are some parts that are still done in Latin sometimes. This is particularly true for short phrases such as Kyrie et liason. (I know I must be spelling it wrong.) Agnes Dei might be another good example. We have done it once or twice. I like the unification that some Latin phrases gives with an earlier Church.

I have nothing against ‘dead’ words and phrases. Many people know what Eli, Eli lama sabachtani means (even if they can’t spell it). One can also include technical phrases like consubstantial, incarnate, etc. It is good for people to adapt to the culture of the Church.

We do have to be careful not to overwhelm people or to create unnecessary stumbling blocks. That is the heart of the debate, because different people have very different ideas of what exactly is important enough to have people learn the language of the Church and what isn’t quite so important enough that it is better to remove a possible stumbling block.

 

[Elizabeth502]

In the US there are some parts that are still done in Latin sometimes. This is particularly true for short phrases such as Kyrie et liason. (I know I must be spelling it wrong.) Agnes Dei might be another good example. We have done it once or twice. I like the unification that some Latin phrases gives with an earlier Church.

Kyrie Eleison

Agnus Dei

 

[dominic_aquinas]

I agree that the question of liturgical language is difficult and complicated. I don’t think it’s at all black-and-white, especially now that a few generations of Catholics have been raised without any exposure to Latin at all. Latin is as foreign to most Catholics now as any foreign language–whereas for Catholics born in the mid-1950s or earlier, it was something that was just a normal part of their life from the beginning.

I think a lot of people tend to make a big deal about active participation and understanding every single word in the Mass. I remember during the Christmas Midnight Latin Mass at my parish, the priest did the Mass by candlelight so no one could even see their Missal. He said, before Mass started, “don’t worry about following along in the Missal. People should just simply unite their intentions with his intentions and focus on the Divine Presence of the Eucharist.” Watching our priest in candelight lead us up to the mount of Calvary for Christ’s Eternal Sacrifice while the choir sung Gregorian Chants was beyond words. It was an absolutely miraculous Mass. That to me is true participation. Besides once you hear the same Latin phrases a thousand times, you really start to understand it. Dominus vobiscum. Et cum spiritu tuo. It’s not really a big deal. People catch on.

 

[Francoist]

I think a lot of people tend to make a big deal about active participation and understanding every single word in the Mass. I remember during the Christmas Midnight Latin Mass at my parish, the priest did the Mass by candlelight so no one could even see their Missal. He said, before Mass started, “don’t worry about following along in the Missal. People should just simply unite their intentions with his intentions and focus on the Divine Presence of the Eucharist.” Watching our priest in candelight lead us up to the mount of Calvary for Christ’s Eternal Sacrifice while the choir sung Gregorian Chants was beyond words. It was an absolutely miraculous Mass. That to me is true participation. Besides once you hear the same Latin phrases a thousand times, you really start to understand it. Dominus vobiscum. Et cum spiritu tuo. It’s not really a big deal. People catch on.

The Tridentine Latin Mass strikes me as very Hebrew. I love it.

 

[Cat]

I think a lot of people tend to make a big deal about active participation and understanding every single word in the Mass. I remember during the Christmas Midnight Latin Mass at my parish, the priest did the Mass by candlelight so no one could even see their Missal. He said, before Mass started, “don’t worry about following along in the Missal. People should just simply unite their intentions with his intentions and focus on the Divine Presence of the Eucharist.” Watching our priest in candelight lead us up to the mount of Calvary for Christ’s Eternal Sacrifice while the choir sung Gregorian Chants was beyond words. It was an absolutely miraculous Mass. That to me is true participation. Besides once you hear the same Latin phrases a thousand times, you really start to understand it. Dominus vobiscum. Et cum spiritu tuo. It’s not really a big deal. People catch on.

Refer to Boldface (mine) above. I think you’re making an assumption that you can’t make, mainly that everyone is like you when it comes to foreign languages. That’s not true.

I’m 55. I’m a musician who has been involved with Latin in music (oratorios, etc.) all my life. I still don’t get it. I can’t remember from practice to practice what the songs mean. (I have to look at the bottom of the page to see the translation.)

You say “people catch on.” No, they don’t. Not all of them. Not most of them. Not at all.

I don’t “get” the little bit of Latin that is used in our OF Masses. I know that we are using it out of obedience to the Church, because the Church wants to honor the traditions of the Church by giving Latin a place in the Mass, and I submit to that. But I don’t understand it. I know what it is supposed to mean, but when it is used instead of the English, it is jarring to me, and I have a difficult time concentratiing on the meaning of the phrases because I am forced to “figure out” what the phrase means. I have to switch from praying in the spirit to praying with my mind, because I don’t know what the phrases mean automatically, and I have to stop and think and remember what they mean.

