C
consumedconvert
Guest
He said, “Thou art Peter,” not “you guys are peters.”
- Status
W
Walking_Home
Guest
And you believe only the Pope knows right from wrong . Truth from heresy. That the laity cannot judge truth vs. falsehood. As I said before — when we are deceived into not being able to judge – Satan will have the world at his disposal.
C
consumedconvert
Guest
I fail to see how you got all that from “Thou art peter” and not “you guys are peters.”
Any Catholic may with absolute certitude know what’s right from wrong. They may know this with certitude because the Holy See teaches what is right and wrong, with absolute moral authority. Is moral theology necessary? Absolutely. Where does a good deal of moral theology come from? Who grants the official seal of the Church on books deemed free from error which teach moral theology? Peter and those in communion with him.
Heck, where do I get most of my theology?
The CCC. Promulgated by Peter on earth.
Catholics may know right from wrong, with certitude. They may even know what constitutes liturgical abuse, with careful research on the entirety the guidelines Rome and, in some cases, the USCCB or local ordinary have set. However, it is not a layman’s place to rebuke the Successors of the Apostles or their priests. That duty should fall on taller shoulders than mine, or yours.
I’ve recently found the peace of letting the Hierarchy take care of itself. If a Bishop errs, Rome will decide if interceding would be appropriate, when to intercede, and how to intercede. It is none of my business. Perhaps some day you will find the same peace, the peace of knowing that the Church is infallible and incorruptable, and living like one knows it.
If one sees a serious liturgical abuse, one should approach the priest and then, if repeated and serious enough, the ordinary, both with careful reverence and due humility. Other than that, I’ll take no part in chastising my “elders,” or superiors in the Hierarchy of things.
W
Walking_Home
Guest
It is our duty as Catholics to rebuke error – no matter where it originates. The most un-Catholic thing to do is not to rebuke it. I will say again — one of Satan’s greatest triumphs will be in deceiving people Not to to use judgment to rebuke error.
J
JReducation
Guest
I live in a very Catholic universe. It was a worldview which my brothers and sisters and I inherited from our Holy Father Francis and sustains more than one million of us today, 800 years later.
Our Holy Father taught us several important lessions about being Christian.
- We must embrace the cross. It is our calling in life to take Christ’s place on the cross. This means that we will be asked to offer our suffering and even seek out forms of physical penance to atone for the sins of the world, even those committed within the Church. Our place is not to judge the Church, but to give up our lives on the cross for the Church as Christ did.
- We must trust him, our Holy Father Francis. He taught us that if we trusted him, we would have eternal life, because the words that he taught us were not his words, but the words that Christ had given to him. What words were those, “Go and rebuild my Church”.
- To rebuild the Church one must begin by rebuilding one’s soul, that of one’s family, the sould in one’s workplace, one’s nation. Slowly the world is transformed to Christ. But it all begins with the transformation of self, not others.
- Our Holy Father always taught us to be obedient to priests, bishops and the Pope, even if we believed that they were wrong. That the only time that we had the right to disobey was in matters of sin, not discipline or order. If we were asked to stand on our heads, even though it was ridiculous, Christ would bless us not for doing the ridiculous, but for showing the same obedience that he showed toward his Father in Heaven. According to Francis, God too asked his son to do something that confounded men. He asked he who was sinless to die to atone for sins. We too will be asked to do things that may confound us for the greater good of humanity.
- Our Father taught us that everyone is our brother and sister and that in each person Christ lives and is waiting to be touched by us. To mistrust someone, because they are lepers, is to ignore Christ.
- As to sinners and heretics Francis taught us that thought their sins were great, when they looked into our eyes they should see nothing of contempt, repudiation, or rejection. Every sinner and every heretic could be brought back by a look of mercy. This is a discipline that requires many years of practice, prayer, and sacrifice to develop. It is not easy. It is probably the most difficult virtue to acquire, mercy toward those whom we believe are in error.
- St. Francis taught us to remain silent in all things and speak only if necessary, for none of us has anything of substance to add, unless it is given to us by the Holy Spirit. Therefore, before we speak, we must ask the Spirit what we should say. We should hold our tongues and release our wills to the will of the Holy Spirit.
- Our Holy Father also taught us that to be Catholic did not mean to be perfect or that we would live in a perfect Church. It meant that we were fools for the Lord. Some are greater fools than others. Some fools are foolish enough to fall into sin. When they do, they should be the object of our charity and fraternal correction. Our correction must always be fraternal. There is only one Lord and one Vicar. We are nothing but brothers to each other, not Lords or Vicar of the Divine Master. Therefore, we may never assume that attitude. For if we do, that is the way that we will be perceived and if we are perceived as such, then we are perceive in a fraudulent role.
JR
C
consumedconvert
Guest
Wow. That St. Francis was, er, I mean is, quite a guy.I live in a very Catholic universe. It was a worldview which my brothers and sisters and I inherited from our Holy Father Francis and sustains more than one million of us today, 800 years later.
