Clericalization of the Laity/Q. for JReducation

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I am most interested in JReducation’s response to this, but everyone is welcome to comment and help me out as well! 😃

JR,

Your posts are unfailingly well thought-out, educated, and clear. I have been particularly interested in the posts where you outline how you believe the laity are being clericaliszed; that is, how the laity has let themselves be too free when rebuking clergy, or publicly criticizing them.

In previous posts you have asserted that if one has a problem with a Priest, one approach that priest in all humility, and then, only if needed, approach the Bishop. You have insisted that at no time is it correct for the laity to openly criticize clergy or to rebuke them, privately or publicly.

I am inclined to agree with your views. However, since I’m still a relatively new Catholic I have been doing my best to orient myself with the Church’s teachings and really don’t know my “way around” all that well yet. So my question for you, is what is the origin of the view of Church authority and the position of the laity you have previously outlined? It would seem to me that it is based on the Scriptural injunction on how to handle conflicts (in 1st Peter, is it?) and also the command to “rebuke not an elder.” Are there extra-Scriptural Church documents which support your view? Or is this view of things more something one learns when working in the Church?

Thanks in advance,

CC
 
I am most interested in JReducation’s response to this, but everyone is welcome to comment and help me out as well! 😃

JR,

Your posts are unfailingly well thought-out, educated, and clear. I have been particularly interested in the posts where you outline how you believe the laity are being clericaliszed; that is, how the laity has let themselves be too free when rebuking clergy, or publicly criticizing them.

In previous posts you have asserted that if one has a problem with a Priest, one approach that priest in all humility, and then, only if needed, approach the Bishop. You have insisted that at no time is it correct for the laity to openly criticize clergy or to rebuke them, privately or publicly.

I am inclined to agree with your views. However, since I’m still a relatively new Catholic I have been doing my best to orient myself with the Church’s teachings and really don’t know my “way around” all that well yet. So my question for you, is what is the origin of the view of Church authority and the position of the laity you have previously outlined? It would seem to me that it is based on the Scriptural injunction on how to handle conflicts (in 1st Peter, is it?) and also the command to “rebuke not an elder.” Are there extra-Scriptural Church documents which support your view? Or is this view of things more something one learns when working in the Church?

Thanks in advance,

CC
One certainly has to look at scripture passages such as the one that you quoted fromr St. Peter to see that from the early Church there was a tradition of respect toward the Apostles, presbyters and deacons. These would have been the elders. Though we have replaced this word with terms such as hierarchy, the concept of respect for those who lead the faithful remains the same.

I would also encourage you to read the Acts of the Apostles. At the first council of the Church, the Council of Jerusalem, the case of the Gentiles is taken up. What is clear in this narrative that Luke so beautifully paints for us is that it was a question that deeply affected all the believers, Jewish Christians as well as Gentile Christians. Nonetheless. we see that the dialogue and the debate, if one may choose to call it so, takes place between those who are in positions of authority. The names most mentioned are Peter, James and Paul. You do no see any intervention of the laity in this polemic, even though it deeply affected them. They do not take it upon themselves challenge Peter. It is Paul who does this in the name of the Gentile laity.

What we see is that the Pastors of the early Church had already established a protocol with dealing with issues that concerned the clergy and the laity. It is very clear from the first century that the laity is not part of the decision making body, nor is it part of the leadership or authoritative body of the Church. Issues that require authoritative decisions are discussed and decided by those in authority and the laity accepts them in faith and with great love and trust that the Holy Spirit will work through the Pastors.

Another interesting source are the saints themselves. If you look at a saint like Francis of Assisi. He speaks of the love that we should have for priests. He tells his Brothers that even if a priest were the greatest sinner in the world, he would still kneel before him, rather than an angel, because only through the priest does he see any visible sign of Jesus Christ in this world, because the priest makes the Eucharist possible.

If you look at St. John Baptiste de La Salle, he started the first religious community of men without priests. These were later known as the De La Salle Christian Brothers. Their mission is to educate. He never allowed his religious to be ordained, because he believed that Christian education was a ministry that was more appropriate for the laity than for priests. He made it clear in his constitutions to the Brothers that they must remain out of the domain of the clergy. They were to educate and practice the coroporal works of mercy and leave the running of the Church to the clergy. Like these there are many saints. Who protected the two states, the lay state and the clerical state by keeping them separate so that each would take care of the needs that were appropriate to them.