To me, “Kyrie eleison” (which is Greek, BTW), sounds like gibberish. I don’t get any warm, awestruck “feeling” from hearing this phrase. I have to think, "That means, “Lord, have mercy.” But I don’t get it–how one earth can the word, “Kyrie” mean “Lord???” It doesn’t even look or sound like “Lord”! And same for “eleison.” How can this mean, “Have mercy???” It’s just one word–how does it mean two word?!

I’m just taking the word of the Church that this phrase really does mean “Lord, have mercy!” Thank goodness I trust the Church, but if I DIDN’T trust the Church, perhaps because I or someone I knew had been abused, then I would probably not trust what they were telling me about translations of foreign phrases. I could always go check it out in a secular setting, but I probably wouldn’t take the time and make the effort to do that.

Perhaps if I had learned Greek back in school, I would at least understand what the origin of the words are, and maybe then it would make more sense to me. But at this time in my life, we might just as well say, “Cowabunga.” It’s a nonsense phrase to me, and frankly, I don’t like using nonsense phrases in church. I don’t get any warm fuzzies from using a foreign language in the Mass.

But I use it out of obedience, and that’s definitely a good thing for Christians to practice.

dominic_aquinas, I think a lot more people are like me than are like you. We don’t speak up about this, because it makes us look kind of stupid. Lucky you, for having the ability to think in two languages or more! But many of us have a hard enough time thinking about the things of God in our own language, let alone in a foreign language.

I really hope and pray that the Church will allow us to keep our beautiful heart languages in the Mass forever. I think it would be a major hindrance for believers if all the Masses were returned to all Latin all over the world. I think that the Holy Spirit directed the pastors at the Vatican II council to make Masses available in the heart languages, and I think all of us should obey and respect His leading and realize that there are a lot more people like me than like dominic_aquinas.

 

[JackyB]

So there you have it, directly from Pope Benedict, the Church spoke clearly but was drowned out by the media and sabotaged from within. Catholic education was subverted in a non-coincidental moral meltdown of secular universities. Dissidents inside the Church also caused confusion for the flock.

Anyone reading this must understand that the period from 1965 to 1968 was a time where we had strong Christian communities, neighbors were neighbors and marriage and being chaste before marriage were very important. We trusted our government more, but by 1968, with the arrival of the radicals, and the Vietnam War, which had been officially raging for four years and with no end in sight, and the sex without love revolution distracting us, it was the only the beginning of the atrocities to come:

1973 With the legalization of abortion, I lost faith in my government. With the legalization of graphic pornography, I lost more. The Vietnam War was winding down and the Hippies left their followers with no Woodstock Nation, just porn, fornication and dope. The regular media began a gradual slide into degeneracy and immorality. I watched it unfold, so I began to look at some media with distrust.

1980s Porn on cable. Movies and television becoming more and more sexualized and portraying the dysfunctional. What began in the late 1970s was solidified by the media - all media - in the mid 1980s.

And it would just get worse until just recently, as the anarchists, radicals and marxists believed - wrongly - that they would consolidate their gains, but now, thanks to Pope John Paul II and the recent clear statements of Pope Benedict, the ship is being set right and the cloud of confusion is being lifted. The truth about Vatican II is going forth.

Vatican II is coming to be fully revealed as it was meant to be by all. The works of the devil are becoming visible by all, and Catholic renewal is occurring in the seminaries:

ncregister.com/daily-news/benedicts-men-u.s.-vocations-strengthen-during-his-eight-year-papacy/

To my brothers and sisters in Christ, just as he was stepping down as Pope, Pope Benedict has left us with two key guides and cleared up the myths and how they came to be spread. Have hope.

The tide is turning, right now.

God bless,
Ed

Thank you for these words, I have much hope for the future of our beloved Church, now more than ever before.

 

[JustaServant]

Sarcasm?

Anyway, Vatican II is still being “interpreted” and debated.

The thread was started at the request of an unnamed poster, so, no sarcasm is intended.

 

[crazzeto]

Everything that goes on in public in the Catholic Church is done by the decree or permission of the bishops and the pope. No bishop or pope can claim they have been ignorant of what’s been going on, what is still going on. So, anyone who dares to say that the Vatican II Council was wrongly implemented is indicting and charging John Paul II and all the bishops with episcopal negligence, malfeasance, or even “high crimes and misdemeanors.” We must use REASON, and not be “apologists” in the worse sense of that word.

