Clearing up the myths and truths about Vatican II

[curlycool89]

To me Latin IS the heart language.

What’s your point? You’ve taken a subjective phrase that Cat was using (that’s not to discredit what Cat was saying, that’s just the type of language that was used) by responding with your own subjective opinion.

In fact, I’ll call it the heart-soul-and-mind language.

And now this is a normative claim without any evidence to back it up. Well, except for your own subjective opinion that you expressed above.

It’s amazing how many words in English are based in Latin; words like Pater for Father where we get Paternal in English.

Any many other words in English are based on a hodgepodge of French, German, and many others. If you didn’t know, English is in fact derived from German and is linguistically considered to be a West Germanic language, not a Romance language.

You can thank the influence of the English Aristocracy for the French/Latin (through French) influence because they were Norman.

 

[ProVobis]

You say “people catch on.” No, they don’t. Not all of them. Not most of them. Not at all.

I don’t “get” the little bit of Latin that is used in our OF Masses.

Yet people are quite accepting of “E Pluribus Unum” (on currency and on flags) like it were gospel truth. It seems to leave one with a deeper and more lasting impression than any English rendering, though I’m sure many Anglophones have this stubborn mental block against anything that’s not in English. There’s no real rationalization for it.

 

[Mike30]

**Latin Latin woe is me

It killed the Romans and now it’s killing me**.

Old anti Latin student saying.

I have never understood the deep antipathy and even hatred that so many appear to have for Latin.

 

[ProVobis]

If you didn’t know, English is in fact derived from German and is linguistically considered to be a West Germanic language, not a Romance language.

You can thank the influence of the English Aristocracy for the French/Latin (through French) influence because they were Norman.

Those lousy aristocrats insisting on using all those multi-syllable words. The nerve!

 

[crazzeto]

**Latin Latin woe is me

It killed the Romans and now it’s killing me**.

Old anti Latin student saying.

I have never understood the deep antipathy and even hatred that so many appear to have for Latin.

I love it, and while I never studied it I find my spanish gives me a good point of reference. In fact love of the language and desire to learn it might well play into my love of EF.

 

[dominic_aquinas]

What’s your point? You’ve taken a subjective phrase that Cat was using (that’s not to discredit what Cat was saying, that’s just the type of language that was used) by responding with your own subjective opinion.

And now this is a normative claim without any evidence to back it up. Well, except for your own subjective opinion that you expressed above.

Any many other words in English are based on a hodgepodge of French, German, and many others. If you didn’t know, English is in fact derived from German and is linguistically considered to be a West Germanic language, not a Romance language.

You can thank the influence of the English Aristocracy for the French/Latin (through French) influence because they were Norman.

It’s called humor, Mr. Spock–the tendency of things to provoke laughter and provide amusement. By the way, that’s a Latin word too.

 

[dominic_aquinas]

I do not see this as working. The Church would not lead but become a cloister. We would be an eight-track tape without a player. Have you ever been where a street corner preacher was yelling out a sermon to passerbys? They keep on walking because there is no connection between him and the pedestrians. He becomes an oddity. The Church on the other hand has always strived to reach down. As St. Paul said, “to be all things to all people.” Should God have remained in heaven rather than humbly taking on flesh?

In a fuller sense, the Church is doing what she has always done. She went to Rome instead of Jerusalem because that was the seat of power. She changed to Latin instead of the language of the Lord because that was best way to reach the world. As a side note, percentagewise, there were far more saints under Aramaic than Latin. Of course, martrdom had a lot to do with that. Yes, there were great saints pre Vatican II, but we also experience the two greatest periods of falling away, the East-West schism and the Reformation.

Yes, that was the rational for Vatican II so that the Church wouldn’t become a cloister. The changes were supposed to usher in a new springtime. Unfortunately, we somehow went from green shoots to falling leaves pretty quickly. The Church opened it’s arms to embrace the world and the world wrestled it to the ground. I think the safest strategy wouldn’t be to go back to the last known point of success. Going all the way back to the beginning would be very difficult and unneccessary since there were very successful periods just recently. When I think of speaking to the current culture, I think of the saying, “He that marries the spirit of the times will soon become a widower.” I notice so many young people and young families at the Latin Mass it’s striking. Good fruits. It must somehow speak to them. It’s speaks to me, I’m not that old.

 

[Armor_of_Light]

Yes, that was the rational for Vatican II so that the Church wouldn’t become a cloister. The changes were supposed to usher in a new springtime. Unfortunately, we somehow went from green shoots to falling leaves pretty quickly. The Church opened it’s arms to embrace the world and the world wrestled it to the ground. I think the safest strategy wouldn’t be to go back to the last known point of success. Going all the way back to the beginning would be very difficult and unneccessary since there were very successful periods just recently. When I think of speaking to the current culture, I think of the saying, “He that marries the spirit of the times will soon become a widower.” I notice so many young people and young families at the Latin Mass it’s striking. Good fruits. It must somehow speak to them. It’s speaks to me, I’m not that old.

Instead of a cloister…could we imagine the church to be a fortress? A shelter? Somewhere that people would want to come to get away from evil…a sanctuary.

 

[Francoist]

Our Lord seems not to have adapted Himself to the spirit of the time, whatever that means. He proclaimed the Truth, which was Himself, and was crucified.

The first homily given by Pope Francis proves the need for an unworldly attitude. “If we don’t preach Christ we’re preaching the devil” or words to that effect. We must always be focused and centered on Christ. The world is not… so let us cling to Christ.

