Cleaving gender from sex (not trans issue)

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Note: it may sound similar but this has nothing to do with the current trans issues, and some trans people consider it transphobic. I am only wondering what the Church teaches on this, so I can go forward and do whatever. God bless, please pray to St. Joseph

Definition I am using when I use the word “sex”: describing reproductive roles, male and female, sperm and eggs, found across physical nature in various animals and plants, including humans. Not found in anything spiritual like souls, angels, God and other beings similar. Strictly biological and in the matter of our bodies, nothing more

Definition I use when I say gender: the socially constructed roles and stereotypes places on humans in one of the two sexes, examples being “males are aggresive, logical, like blue, like trucks, and metal music” or “females are emotional, like pink, like self-adornment and Beyonce”. In addition to this gender is usually considered masculine or feminine (I am speaking from 21st century USA culture here, what has been or is being done with third genders elsewhere is not the interest of this post)

Last definition: a “woman” is a female human who has feminine gender expectations imposed on them, a “man” is a male human who has masculine gender expectations imposed on them. They may or may not agree with the social imposition and describe themselves with it, doesn’t matter.

The QUESTION: May a Catholic cleanly split gender and sex without sin? That is to say, under NO circumstances assume that a male or female human being fits into or should fit into the social expectations of their sex called gender. PRACTICALLY in a world where this was done a male human would not be seen as doing some social transgression and being less of a male for wearing a dress, doing everyday makeup, etc, because such things would not be considered inherently expected of only females. People would express themselves in anyway fit, and expecting males and females to act of present in a certain way would be abolished (knowledge of a person’s sex would only tell you things like “they can probably get pregnant” and so on, not things like “they should act in xyz ways”)

More radically, can a Catholic think gender stereotypes/expectations should not exjst, and actively seek their destruction. NOTE: this is not abolishing “sex” differences, as they cannot be, they are as real as gravity, but only the IDEA that a person of a certain sex should fit a stereotype, or else they are doing something wrong

None of this has to do with things like the priesthood btw, since it forbids females, a sex not a gender, from joining it.

If this is not acceptable, does it mean that the Church holds to biological essentialism? That is: because a person is female it is only natural for them to like xyz, same for males. I do not think the Church holds to this because 1) it is stupid and absurd to hold stereotypes as if they are eternal maxims of the natural law 2) said stereotypes change, and the Church is eternal and is concerned in its doctrines with eternal things, not the petty details of what colors male infants are supposed to be wrapped in.

Of course I could be wrong, therefore I ask.Thank you
 
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Thank you, I am reading it although I excluded it from my OP because as far as I know the Church holds that human individuals are reducible to a sex binary, and that there is no true third sex in our species, never has or will be, and that such individuals have defects that obscure their true sex. Does knowing about them change the premise of separating binary sex from gender in Catholic moral theology, and abolishing the latter? But this article is nice to know, especially the history of these peoples treatment, and issues of justice they face, thank you and God bless. May St. Joseph protect them
 
Thank you, I am reading it although I excluded it from my OP because as far as I know the Church holds that human individuals are reducible to a sex binary, and that there is no true third sex in our species, never has or will be, and that such individuals have defects that obscure their true sex. Does knowing about them change the premise of separating binary sex from gender in Catholic moral theology, and abolishing the latter? But this article is nice to know, especially the history of these peoples treatment, and issues of justice they face, thank you and God bless. May St. Joseph protect them
There are many karyotypes of chromosomes including mosaicism, therefore there are those with ovotestes, for example – one in 83,000 births.
 
Well there was a time when one could not admit to being a homosexual.

Now the church stance has changed on that. They recognize the science, BUT THEY(homosexual) CAN’T ACT UPON IT.

Use to be Suicide guaranteed one a one way trip to HELL. But that has changed as well. They recognize science.

One day the church will change it’s stance on this as well. Science keeps the Church teachings in a precarious state of flux. Mind you it is nothing ex-cathedra.