Except that it was badly implemented, and the Holy Father (who him self would bare guilt by your assertion) lays this out in the document linked by edwest2. In some cases the mistakes were honest, though in at least some the mistakes were intentional and the work of heretics trying to implement ‘change’ not called for ever by the council.

Even if Cardinals Karol Wojtyła and Joseph Ratziger did it right themselves, they still saw and suffered the effects of communities where the council documents were fundamentally misunderstood.

There were great and many problems with Vatican II, but if we’re honest there frequently are with councils.

 

[JustaServant]

So there you have it, directly from Pope Benedict, the Church spoke clearly but was drowned out by the media and sabotaged from within. Catholic education was subverted in a non-coincidental moral meltdown of secular universities. Dissidents inside the Church also caused confusion for the flock.

Anyone reading this must understand that the period from 1965 to 1968 was a time where we had strong Christian communities, neighbors were neighbors and marriage and being chaste before marriage were very important. We trusted our government more, but by 1968, with the arrival of the radicals, and the Vietnam War, which had been officially raging for four years and with no end in sight, and the sex without love revolution distracting us, it was the only the beginning of the atrocities to come:

1973 With the legalization of abortion, I lost faith in my government. With the legalization of graphic pornography, I lost more. The Vietnam War was winding down and the Hippies left their followers with no Woodstock Nation, just porn, fornication and dope. The regular media began a gradual slide into degeneracy and immorality. I watched it unfold, so I began to look at some media with distrust.

1980s Porn on cable. Movies and television becoming more and more sexualized and portraying the dysfunctional. What began in the late 1970s was solidified by the media - all media - in the mid 1980s.

And it would just get worse until just recently, as the anarchists, radicals and marxists believed - wrongly - that they would consolidate their gains, but now, thanks to Pope John Paul II and the recent clear statements of Pope Benedict, the ship is being set right and the cloud of confusion is being lifted. The truth about Vatican II is going forth.

Vatican II is coming to be fully revealed as it was meant to be by all. The works of the devil are becoming visible by all, and Catholic renewal is occurring in the seminaries:

ncregister.com/daily-news/benedicts-men-u.s.-vocations-strengthen-during-his-eight-year-papacy/

To my brothers and sisters in Christ, just as he was stepping down as Pope, Pope Benedict has left us with two key guides and cleared up the myths and how they came to be spread. Have hope.

The tide is turning, right now.

God bless,
Ed

Thanks Ed for you great posts.

 

[pnewton]

Whenever I hear the debate over Latin, the words of St. Paul resound in my head, “Though I speak with tongues of men angels…” I prefer some Latin in the Mass. I promote and have expanded this at my parish. Yet I realize it is no more than a tool. In this case, it is a unitive tool bring our two parish languages together, as well as our parish together with the Church universal. However, I will never place the tool above the people the tool serves, leaving charity behind for

 

[dominic_aquinas]

Refer to Boldface (mine) above.
Cat;10519906:

Refer to Boldface (mine) above. I think you’re making an assumption that you can’t make, mainly that everyone is like you when it comes to foreign languages. That’s not true.

I’m 55. I’m a musician who has been involved with Latin in music (oratorios, etc.) all my life. I still don’t get it. I can’t remember from practice to practice what the songs mean. (I have to look at the bottom of the page to see the translation.)

You say “people catch on.” No, they don’t. Not all of them. Not most of them. Not at all.

I don’t “get” the little bit of Latin that is used in our OF Masses. I know that we are using it out of obedience to the Church, because the Church wants to honor the traditions of the Church by giving Latin a place in the Mass, and I submit to that. But I don’t understand it. I know what it is supposed to mean, but when it is used instead of the English, it is jarring to me, and I have a difficult time concentratiing on the meaning of the phrases because I am forced to “figure out” what the phrase means. I have to switch from praying in the spirit to praying with my mind, because I don’t know what the phrases mean automatically, and I have to stop and think and remember what they mean.

To me, “Kyrie eleison” (which is Greek, BTW), sounds like gibberish. I don’t get any warm, awestruck “feeling” from hearing this phrase. I have to think, "That means, “Lord, have mercy.” But I don’t get it–how one earth can the word, “Kyrie” mean “Lord???” It doesn’t even look or sound like “Lord”! And same for “eleison.” How can this mean, “Have mercy???” It’s just one word–how does it mean two word?!

