Cleavage

[Lost_Sheep]

What they say, in effect, is if what you do causes another to fall, don’t do it.

You are not *causing *them to fall. You might be presenting the opportunity for them to fall, but you are not causing it. If they fall, it is by their choosing.

As I mentioned in another post, remember the news story a few months ago when those topless women danced around that bishop while he tried to pray? Did they cause him to sin?

He could, I suppose, have looked at them but instead he chose not to. Instead, he turned away and prayed. I seriously doubt any sin was held against him.

Did the women commit a sin by flaunting themselves and trying to tempt him? Probably. But he chose not to succumb to their temptation.

You can’t sin unless you want to.

 

[Sarcelle]

Am I certain? Absolutely.

And in the situation you describe the women, if modestly dressed, share no fault in the sins of those young men. More than likely it wasn’t a turn as much as it was fun to make people uncomfortable. I was a stupid kid at one point in my life too.

I’m not interested in Billy Joel especially as it has no relevance.

You mentioned in your post that if women dressed in a righteous manner than men will not notice. Well here I am giving you an example of women dressing righteously and men behaving in a boorish manner anyway.

As for the Billy Joel song, some men see modesty as a turn on. Thrill of the chase and all that.

 

[PaulinVA]

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Is this what parents are teaching children. To react/treat someone – based on what that person wears. The nicely dressed person – treated a certain way – as opposed to someone whose mode of dress is not to someones standards. Children learn from us. If parents and/or other adults convey the message – look at that woman – she’s asking for it – that is what the children believe and carry through.

You can indeed infer from my post that I believe that people are responsible for the way they dress. I never said that a woman is “asking for it” if she dresses a certain way - although she is responsible for dressing in the way she dresses.

I don’t see why people defend the right for women to dress any way they wish. We tell people to dress appropriately all the time. If a baseball player shows up at a game on a summer day dressed in a a heavy wool sweater and passes out from heat stroke, what would everyone say? He was asking for it. If I fry bacon without pants on and get burned, what would people say? If I go out to the beach in just shorts and spend three hours there, what would people say about my sun burn? If I show up at a job interview in shorts and don’t 'get the job, what would people say?

 

[Sarcelle]

You can indeed infer from my post that I believe that people are responsible for the way they dress. I never said that a woman is “asking for it” if she dresses a certain way - although she is responsible for dressing in the way she dresses.

I don’t see why people defend the right for women to dress any way they wish. We tell people to dress appropriately all the time. If a baseball player shows up at a game on a summer day dressed in a a heavy wool sweater and passes out from heat stroke, what would everyone say? He was asking for it. If I fry bacon without pants on and get burned, what would people say? If I go out to the beach in just shorts and spend three hours there, what would people say about my sun burn? If I show up at a job interview in shorts and don’t 'get the job, what would people say?

I am not saying that women can dress in any way they wish.

Women have the responsibility to dress modestly, while men have the responsibility to treat women as humans. As mentioned in a previous post, the failure of one to exercise that responsibility does not excuse the other’s sin.

Now modesty may vary from one culture to another. What may be modest in the West may not be modest in Malaysia.

Do you agree or disagree?

 

[Miss_Felicity]

The problem with making a sweeping generalization and presenting it as a universal truth is that it is usually wrong.

A woman who dresses for work in a modest, professional manner expects to be treated as a competent professional.

A woman who shows up for a pickup basketball game with the guys and is wearing basketball shoes, shorts and the championship shirt from her latest basketball team expects to be treated as someone who can play ball.

A woman who goes out to dinner with a someone who asked her on a date wears clothing that reflects what she wants to convey to the man about herself.

A woman who meets her husband at the door after work wearing a nightgown is expecting a certain outcome from the evening.

We all dress purposefully most of the time. Sometimes for us, sometimes for others.

The problem with taking one sentence out of my paragraph that admonishes the thought that women are “asking” for sexual harassment, assault and ill treatment based on clothing choice and repurposing that sentence to make a point about non verbal communication through clothing choice is comparing apples to sea horses.