It was never the idea of the saints or the Church that the laity not conribute to the holiness of the Body, but that they laity take up those duties that were not appropriatae for the clergy or that the clergy could not cover.

If we look at history, the laity has always taken care of infusing the secular world with the spirit of the Gospel. That’s how so many religious communities were founded by lay people. Also such organizations as the Legion of Mary, St. Vincent de Paul Society, Knights of Columbus, just to name a few.

You also see it in the liturgy of the Church. There are specific roles for the ordained and for the laity. The idea of separate roles and different arenas of ministry has been part of Church history since the beginning.

When the Of was created, the role of lector, which had previously been a minor order on the path to the priesthood and acolyte (alter server) were reduced to lay ministries. This was the Church’s way of giving the laity an active role in the liturgy, without clericalizing them or making them clergymen or clergywomen.

Now we want back the Tridentine mass with the priest on one side and the laity on the other, no females in the sanctuary, no extraordinary ministers of holy communion, and altar rails to keep the laity and the priest separate. We don’t want the priest out in the congregation preaching or shaking hands. However, we want to have the authority to correct deacons, priests and bishops.

You can’t have it both ways. You are putting the lines of separation in the wrong places. It is not the role of a lay man or woman to correct a cleric. Every cleric has his supeior. You can express your concerns to a cleric and even disagree. But you cannot assume to have the authority to correct him or to teach him. That job belongs to his superior. The same applies to religious. They have superiors for that.

If you speak with a cleric or a religious about something that concerns you and you do not like what you hear in return or do not understand, you may present your concern to the next person up on the chain of command. You cannot assume the role of pastor, bishop or religious superior and decided that you’re going to show this person why you’re right and he is wrong.

This is not the job of the lay person. This is the job of a pastor, bishop or major religious superior.

Even among the clergy and religious, there is something called fraternal correction. But when that does not work, the concern is taken to the proper authority. The individual cleric or religioius does not try to tell the other what is wrong or what he believes he should know and doesn’t know.

Bishops and religious superiors do not allow their clerics or religious to do that to each other. This causes conflicts and people’s feelings are involved, as well as their reputatons. Also, in justice, people have authorities over them who have that right. They don’t need more figures of authority.

That’s like a child having too many parents.

When you take on the role of a pastor, bishop or religious superior, that is what is referred to a clericalization of the laity. That’s like the laity giving out communion at mass while the priest and deacon sit and watch. The laity has been clericalized. This is wrong.

The laity scolding clerics or religious is just as wrong.

Hope this helps. Feel free to ask more questions and I’ll try to answer.

JR 🙂
 
Excellent way of promoting error and becoming its accomplice — Do not bring out into the open. Deceive the people into not voicing the error they encounter—therefore letting error gain hold, prosper and grow.
 
While I would agree that clericalization of the laity is not a good thing, I don’t quite agree that the laity should be playing the role we played when I was a young man when every change we made in our lives was undertaken only after “asking Father.” As these forums attest, there are some members of the laity out there who have a better knowledge and sometimes even a deeper spirituality than some of our clerics.

What I see as clericalization is not the assumption of authority by certain of us in some instances, but more the drift of the laity away from their role as the leaven in society to becoming actively involved in the liturgical life of the Church as EMHC’s, readers, etc. and then figuring by their services on Sunday that they have done enough for the Church and live like any old secular during the week.

Further it is my opinion, and only my opinion, that part of the reason we have so few priests is that God wants us to fill those roles in society like teaching, evangelizing and spreading the Gospel that used to be left pretty much up to the clergy and religious. Some of you may recall “:Catholic Action” of the 50"s where the laity became involved in being allowed to share in the “work” of the clergy. It has become very apparent from the documents of Vatican II that much of that “work” is the responsibility of the laity.

I love and respect my pastor, our deacons, and the three retired priests who belong to my parish, but I think that by not being subservient to them we complement one another in our specific roles in the Church.

I think two of the main reasons why vocations to the priesthood are down is because many parents no longer see the priesthood as a desirable vocation for their sons and that with so many priests having bailed out after Vatican II combined with the abuse scandal our sons no longer find priests that have time to just hang out with them and to take on a hero role with them.
 
While I would agree that clericalization of the laity is not a good thing, I don’t quite agree that the laity should be playing the role we played when I was a young man when every change we made in our lives was undertaken only after “asking Father.” As these forums attest, there are some members of the laity out there who have a better knowledge and sometimes even a deeper spirituality than some of our clerics.