The parts of the EF said in a low voice are part of what reminds me of the Hebrews. You don’t know what the high priest is saying to God all the time. It isn’t even necessary to know. The prayers are effective whether you understand them or not. To participate in the Mass what you must principally contribute is your intention.

 

[ProVobis]

The parts of the EF said in a low voice are part of what reminds me of the Hebrews. You don’t know what the high priest is saying to God all the time. It isn’t even necessary to know. The prayers are effective whether you understand them or not. To participate in the Mass what you must principally contribute is your intention.

Good points. Those who wish to vernacularize the EF seem to fail to understand the principle behind Trent’s submissa voce.

 

[dominic_aquinas]

Good points. Those who wish to vernacularize the EF seem to fail to understand the principle behind Trent’s submissa voce.

Exactly, the priest is entering the Holy of Holies where only the High Priest is allowed to go. We follow him with our intentions. It’s beautful!

 

[curlycool89]

Exactly, the priest is entering the Holy of Holies where only the High Priest is allowed to go. We follow him with our intentions. It’s beautful!

That analogy broke down quickly.

There is no Holy of Holies anymore. The Holy of Holies that the Temple had was only a shadow of the True one. Also, the Catholic priesthood is not equivalent to the OT priesthood, nor are priest equivalent to a High Priest.

If you’ve read Hebrews, you’d know that Jesus (our only true High Priest, who has a High Priesthood that does not pass away) entered the true Holy of Holies in Heaven with his own precious blood.

(This weeks Office of Reading is centred around Hebrews)

 

[Lormar]

It’s called humor, Mr. Spock–the tendency of things to provoke laughter and provide amusement. By the way, that’s a Latin word too.

Do you know that when I took Latin in high school, I was amazed to find out how many of our words come from Latin? Sorry. Didn’t mean to interrupt (there’s another one! )!

 

[dominic_aquinas]

That analogy broke down quickly.

There is no Holy of Holies anymore. The Holy of Holies that the Temple had was only a shadow of the True one. Also, the Catholic priesthood is not equivalent to the OT priesthood, nor are priest equivalent to a High Priest.

If you’ve read Hebrews, you’d know that Jesus (our only true High Priest, who has a High Priesthood that does not pass away) entered the true Holy of Holies in Heaven with his own precious blood.

(This weeks Office of Reading is centred around Hebrews)

I would be careful with what you are saying. You might want to study up on this before you disagree with the entire Tradition of the Catholic Faith. From the prayers at the foot of the altar in the Latin mass: “that with pure minds we may worthily enter into the holy of holies”

 

[october_baby]

Could we remember that Vatican II gave a stipulation that both forms of Mass could be
said. In fact Pope Benedict XVI reminded the bishops of this. It is not an either or
proposition. The Latin Mass is available in parishes that allow it (actually, according to
Vatican II, ALL parishes should have a Latin Masses available.) So under ideal circumstances
both options should be available.

 

[dominic_aquinas]

That analogy broke down quickly.

There is no Holy of Holies anymore. The Holy of Holies that the Temple had was only a shadow of the True one. Also, the Catholic priesthood is not equivalent to the OT priesthood, nor are priest equivalent to a High Priest.

If you’ve read Hebrews, you’d know that Jesus (our only true High Priest, who has a High Priesthood that does not pass away) entered the true Holy of Holies in Heaven with his own precious blood.

(This weeks Office of Reading is centred around Hebrews)

I hate to break the news to you but this is the symbolism at every Mass. The priest, acts in persona Christi, as the High Priest of old. That’s why all the vestments and incense. He’s the High Priest making a sacrifice on our behalf. The victim is Christ. Unfortunately, all this symbolism gets lost in the OF that’s probably why you’re confused.

 

[pnewton]

The changes were supposed to usher in a new springtime. Unfortunately, we somehow went from green shoots to falling leaves pretty quickly. The Church opened it’s arms to embrace the world and the world wrestled it to the ground…

I have noticed this is a reoccurring theme - the underlying difference that results in a different perspective. I see the springtime and I see the hope that the Church has. Where the soil is fertile, there is growth.

 

[pnewton]

I hate to break the news to you but this is the symbolism at every Mass. The priest, acts in persona Christi, as the High Priest of old. That’s why all the vestments and incense.

I do not think the poster was confused at all. Did you not the reference to Hebrews? If anything, comparing vestments to those of the OT priesthood is what is confusing. Priest today are not comparable to the Levitical priesthood, but are priest of the order of Melchisedec. Hebrews makes for fun reading.

 

[edwest2]

Thanks Ed for you great posts.

You’re welcome,

Ed

 

[curlycool89]

I hate to break the news to you but this is the symbolism at every Mass. The priest, acts in persona Christi, as the High Priest of old. That’s why all the vestments and incense. He’s the High Priest making a sacrifice on our behalf. The victim is Christ.

And at most, it is all a symbol (the symbology of the high priest and holy of holies. I’m not saying that Mass is just a symbol).

No priest of the Catholic Church is a High Priest because we have only 1 High Priest, who is Jesus. Nor does the priest enter into an actual Holy of Holies. Not even a copy, as was the one in the Temple (cf. Hebrews), because there is no need for a Holy of Holies on earth anymore.

The High Priest entered the Holy of Holies with the blood of an unbleamished lamb, but Christ entered the true Holy of Holies with His own blood. There’s no need for one anymore, because Christ’s sacrifice was sufficient for all the world’s sins, once for all*.

*The language of “once for all” is again from Hebrews. cf Heb 10:10