I was addressing the notion that if a woman dresses like a “harlot” she is asking to be treated as one. I was addressing the belief that is often attached to that line of thinking that blames women for their own rapes, and assults because of what she was wearing. I was making also making the point that rapes, and assaults and many other types of ill treatment are not about sex or promiscuity, they are about power and control. Additionally making women responsible for what article of clothing will drive a man to lust is irresponsible, and quite literally impossible. Feet get some men going, are women supposed to no longer wear sandals in summer?

I hope I am illustrating my point well as to why this line of thinking is problematic.

 

[Walking_Home]

You can indeed infer from my post that I believe that people are responsible for the way they dress. I never said that a woman is “asking for it” if she dresses a certain way - although she is responsible for dressing in the way she dresses.

I don’t see why people defend the right for women to dress any way they wish. We tell people to dress appropriately all the time. If a baseball player shows up at a game on a summer day dressed in a a heavy wool sweater and passes out from heat stroke, what would everyone say? He was asking for it. If I fry bacon without pants on and get burned, what would people say? If I go out to the beach in just shorts and spend three hours there, what would people say about my sun burn? If I show up at a job interview in shorts and don’t 'get the job, what would people say?

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What I am speaking about is in general --not how one is to dress for business etc–play football etc. In general – the person we see – in a store – pass by in a sidewalk – at the sports bar --etc. What message are parents giving to their children – as to how to respond – to those they see in everyday circumstances. If a child is made fun of/treated differently/bullied-- because of how the child looks/ the clothes etc. – what would people say?

 

[PaulinVA]

I was addressing the notion that if a woman dresses like a “harlot” she is asking to be treated as one.

If a woman truly, purposely dresses like a prostitute, just how* does* she expect to be treated?

I was addressing the belief that is often attached to that line of thinking that blames women for their own rapes, and assaults because of what she was wearing. I was making also making the point that rapes, and assaults and many other types of ill treatment are not about sex or promiscuity, they are about power and control. Additionally making women responsible for what article of clothing will drive a man to lust is irresponsible, and quite literally impossible. Feet get some men going, are women supposed to no longer wear sandals in summer?

Rape is always wrong. True.

Sarcelle:

I am not saying that women can dress in any way they wish.

Women have the responsibility to dress modestly, while men have the responsibility to treat women as humans. As mentioned in a previous post, the failure of one to exercise that responsibility does not excuse the other’s sin.

Now modesty may vary from one culture to another. What may be modest in the West may not be modest in Malaysia.

Do you agree or disagree?

I agree. There can be failure on both sides of the issue, as well.

 

[Walking_Home]

If a woman truly, purposely dresses like a prostitute, just how* does* she expect to be treated?

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The question is – What does God expect from us. Do we treat her in a Christian manner – or not.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

The problem with making a sweeping generalization and presenting it as a universal truth is that it is usually wrong.

A woman who dresses for work in a modest, professional manner expects to be treated as a competent professional.

A woman who shows up for a pickup basketball game with the guys and is wearing basketball shoes, shorts and the championship shirt from her latest basketball team expects to be treated as someone who can play ball.

A woman who goes out to dinner with a someone who asked her on a date wears clothing that reflects what she wants to convey to the man about herself.

A woman who meets her husband at the door after work wearing a nightgown is expecting a certain outcome from the evening.

We all dress purposefully most of the time. Sometimes for us, sometimes for others.

That’s true. And I probably wouldn’t hire a woman who showed up to an interview dressed provocatively. However, I don’t think that she’s asking to be raped, and I certainly don’t think that her clothes are a green light to ignore that she is a person worthy of dignity.

By the way, rape and clothing are not connected. (Not responding to you on this, I’m just stating it for the general audience.)

 

[PaulinVA]

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The question is – What does God expect from us. Do we treat her in a Christian manner – or not.

That was not what you posed, or the question I asked.

You said :

I was addressing the notion that if a woman dresses like a “harlot” she is asking to be treated as one. I was addressing the belief that is often attached to that line of thinking that blames women for their own rapes, and assaults because of what she was wearing.

So, if a woman dresses like a harlot but she is not asking to be treated as one, what is she asking to be treated like? If she dresses as a professional woman in a suit, is she also not expecting to be treated as a professional woman?