And the poor being that is born with both external sex organs. What does a Catholic born like that to do? I imagine the infant may have been put to death as being an abomination unto God in the old days.
 
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I am aware sex doesn’t reduce to chromosomes, although with talking of such small percentages, it seems right to only think of it as uncommon defects due to the fallen nature and original sin (which harmed is soul and body). Either way, but it is bad enough for them. Still, even if there were a genuine third sex that could reproduce, this does not harm separating gender stereotypes from them also, which is what I am wondering
And the poor being that is born with both external sex organs. What does a Catholic born like that to do? I imagine the infant may have been put to death as being an abomination unto God in the old days.
I assume go with whichever sex the best knowledge can tell them they are, only for the purposes of godparents and priesthood and being a nun or monk, and other sex based things in the world. Other than those things where it matters, live their life I guess. Either way, it does not seem to change the premise, unless I am missing something severe here, as if there were a third sex, I would will them to be free from stereotypes also
 
I wasn’t able to follow everything, but gender stereotypes don’t have to be followed when it comes to personality and behaviors.
 
I am aware sex doesn’t reduce to chromosomes, although with talking of such small percentages, it seems right to only think of it as uncommon defects due to the fallen nature and original sin (which harmed is soul and body). Either way, but it is bad enough for them. Still, even if there were a genuine third sex that could reproduce, this does not harm separating gender stereotypes from them also, which is what I am wondering
My post was to address the question of binary vs non-binary. Factually there are individuals born without any male or female organs, or with both. Jesus in Matthew 19 acknowledges existence of male, female, and eunuch.
12 For there are eunuchs, who were born so from their mothers womb: and there are eunuchs, who were made so by men: and there are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. He that can take, let him take it.
For Catholic marriage, the spouses must be sexually functional but not necessarily fertile, so some persons are excluded from marriage.
 
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I see now, thank you. I’ll look more into it. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Church ignores this issue forever until Christ returns, seems a bit obscure and complex
 
The QUESTION: May a Catholic cleanly split gender and sex without sin?
You’re asking whether or not the Catholic Church allows splitting gender expectations from a person’s sex. The short answer is that it depends on whether the expectations are artificial or if they actually are implied by a person’s sex. For instance, you say:
More radically, can a Catholic think gender stereotypes/expectations should not exjst, and actively seek their destruction. NOTE: this is not abolishing “sex” differences, as they cannot be, they are as real as gravity, but only the IDEA that a person of a certain sex should fit a stereotype, or else they are doing something wrong
What you seem to be saying is that there should be no implied expectations, that sex ought to be essentially irrelevant. Well, in some regards, nothing is relevant except baptism:
For through faith you are all children of God in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendant, heirs according to the promise.
Gal 3:26-29

Yet is not contested that St. Paul also wrote the letters to the Corinthians, which of course show that he did expect for there to be expectations based on a person’s sex in the churches to whom he wrote.

I think the Church would say it is very fair to question whether expectations placed on a person are from God or only from human beings. The ones that are merely stereotypes or expectations that people get from what they think is average among persons of one sex or the other ought to be don’t have any power of law. Having said that, we ought to remember to be charitable with people who are still getting to know us. If they are open to allowing others to be themselves, which goes the whole length of the Bell curve and doesn’t just cover “the average” that others come to expect, give them room to learn about you. Encourage others to do the same.
 
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I see now, thank you. I’ll look more into it. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Church ignores this issue forever until Christ returns, seems a bit obscure and complex
This is a core question in philosophy. Plato proposed immortal Ideas that are manifested in earthly realities, while Aristotle tended toward separate realities that can be grouped together by qualities. (Those are gross oversimplifications…)

Aristotle is closer to a modern scientific understanding like that beneath your sex and gender distinction. But forms of both understandings exist in the Church. Most people have a mixture of the two. But few of us have figured out all the ramifications.

I hope we are tending toward the sex gender distinction. Evolution is based on an infinite numbers of animals, people, things, in (slowly) changing groupings. Society is based on grouping like things together. Respecting the unique individuality of every person should be our goal.
 