What I see as clericalization is not the assumption of authority by certain of us in some instances, but more the drift of the laity away from their role as the leaven in society to becoming actively involved in the liturgical life of the Church as EMHC’s, readers, etc. and then figuring by their services on Sunday that they have done enough for the Church and live like any old secular during the week.

Further it is my opinion, and only my opinion, that part of the reason we have so few priests is that God wants us to fill those roles in society like teaching, evangelizing and spreading the Gospel that used to be left pretty much up to the clergy and religious. Some of you may recall “:Catholic Action” of the 50"s where the laity became involved in being allowed to share in the “work” of the clergy. It has become very apparent from the documents of Vatican II that much of that “work” is the responsibility of the laity.

I love and respect my pastor, our deacons, and the three retired priests who belong to my parish, but I think that by not being subservient to them we complement one another in our specific roles in the Church.

I think two of the main reasons why vocations to the priesthood are down is because many parents no longer see the priesthood as a desirable vocation for their sons and that with so many priests having bailed out after Vatican II combined with the abuse scandal our sons no longer find priests that have time to just hang out with them and to take on a hero role with them.
I like your reponse, especially the idea that the laity must be a leaven in the secular world and is falling short in that respect.

At the same time, I am not promoting that the laity be subservient to priests or religious at all. I’m coming at this from another perspective. There are lay people, whom as you say, are very well read and educated. However, among the laity there are also some who treat clerics and religious as if they lay person was their superior whenever they have a concern. Rather than communicate their concern and take it up the chain of command, if they do not get a satisfactory or clear answer, they take the cleric or religious to task. Taking a cleric or religious to task is the role his superior, even a fellow-cleric or religious does not take the other to task. This is another form of clericalization of the laity.

There was a priest on CAF not long ago who posted about how a younger priest had given up on a parish and asked to be transferred, because the laity were always scolding him. He knew that he made mistakes. He was fresh out of seminary. That was not his problem. His problem was that the laity wanted to be his pastor. This is an example of the clericalization of the laity. Just because you know something, you cannot become the individual’s superior.

As to the decrease in vocations to the priesthood, I think there was a major change in society, both in North America and Europe that started in the late 50s that brought down the moral house all over the world. This really was not the fault of the Church. The Church took a hit, this is true.

Catholic Action in the secular sphere needs to be given CPR, in my opinion.

JR 🙂
 
Excellent way of promoting error and becoming its accomplice — Do not bring out into the open. Deceive the people into not voicing the error they encounter—therefore letting error gain hold, prosper and grow.
This is not about promoting error, it’s about the right way to deal with error. There is a big difference.

Just like in any other organism, the Church has a chain of command.

JR 🙂
 
Excellent way of promoting error and becoming its accomplice — Do not bring out into the open. Deceive the people into not voicing the error they encounter—therefore letting error gain hold, prosper and grow.
Did Jesus not teach us to approach a brother in error in private, and only later to bring witnesses to confront him? When the brother in question is one in authority over us, surely it is commendable to do so discretely, by quietly calling the matter to the attention of superiors, when necessary.

There is an exception: this is when the bishops are fully aware of a grave injustice, and yet do nothing. In this case, they ought to be informed that justice demands the injustice be dealt with promptly; that is, that the action which is their duty must not be neglected by the entire Church, even should the shepherds neglect it.

I speak, of course, of such things such as actions which perpetuate child abuse. If both discretion and justice can be served, this is the best course, but no one should ever be abandoned to injustice or the risk of predation for the sake of discretion, particularly not the vulnerable. Likewise, teachings believed to be heresies that are not dealt with must eventually be publicized, but only via the most charitable and respectful means available.
 
Did Jesus not teach us to approach a brother in error in private, and only later to bring witnesses to confront him? When the brother in question is one in authority over us, surely it is commendable to do so discretely, by quietly calling the matter to the attention of superiors, when necessary.

There is an exception: this is when the bishops are fully aware of a grave injustice, and yet do nothing. In this case, they ought to be informed that justice demands the injustice be dealt with promptly; that is, that the action which is their duty must not be neglected by the entire Church, even should the shepherds neglect it.