I’m just taking the word of the Church that this phrase really does mean “Lord, have mercy!” Thank goodness I trust the Church, but if I DIDN’T trust the Church, perhaps because I or someone I knew had been abused, then I would probably not trust what they were telling me about translations of foreign phrases. I could always go check it out in a secular setting, but I probably wouldn’t take the time and make the effort to do that.

Perhaps if I had learned Greek back in school, I would at least understand what the origin of the words are, and maybe then it would make more sense to me. But at this time in my life, we might just as well say, “Cowabunga.” It’s a nonsense phrase to me, and frankly, I don’t like using nonsense phrases in church. I don’t get any warm fuzzies from using a foreign language in the Mass.

But I use it out of obedience, and that’s definitely a good thing for Christians to practice.

dominic_aquinas, I think a lot more people are like me than are like you. We don’t speak up about this, because it makes us look kind of stupid. Lucky you, for having the ability to think in two languages or more! But many of us have a hard enough time thinking about the things of God in our own language, let alone in a foreign language.

I really hope and pray that the Church will allow us to keep our beautiful heart languages in the Mass forever. I think it would be a major hindrance for believers if all the Masses were returned to all Latin all over the world. I think that the Holy Spirit directed the pastors at the Vatican II council to make Masses available in the heart languages, and I think all of us should obey and respect His leading and realize that there are a lot more people like me than like dominic_aquinas.

.

Why do you need to understand every single word the priest is saying? I can see you’ve never been to a Latin Mass. Well, I have a real shocker for you: many parts of the mass are inaudible, as in silent, as in the priest is whispering and you can’t hear a word he’s saying. Scary, huh? In fact, he has his back to you so you can’t even lip read. Now that’s really scary. Many people that first experience this are uncomfortable, they don’t like it. Why? Because the priest, whispering with his back to you, is making you focus on God alone. And that is exactly the unmistakable feeling of the Latin Mass. I suggest you find one and go see for yourself. I guarantee you’ll hate it. But, trust me on this: just keep going. Let it work it’s subtle, time-tested magic on you.

To me Latin IS the heart language. In fact, I’ll call it the heart-soul-and-mind language. I hope the heart-soul-and-mind language spreads across the entire world and is available once again in every Catholic parish so that they may all be a symbol of unity.

From a purely practical point, Latin is also extremely important to know to expand our vocabulary and train the mind. It’s amazing how many words in English are based in Latin; words like Pater for Father where we get Paternal in English. We should push ourselves and not give in to sloth or dispair when it comes to learning things. Let’s give God the best we can be.

 

[crazzeto]

Whenever I hear the debate over Latin, the words of St. Paul resound in my head, “Though I speak with tongues of men angels…” I prefer some Latin in the Mass. I promote and have expanded this at my parish. Yet I realize it is no more than a tool. In this case, it is a unitive tool bring our two parish languages together, as well as our parish together with the Church universal. However, I will never place the tool above the people the tool serves, leaving charity behind for

I find it nice that my diocese is going to build a EF only parish (or at least is considering it, I think the community support is there). I’m 100% this because on a personal level I would like the ability to have this worship be my normative worship.

But you hit the nail on the head at the end there, charity is key and I find it lacking on the side of ‘EF radicals’ as I think of them. Both masses are good, and I have to admit OF is in the general case more useful in todays culture if one is looking for normative worship. The masses would be utterly bewildered by an EF mass, in my estimation there’s no going back in the general case. I do give thanks there are many ‘youngsters’ like me who never knew EF before Vatican II (or anything for that matter) but still appreciate this form of worship.

But what is an acient form of worship without love, what is the Mass even without love? Isn’t the that the whole point of Paul’s discourse on charity? It’s so central, nothing that we do has value without love.

 

[pnewton]

… at the end there, charity is key and I find it lacking on the side of ‘EF radicals’ as I think of them.

I would like to add lest anyone think I am speaking of those here, I do not find this absence of charity over this issue here very often. The moderation keeps us on the straight and narrow, as it were, though at time I know it seems to be too much to some. I recently spent some time reading another forum because of posters coming over here from there and found a spirit that is remarkably different. It was scandalous with meanness and all but devoid of charity. I think total lack of rules allow for the base nature to overtake one who would be spiritual, which in turn allow us to grow more like Christ and less like the Enemy.

If JR was here (as some suggested) he would remind us to speak as the Church speaks in this and all things.