 

[markomalley]

har·lot
ˈhärlət/
noun archaic

1. a prostitute or promiscuous woman.
   synonyms: prostitute, whore, fille de joie, call girl, courtesan; More

Based on the highlighted and red and the definition of harlot, it can be inferred we are talking about rape because you said a man acting the way he has been asked to through her dress, which implies an express consent wasn’t exchanged. Sex without express consent is rape.

So in your book, sex workers are allowed to be raped?

(See what happens when you take a leap?)

Since you had to perform all of those gymnastics to infer (not actually substantiate, mind you), that I say a woman should be raped…(by the way, I am actually impressed with the display of contortionism)

…let me re-iterate what I said

If a woman dresses (and acts) in such a fashion as to communicate the nonverbal message that she wishes to be treated as a sex object, she should not be surprised when men treat her in such a fashion. (We can apply all the other permutations, but the message is the same)

93% of all communication is nonverbal. A person’s dress, grooming, posture, and gestures are part of the non-verbal message that each of us convey. That is a fact that you cannot escape through political correctness. Non-verbal messages are highly localized in nature. For example, a woman walking around topless in a village in Papua New Guinea sends a radically different non-verbal message than a woman doing the same thing as a part of a Femen protest at the Vatican.

If you wish to be an effective non-verbal communicator, you will be sensitive to the cultural norms of the receivers of that message. The message is the responsibility of the sender, in any kind of communication model out there. As somebody else has commented, if you wish to be treated as a professional, you will dress as a professional.

Hopefully the receiver will be able to apply sufficient filtering to remove noise in the circuit and ignore the non-sequitur non-verbals in order to receive the message that the sender is transmitting. But it is not certain that such filtering will properly occur to convey the message the sender intends. Therefore, effective transmission of the message remains the responsibility of the sender.

Bottom line: when you dress like a sex object, don’t be surprised when you’re treated as one. If you want to be treated with respect, dress accordingly.

And I do not apologize for that statement.

 

[RJB]

My take on this is that dressing inappropriately for Mass can cause others to be distracted from the real reason they are there - to worship and to praise our Lord.

 

[The_Bucket]

Bottom line: when you dress like a sex object, don’t be surprised when you’re treated as one. If you want to be treated with respect, dress accordingly.

And I do not apologize for that statement.

And you shouldn’t. How you dress does indeed send a message. How can it not? If I’m dressed to the nines in a suit, it probably means I’m headed to an important meeting, interviewing for a job or attending Easter/Christmas Mass. It sends the message that I’m doing something special and want to look good. If I’m wearing a t-shirt and jeans, it means it’s a normal day, whatever. If I’m wearing some swim trunks, it probably means I’m hitting the beach.

I think it behooves us to all step back and breathe when it comes to “rape culture” and “blaming the victim” stuff. There are a lot of cases where this happens. Even more often is where no one actually blames the victim but the victim still blames herself. That’s horrible. The only person responsible for rape or sexual harassment or even a lewd comment is the actor. No one should argue otherwise, ever.

Sexual harassment/abuse/crime issues and modesty need to stop being conflated in any way. We are all called to be chaste and modest. We all need to understand what message we are sending when we dress or act certain ways. And we all need to understand that even when someone is sending a negative message with his/her dress or actions, we are all called to treat that person like the son or daughter of God that he or she is.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

How hard is it to just treat people with respect and dignity, regardless of what they’re wearing? That’s what I was raised to do anyway.

Besides, clothing is so subjective. We started out talking about cleavage, now we’re talking about dressing like a harlot. I think those are worlds apart, but many on this thread may think that cleavage does equal “dressing like a prostitute”. If you put clothing aside and just treat people like humans, you won’t have a problem. This doesn’t just apply to women, I try to treat men the same regardless of whether they’re in suits or rags. Elevating yourself or others above women because of their clothing is wrong, and reflects worse on you than it does on the woman in a low-cut shirt.

 

[The_Bucket]

How hard is it to just treat people with respect and dignity, regardless of what they’re wearing? That’s what I was raised to do anyway.

Absolutely right. That’s a chief reason why I think many of the discussions here should be separated. People must treat others with respect and dignity no matter what they wear. People should also dress modestly. These are not two sides of a spiritual battle.