I speak, of course, of such things such as actions which perpetuate child abuse. If both discretion and justice can be served, this is the best course, but no one should ever be abandoned to injustice or the risk of predation for the sake of discretion, particularly not the vulnerable. Likewise, teachings believed to be heresies that are not dealt with must eventually be publicized, but only via the most charitable and respectful means available.
I agree with you. Also, we have to be very careful about making public something before we are fully clear on what is going on. You can damage a person’s reputation and credibility unnecessarily through a misunderstanding or even if it’s not a misunderstanding on your part, it may not be something that requires a public hearing. I’m thinking of something such as changing a line in a prayer or a reading from scripture. This is not enough cause to take action that can ruin the reputaton or the credibility of a cleric.

As St. Francis said, “Even in correction, mercy must always be obvious.” Therefore, there is not place for anger and hostility in correction.

You also mentioned when the bishops do not act, there is another level. There are different departments in the Vatican to which you take different concerns: Liturgy, religious life, bishops behaviour, etc.

JR 🙂
 
At the same time, I am not promoting that the laity be subservient to priests or religious at all. I’m coming at this from another perspective. There are lay people, whom as you say, are very well read and educated. However, among the laity there are also some who treat clerics and religious as if they lay person was their superior whenever they have a concern. Rather than communicate their concern and take it up the chain of command, if they do not get a satisfactory or clear answer, they take the cleric or religious to task. Taking a cleric or religious to task is the role his superior, even a fellow-cleric or religious does not take the other to task. This is another form of clericalization of the laity.
It’s good that you are expounding on this, because your original posts (in the other thread) made it seem as if lay persons should not bring up problems at all to their priests, when clearly they do have that right if abuses are occurring.

For example, I am getting ready to send a letter to my current priest next week about his habit of changing set prayers in the mass. He changes the language to be more inclusive, or adds prayers that include feminine pronouns. This is wrong and he should not be doing that.

I will write my letter clearly, cite appropriate church documents that show that this should not be done, and then offer to meet with him personally if he should so desire. I will not attempt to give him advice or scold him. I am simply going to present the problem so that he knows that I know that what he is doing is wrong.

If he fails to correct himself, then I’ll go “up the chain of command” to the bishop. If the bishop fails to respond then I’ll go higher. At no time will I “scold” the priest on what he is doing, write him nasty letters, or decide to give him “advice”.

I believe that what I will be doing is totally appropriate for the laity. I also know that it’s possible that absolutely no improvement may occur, and that I will just have to live with that.

I do understand why “clericalization” of the laity does occur, though. It’s absolutely ridiculous that so many faithful Catholics must suffer through abusive masses. We deserve better than this, and it’s possible that many are just completely fed up (or desperate). I don’t know too many Catholics who expect their priests to be perfect, but I sure know a lot of them who would be really happy if their priest just celebrated an orthodox mass. 😦
 
The clericalization of the laity that has really damaged the Church and everyone should be concerned about is the abuses in liturgy and parish life.

Extra-ordinary ministers of Communion and lectors have basically usurped the privilege of the ordained in the liturgy and the Mass. I have no doubt this has contributed to decline in faith and devotion.

Then there is all the laity who have taken over parishes. The lay pastoral cordinator who is now in charge of parishes is the real scandal. A priest should always be the pastor of a Church. These priestless parishes are tripling.

Then we have the pastoral councils. The Church is not a democracy it is a monarch with hierarchy. Priests do not need pastoral councils. They alone make the decisions. They could however accept the advise of individual laity in private.

The priesthood has had its own crisis over the decades. I continously amazed at how poorly formed priests have been in the seminary. Seminaries themselves were hot beds of dissent and novelty in the 60’s 70’s and even 80’s.
Most of these priests have not been properly trained in Scholasticism or the moral theology of St. Alphonsus.

The proof is that so many priests tolerate the abuses of lay ministers of Communion, bad music, altar girls, irreverence, etc.
 
It’s good that you are expounding on this, because your original posts (in the other thread) made it seem as if lay persons should not bring up problems at all to their priests, when clearly they do have that right if abuses are occurring.

For example, I am getting ready to send a letter to my current priest next week about his habit of changing set prayers in the mass. He changes the language to be more inclusive, or adds prayers that include feminine pronouns. This is wrong and he should not be doing that.

I will write my letter clearly, cite appropriate church documents that show that this should not be done, and then offer to meet with him personally if he should so desire. I will not attempt to give him advice or scold him. I am simply going to present the problem so that he knows that I know that what he is doing is wrong.