That is to say, under NO circumstances assume that a male or female human being fits into or should fit into the social expectations of their sex called gender. PRACTICALLY in a world where this was done a male human would not be seen as doing some social transgression and being less of a male for wearing a dress, doing everyday makeup, etc, because such things would not be considered inherently expected of only females.
I’ve seen men at Catholic Mass in a dress, so I’d say that at least some parishes don’t have a problem with it.

I probably would not encourage my male friends who wear dresses, kilts or makeup to show up at the FSSP Traditional Latin Mass in that outfit, but there are plenty of Ordinary Form parishes where they would be welcome, FWIW.
 
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Here’s the thing.

Only and man and a woman together can reproduce.
A man makes sperm.
A woman makes eggs.

There is no third option to make reproduction happen, therefore, no third sex.

There are people born with birth defects. Maybe in the heart, maybe in the kidney, maybe in the reproductive organs.

Those born with reproductive anomalies are not a third sex. They can’t reproduce.

People may enjoy things not typical for their sex. They may have thoughts and feelings not typical for their sex (I’m certainly not a girly girl and never have been).

The only thing it means is they like something out of the norm.

The Church doesn’t rule on this.

“Gender” as in “gender expression” is a fairly new idea. And that’s all it is. An idea. A philosophy . There are many ideas out there, and this is one of them.

The problem is when this idea gains the force of law, when people can lose their jobs because they have a “different” idea than those in power, and when they entice vulnerable kids to take dangerous medications and surgery.
 
Use to be Suicide guaranteed one a one way trip to HELL. But that has changed as well. They recognize science.
The Church still teaches that suicide is gravely sinful. It can still in fact be a mortal sin. The difference is that it recognizes that the mental state of someone who commits suicide can lessen the culpability of the person committing it.
 
Well there was a time when one could not admit to being a homosexual.

Now the church stance has changed on that. They recognize the science, BUT THEY(homosexual) CAN’T ACT UPON IT.

Use to be Suicide guaranteed one a one way trip to HELL. But that has changed as well. They recognize science.

One day the church will change it’s stance on this as well. Science keeps the Church teachings in a precarious state of flux. Mind you it is nothing ex-cathedra.

And the poor being that is born with both external sex organs. What does a Catholic born like that to do? I imagine the infant may have been put to death as being an abomination unto God in the old days.
You imagine that the Catholic Church ever practiced infanticide on people born with birth defects? Why would you say such a thing?

As for the Church stance changing, the Church has clarified that “We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. the Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.” (CCC 2283). The Church has not changed her fundamental teaching: Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God. (CCC 2281)
In other words, the Church still teaches that suicide is a mortal sin, even though she clarifies that culpability may be diminished by grave psychological disturbances and so on.

We should never teach anyone that suicide does not have the gravity of a mortal sin. Not ever.
 
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Have you looked at the transgender “scientific” studies?

They’re mostly sociological treatises. And philosophical musings.

The much-ballyhooed transgender brain study doesn’t say whether the (extremely minor) variations are a cause of gender dysphoria or a result of reinforcing certain thoughts and behavior patterns.

And anybody who does study this and has findings the activists don’t like will be punished and their findings buried.
 
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Could someone help me out? Isn’t there a discussion somewhere in the Bible about effeminate men and masculine acting women. I seem to recall hearing about it and don’t even know the right search terms to use! Thanks in advance…
 
I see now, thank you. I’ll look more into it. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Church ignores this issue forever until Christ returns, seems a bit obscure and complex
St. Augustine, The City of God (Book XVI), Chapter 8:
“As for the Androgyni, or Hermaphrodites, as they are called, though they are rare, yet from time to time there appears persons of sex so doubtful, that it remains uncertain from which sex they take their name; though it is customary to give them a masculine name, as the more worthy. For no one ever called them Hermaphroditesses.”
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/120116.htm

Note that there is a related thread: Genetic Mosaicism vs Church Teaching
 
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