Now back to VII, I think the emphasis on Latin here does not represent the deeper issues some have had with the council, namely the theological reformulations. I believe though there is a parallel. The Church desires, in charity, to make both “lexes” (worship and belief) more understandable to the Masses. Yes, a massive undertaken to educate in Latin would be one avenue, but that has its understandable limitation. Likewise, an educational initiative to teach the older formulation would also be an option. I regret we live in a time where so many would not be open to this, but it is what it is. The Church is a good mother that is willing to take time and come down to the level of the child to speak. In this sense, I do not think the true spirit of Vatical II will ever be implemented, though the process alone is a laudable goal. We are changing so rapidly in our society, exponentially faster than any other point in history, that the Church is trying to hit a moving target. In charity, striving for the best way to communicate and in charity assuring that truth is not lost in the process.

 

[dominic_aquinas]

I would like to add lest anyone think I am speaking of those here, I do not find this absence of charity over this issue here very often. The moderation keeps us on the straight and narrow, as it were, though at time I know it seems to be too much to some. I recently spent some time reading another forum because of posters coming over here from there and found a spirit that is remarkably different. It was scandalous with meanness and all but devoid of charity. I think total lack of rules allow for the base nature to overtake one who would be spiritual, which in turn allow us to grow more like Christ and less like the Enemy.

If JR was here (as some suggested) he would remind us to speak as the Church speaks in this and all things.

Now back to VII, I think the emphasis on Latin here does not represent the deeper issues some have had with the council, namely the theological reformulations. I believe though there is a parallel. The Church desires, in charity, to make both “lexes” (worship and belief) more understandable to the Masses. Yes, a massive undertaken to educate in Latin would be one avenue, but that has its understandable limitation. Likewise, an educational initiative to teach the older formulation would also be an option. I regret we live in a time where so many would not be open to this, but it is what it is. The Church is a good mother that is willing to take time and come down to the level of the child to speak. In this sense, I do not think the true spirit of Vatical II will ever be implemented, though the process alone is a laudable goal. We are changing so rapidly in our society, exponentially faster than any other point in history, that the Church is trying to hit a moving target. In charity, striving for the best way to communicate and in charity assuring that truth is not lost in the process.

I think you really hit the nail on the head. The Church needs to stop trying to hit a moving target. It needs to lead culture, not follow it. A good plan would be to simply return to what worked and stick with it. There must have been plenty of charity back before Vatican II to create saints like St. Francis, St. Dominic, St Vincent de Paul, St John Bosco, etc, etc, etc.

 

[pnewton]

I think you really hit the nail on the head. The Church needs to stop trying to hit a moving target. It needs to lead culture, not follow it. A good plan would be to simply return to what worked and stick with it.

I do not see this as working. The Church would not lead but become a cloister. We would be an eight-track tape without a player. Have you ever been where a street corner preacher was yelling out a sermon to passerbys? They keep on walking because there is no connection between him and the pedestrians. He becomes an oddity. The Church on the other hand has always strived to reach down. As St. Paul said, “to be all things to all people.” Should God have remained in heaven rather than humbly taking on flesh?

In a fuller sense, the Church is doing what she has always done. She went to Rome instead of Jerusalem because that was the seat of power. She changed to Latin instead of the language of the Lord because that was best way to reach the world. As a side note, percentagewise, there were far more saints under Aramaic than Latin. Of course, martrdom had a lot to do with that. Yes, there were great saints pre Vatican II, but we also experience the two greatest periods of falling away, the East-West schism and the Reformation.

 

[crazzeto]

I do not see this as working. The Church would not lead but become a cloister. We would be an eight-track tape without a player. Have you ever been where a street corner preacher was yelling out a sermon to passerbys? They keep on walking because there is no connection between him and the pedestrians. He becomes an oddity. The Church on the other hand has always strived to reach down. As St. Paul said, “to be all things to all people.” Should God have remained in heaven rather than humbly taking on flesh?

I’ve gone back and forth on the subject you discuss here. On the one hand, your right in the general case regarding the street preacher, on the other hand how many Saints famously created followings street preaching. Its something that can work, but must be done right.

But I think there’s a modern form of street preaching. That’s being on the internet, though not on a forum like this necessarily. I would think something more like evangelizing and ‘preaching’ (if you will) via facebook. Always in charity of course, always with an eye on building faith in the end. I think the church can lead this way, and it has come to recognize this recently. Rightly this movement was lead by Priests here and there, Father Barron for instance. Now lay believers are moving in as well, and as long as they can be careful to stick very closely to the teachings of Holy Mother Church can be effective. I would offer ‘Catholic Memes’ website and facebook group. Well over 50,000 followers not all Catholic using humerus messages to promote orthodox Christianity. Street preaching at work.

 

[Armor_of_Light]

Thanks JAServant!

…just subscribing…

This ‘EF radical’ is just learning and keeping his mouth shut.