If he fails to correct himself, then I’ll go “up the chain of command” to the bishop. If the bishop fails to respond then I’ll go higher. At no time will I “scold” the priest on what he is doing, write him nasty letters, or decide to give him “advice”.

I believe that what I will be doing is totally appropriate for the laity. I also know that it’s possible that absolutely no improvement may occur, and that I will just have to live with that.

I do understand why “clericalization” of the laity does occur, though. It’s absolutely ridiculous that so many faithful Catholics must suffer through abusive masses. We deserve better than this, and it’s possible that many are just completely fed up (or desperate). I don’t know too many Catholics who expect their priests to be perfect, but I sure know a lot of them who would be really happy if their priest just celebrated an orthodox mass. 😦
I think the way that you’re handling this situation is not clericalization You’re not treating the priest as if he is your subordinate and your were his superior. You communicating a concern. I have only one question. Is he the pastor? If there is a pastor above him, that would be your next step.

Don’t get discouraged if no one responds or does anything about it either. We have to be comfortable that we did the best we could and that God looks at our efforts in judging us, not the effort of another.

Good luck and let us know what happens.

JR 🙂
 
The clericalization of the laity that has really damaged the Church and everyone should be concerned about is the abuses in liturgy and parish life.

Extra-ordinary ministers of Communion and lectors have basically usurped the privilege of the ordained in the liturgy and the Mass. I have no doubt this has contributed to decline in faith and devotion.

Then there is all the laity who have taken over parishes. The lay pastoral cordinator who is now in charge of parishes is the real scandal. A priest should always be the pastor of a Church. These priestless parishes are tripling.

Then we have the pastoral councils. The Church is not a democracy it is a monarch with hierarchy. Priests do not need pastoral councils. They alone make the decisions. They could however accept the advise of individual laity in private.

The priesthood has had its own crisis over the decades. I continously amazed at how poorly formed priests have been in the seminary. Seminaries themselves were hot beds of dissent and novelty in the 60’s 70’s and even 80’s.
Most of these priests have not been properly trained in Scholasticism or the moral theology of St. Alphonsus.

The proof is that so many priests tolerate the abuses of lay ministers of Communion, bad music, altar girls, irreverence, etc.

Bingo.
 
Wait a minute Rafael. Let’s break this down into pieces, because not everything that you have in here is against Church law. Some of it is actually encouraged.
The clericalization of the laity that has really damaged the Church and everyone should be concerned about is the abuses in liturgy and parish life.

Extra-ordinary ministers of Communion and lectors have basically usurped the privilege of the ordained in the liturgy and the Mass. I have no doubt this has contributed to decline in faith and devotion.
Extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion were created with a purpose in mind, for those situations when you do not have enough ordinary minsisters of communion, such as very large parishes or missions priest’s and deacons cannot get around to everyone.

If the priest and deacon sit while the extraordinary minister distributes communion, that is in violation of the intent and it is an abuse of this ministry. If the priest or deacon cannot get to the shut-ins, the use of an extraordinary minister is very appropriate and allowed. The Church does not want shut-ins or patients in hospitals to go without communion when it can be solved by an extraordinary minister.

As to the lector, what happened was that the Sacred Congregation on the Sacraments removed the orders of lector and acolyte from Holy Orders. They said that this was not really part of the Sacrament of Holy Orders, but that these were lay ministries. That’s how we got lay people as lectors. Young boys had been replacing acolytes for a very long time, because there were not enough acolytes to have one at every parish. So the altar boys were created to fill in that blank. In the end, we already had laymen serving as acolytes without receiving minor orders. The Sacred Congrgation of Sacraments, took this ministry out of the Sacrament of Holy Orders. An acolyte is a lay person. The rule still stands, that only lay males may become acolytes.
Then there is all the laity who have taken over parishes. The lay pastoral cordinator who is now in charge of parishes is the real scandal. A priest should always be the pastor of a Church. These priestless parishes are tripling.
The reason why the Church allows for lay pastoral administrators is because there is a shortage of priests in some regions of the world. Rather than close the parish, several parishes share a priest. But Church law does not allow a priest to be the pastor of more than one parish. What usually happens in these cases is that all of these parishes are juridically joined to a single parish who has a pastor and he is the pastor of them all. The parish administrator is simply doing the administrative work, not the sacramental work. They can’t do that part. Sometimes you have no pastor available even to consolidate several parishes.