 

[Walking_Home]

Walking_Home:

The question is – What does God expect from us. Do we treat her in a Christian manner – or not.

That was not what you posed, or the question I asked.

You said :

Quote:
I was addressing the notion that if a woman dresses like a “harlot” she is asking to be treated as one. I was addressing the belief that is often attached to that line of thinking that blames women for their own rapes, and assaults because of what she was wearing.

So, if a woman dresses like a harlot but she is not asking to be treated as one, what is she asking to be treated like? If she dresses as a professional woman in a suit, is she also not expecting to be treated as a professional woman?

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Your second quote above – belongs to someone else.

The question I posed to you was in response to your post below. When we encounter someone dressed in such a way – What does God expect from us? Do we treat her in a Christian manner – or not.

PaulinVA:

If a woman truly, purposely dresses like a prostitute, just how does she expect to be treated?

 

[Walking_Home]

How hard is it to just treat people with respect and dignity, regardless of what they’re wearing? That’s what I was raised to do anyway.

Besides, clothing is so subjective. We started out talking about cleavage, now we’re talking about dressing like a harlot. I think those are worlds apart, but many on this thread may think that cleavage does equal “dressing like a prostitute”. If you put clothing aside and just treat people like humans, you won’t have a problem. This doesn’t just apply to women, I try to treat men the same regardless of whether they’re in suits or rags. Elevating yourself or others above women because of their clothing is wrong, and reflects worse on you than it does on the woman in a low-cut shirt.

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Yes.

 

[markomalley]

How hard is it to just treat people with respect and dignity, regardless of what they’re wearing? That’s what I was raised to do anyway.

Besides, clothing is so subjective. We started out talking about cleavage, now we’re talking about dressing like a harlot. I think those are worlds apart, but many on this thread may think that cleavage does equal “dressing like a prostitute”. If you put clothing aside and just treat people like humans, you won’t have a problem. This doesn’t just apply to women, I try to treat men the same regardless of whether they’re in suits or rags. Elevating yourself or others above women because of their clothing is wrong, and reflects worse on you than it does on the woman in a low-cut shirt.

Look, the non-verbal that you are sending if you are wearing a low cut shirt is, “look at the girls.”

If you’re wearing a half-shirt, you are wanting people to admire your abs.

If you wear a sweater and a tight pair of yoga pants with boots, the non-verbal you are sending is that you want attention paid to other parts of your anatomy.

And if you combine the three…(low cut, midriff exposed, skin-tight, form-fitting pants)…well, guess what?

I full well understand that you may not intend to send that message, but that is the non-verbal you are sending.

I find it the height of irony when a woman dresses that way and then complains that guys are staring at her.

Having said that, I hope that most men who go to Mass will have at least enough mastery of the concept of “discipline of the eyes” to be able to filter out that non-verbal. But unfortunately, that is the non-verbal that is being sent.

Oh, and to reiterate (for those who like reading something into my words that I’m not writing): I don’t care if a woman walks down a city street at night stark naked, that’s no excuse for any kind of sexual assault.

 

[PaulinVA]

Mark, I think sometimes women (and men) just wear things to fit in.

 

[Walking_Home]

Look, the non-verbal that you are sending if you are wearing a low cut shirt is, “look at the girls.”

If you’re wearing a half-shirt, you are wanting people to admire your abs.

If you wear a sweater and a tight pair of yoga pants with boots, the non-verbal you are sending is that you want attention paid to other parts of your anatomy.

And if you combine the three…(low cut, midriff exposed, skin-tight, form-fitting pants)…well, guess what?

I full well understand that you may not intend to send that message, but that is the non-verbal you are sending.

I find it the height of irony when a woman dresses that way and then complains that guys are staring at her.

Having said that, I hope that most men who go to Mass will have at least enough mastery of the concept of “discipline of the eyes” to be able to filter out that non-verbal. But unfortunately, that is the non-verbal that is being sent.

Oh, and to reiterate (for those who like reading something into my words that I’m not writing): I don’t care if a woman walks down a city street at night stark naked, that’s no excuse for any kind of sexual assault.

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We can all “come up” reasons – not treat another in a Christian manner. It the clothes --the signals --etc. etc. But it is by our own failure as Christians – that we end up treating people differently.