Not all of this is a result of a decline in faith. A lot of this shortage results from the fact that more men are joining religious orders. Religious orders do not have to run parishes and many do not want to do this. They were not founded for this purpose. They are giving their religious who are priests opportunities to serve in ministries that are more appropriate for their order or congregation. As priests who are religious and are in parishes get older, they are not replacements, because the younger religious priest wants to do the minisry of his order, not of the diocese.

There is a poster in the Converts thread who mentioned that in her Franciscan parish the two religious are leaving. One is older and is being reassigned to the Motherhouse for rest and easier ministries. The younger one is going to do a ministry that is related to the vocation of Franciscans. The Franciscans are not sending in replacements, because the younger friars either are not priests, because they don’t want to be priests or those friars who are priests, do not want to do parish ministry, because St. Francis did not create a community of priests in the first place. This is happening in many places. The Bishop has to come up with secular priests, find another religious community or assign a parish administrator to keep things going during the week and send a priest on weekends and those times when the sacraments are needed. We have a shortage of secular priests. More priests belong to religious communities than to dioceses.
Then we have the pastoral councils. The Church is not a democracy it is a monarch with hierarchy. Priests do not need pastoral councils. They alone make the decisions. They could however accept the advise of individual laity in private.
Are you talking about the Parish Council? The parish council was an idea that came from the Vatican. They are a support system for the pastor. They are not to run the parish or have any authority over the parish. If they do, that’s clericalization. If they help the pastor organize activities, generate funds, create ministries for specific needs and find the volunteers, that’s ok. It’s up to the Bishop of the diocese if he wants to have parish councils. Most bishops leave it up to the pastor. Bu they may not make decisions that pertain to the pastor or the pastor’s superior. That would be clericalization of the laity.
The priesthood has had its own crisis over the decades. I continously amazed at how poorly formed priests have been in the seminary. Seminaries themselves were hot beds of dissent and novelty in the 60’s 70’s and even 80’s. Most of these priests have not been properly trained in Scholasticism or the moral theology of St. Alphonsus.
This is more your opinion.
The proof is that so many priests tolerate the abuses of lay ministers of Communion, bad music, altar girls, irreverence, etc.
Again, altar girls were approved by the Congregation on the Laity and by the Liturgical Commission of the United States. It is up to each bishop to decided if he wants to have them in his diocese. If the bishop approves it, then there is no abuse involved. If you want to pass judgement on the bishop for approving it, then you are taking on the role of his superior. If you simply disagree with the bishop, that’s OK. We can all disagree wth the bishop. We simply cannot look at him or anyone with condescension.

Let us not forget that pride comes before the fall.

JR 🙂
 
Personally, I feel that the clericalization of the laity is the far greater “crisis” in the Church than anything to do with Mass language, Communion recpetion, Boy/Girl altar servers, et al, ad nauseum.

These so-called “crisies” have been created by laity who have deemed themselves as more knowledgeable and wise than the clergy who lead our Church.

Back in the day, we wouldn’t DREAM of talking to a priest the way people do now.

The current generations are so full of themselves, that they respect no one…and sadly, not even themselves sometimes.

Just because I’ve read a few documents, or trolled around some internet forums, doesn’t give me the experience, wisdom, knowledge, OR authority, to rumble about, criticizing my Church and her leaders.
 
Personally, I feel that the clericalization of the laity is the far greater “crisis” in the Church than anything to do with Mass language, Communion recpetion, Boy/Girl altar servers, et al, ad nauseum.

These so-called “crisies” have been created by laity who have deemed themselves as more knowledgeable and wise than the clergy who lead our Church.

Back in the day, we wouldn’t DREAM of talking to a priest the way people do now.

The current generations are so full of themselves, that they respect no one…and sadly, not even themselves sometimes.

Just because I’ve read a few documents, or trolled around some internet forums, doesn’t give me the experience, wisdom, knowledge, OR authority, to rumble about, criticizing my Church and her leaders.
You just went up many notches on my respect meter. This is very true. We have created a society of people with a sense of entitlement.

While there are times and places when people must speak up about wrongs and injustices, there are also situations where people turn into CAVE people.

Complain
About
Virtually
Everything

And they believe that they can do with an air of authority.

This is dangerous.

JR 🙂
 
Personally, I feel that the clericalization of the laity is the far greater “crisis” in the Church than anything to do with Mass language, Communion recpetion, Boy/Girl altar servers, et al, ad nauseum.

These so-called “crisies” have been created by laity who have deemed themselves as more knowledgeable and wise than the clergy who lead our Church.

Back in the day, we wouldn’t DREAM of talking to a priest the way people do now.

The current generations are so full of themselves, that they respect no one…and sadly, not even themselves sometimes.

Just because I’ve read a few documents, or trolled around some internet forums, doesn’t give me the experience, wisdom, knowledge, OR authority, to rumble about, criticizing my Church and her leaders.

The laity not knowing the mind of the Church contributed to the mess we are in now. The lack of knowledge gave the innovators the upper hand to do as they wished. The knowledge the Church now provides for Her people — now makes it possible for us to no longer be deceived. I am sure that has become a thorn in the liberals/innovators side —so of course they would want to keep people in the dark and under their thumb.
 

The laity not knowing the mind of the Church contributed to the mess we are in now. The lack of knowledge gave the innovators the upper hand to do as they wished. The knowledge the Church now provides for Her people — now makes it possible for us to no longer be deceived. I am sure that has become a thorn in the liberals/innovators side —so of course they would want to keep people in the dark and under their thumb.
Perhaps this is an aside. But I wonder just how useful the political labels of liberal/conservative are to describe people within the Catholic Church? Fr. Richard Neuhaus recommends the terms noncontinuists and continuists–those who believe that Vatican II represents a break in the Sacred Tradition of the Church and run either left or right with it (for instance, Call to Action on the left and SSPX on the right) and those who believe that Vatican II was a continuation of that Sacred Tradition, who may of course lean either left or right.

However, when speaking of the Hierarchy in particular, such labels are as dangerous as they are inaccurate, because they are so very divisive. Perhaps I’m being redundant, but why would we want to drag the bickering world of politics into our view of our Catholic hierarchy? Besides the skillfully overlooked fact that the majority of the Hierarchy undoubtedly follow the dictates of their informed consciences without regard for the left/right paradigm, there is another point to be considered. Who are we to label one bishop conservative and another liberal? Permit me a step further. Who are we to label one bishop good and another bad? Isnt’ that judging another Man’s servant?

I like to think of the Church as a rather broad bridge, with plenty of room for barefoot Franciscans and high-profile convert seeking Opus Dei–or, if you prefer, room for Simon the Zealot and Matthew the Tax Collector–and nary a conflict in loving and supporting them both. You can fall off the right or you can fall off the left. But the guy on the right who has fallen off is no more on the bridge than the guy on the left who has fallen off.

An aside to the aside: I’m not even sure terms like “liberal” or “conservative” work for the political views of a great number of people in the Church. Suppose just for a moment that I agreed entirely with my greatly respected and rather outspoken Cardinal Metropolitan’s view of politics. I would be a cut-and-dry no-compromise abortion opponent, supporter of amnesty for illegal migrants, opponent of “homosexual rights,” supporter of safety-net programs for the poor, opponent of the death penalty and the Iraq War, and supporter of local governments over federal government. What do I call that? 🤷

Pardon my rambling asides.
 
An aside to the aside: I’m not even sure terms like “liberal” or “conservative” work for the political views of a great number of people in the Church. Suppose just for a moment that I agreed entirely with my greatly respected and rather outspoken Cardinal Metropolitan’s view of politics. I would be a cut-and-dry no-compromise abortion opponent, supporter of amnesty for illegal migrants, opponent of “homosexual rights,” supporter of safety-net programs for the poor, opponent of the death penalty and the Iraq War, and supporter of local governments over federal government. What do I call that? 🤷

Pardon my rambling asides.
I call that being Catholic! And this is a weird place to find yourself as a new convert, in this very non-black and white landscape where secular politics is concerned. I hear you and I’m right there with you! 😛
 
**I like to think of the Church as a rather broad bridge, with plenty of room for barefoot Franciscans and high-profile convert seeking Opus Dei–or, if you prefer, room for Simon the Zealot and Matthew the Tax Collector–and nary a conflict in loving and supporting them both. You can fall off the right or you can fall off the left. But the guy on the right who has fallen off is no more on the bridge than the guy on the left who has fallen off. **

.

Take a good look at the protestant denominations and how far some have fallen. It is that way of thinking that has led them in that direction.
 
I call that being Catholic! And this is a weird place to find yourself as a new convert, in this very non-black and white landscape where secular politics is concerned. I hear you and I’m right there with you! 😛
Thanks Jeanette! 😃
 
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