Our Holy Father taught us several important lessions about being Christian.
That’s my universe.
- We must embrace the cross. It is our calling in life to take Christ’s place on the cross. This means that we will be asked to offer our suffering and even seek out forms of physical penance to atone for the sins of the world, even those committed within the Church. Our place is not to judge the Church, but to give up our lives on the cross for the Church as Christ did.
- We must trust him, our Holy Father Francis. He taught us that if we trusted him, we would have eternal life, because the words that he taught us were not his words, but the words that Christ had given to him. What words were those, “Go and rebuild my Church”.
- To rebuild the Church one must begin by rebuilding one’s soul, that of one’s family, the sould in one’s workplace, one’s nation. Slowly the world is transformed to Christ. But it all begins with the transformation of self, not others.
- Our Holy Father always taught us to be obedient to priests, bishops and the Pope, even if we believed that they were wrong. That the only time that we had the right to disobey was in matters of sin, not discipline or order. If we were asked to stand on our heads, even though it was ridiculous, Christ would bless us not for doing the ridiculous, but for showing the same obedience that he showed toward his Father in Heaven. According to Francis, God too asked his son to do something that confounded men. He asked he who was sinless to die to atone for sins. We too will be asked to do things that may confound us for the greater good of humanity.
- Our Father taught us that everyone is our brother and sister and that in each person Christ lives and is waiting to be touched by us. To mistrust someone, because they are lepers, is to ignore Christ.
- As to sinners and heretics Francis taught us that thought their sins were great, when they looked into our eyes they should see nothing of contempt, repudiation, or rejection. Every sinner and every heretic could be brought back by a look of mercy. This is a discipline that requires many years of practice, prayer, and sacrifice to develop. It is not easy. It is probably the most difficult virtue to acquire, mercy toward those whom we believe are in error.
- St. Francis taught us to remain silent in all things and speak only if necessary, for none of us has anything of substance to add, unless it is given to us by the Holy Spirit. Therefore, before we speak, we must ask the Spirit what we should say. We should hold our tongues and release our wills to the will of the Holy Spirit.
- Our Holy Father also taught us that to be Catholic did not mean to be perfect or that we would live in a perfect Church. It meant that we were fools for the Lord. Some are greater fools than others. Some fools are foolish enough to fall into sin. When they do, they should be the object of our charity and fraternal correction. Our correction must always be fraternal. There is only one Lord and one Vicar. We are nothing but brothers to each other, not Lords or Vicar of the Divine Master. Therefore, we may never assume that attitude. For if we do, that is the way that we will be perceived and if we are perceived as such, then we are perceive in a fraudulent role.
JR
:clapping:
J
JReducation
Guest
Yes he is. At his canonization the Church gave him two honorary titles.
- The saints Saint.
- The Mirror of Perfection
He fits into this thread well. He was not a priest. He was a layman. Some of his Friars (latin for Brothers) were priests and still are. But most are Lay Brothers.
Francis had such great respect for priests, bishops and the pope that he feared offending them.
He wrote “If I were to meet the most sinful priest and an angel, I would kiss the hand of the priest first, before venerating the angel. For only through the priest do I see any tangible sign of our Lord Jesus Christ on this Earth. Not even an angel can do what a priest can do. No angel can forgive sins, feed us the body and blood of Christ or wash away our sins through baptism.”
Yet, he fought clericalization. When the Church asked that his order be an order of priests he told the Pope that if this was his will he would comply, but that he was ordered by Christ himself to found an order of brothers who would go to the ends of the Earth to live the gospel in obedience, without property and in chastity. Then he waited to hear the Pope’s response.
Pope Innocent approved his way of life and withdrew the request. After Innocent died Honorius was elected. And Honorius put a papal bull on the rule of St. Francis so that not even the friars could change the rule. It could only be changed by another pope.
Every friar is a brother, even those who are ordained. Every friar does laundry, scrubs floors, cooks, shops for groceries, cleans toilets, is bound by obedience to Francis’ successor, even if the superior is not a priest and the subordinate is a priest. The subordinate assumes the humble role of being obedient.
The friars my never correct their superiors, the bishop, the pope or even civil authority except in matters that have been declared sins by the Church. They cannot assume sin. They must be guided by the Church’s moral law, not their personal judgement.
This is real detachment. This in essence is the Holy Poverty that Francis taught the friars, the Poor Clare nuns and the Secular Franciscans. These are the three orders that he founded.
Many people have founded other congregations that seek to follow the spirit of the Franciscans. They are related to us because they follow the same spirit. But they retain their autonomy, unlike the Friars Minor, Poor Clares and Secular Franciscans, who are bound by the Bull of Honorius to follow Francis’ words without gloss.
Pope Paul VI was the first pope to make some minor changes to the rule.
JR
W
Walking_Home
Guest
I live in a very Catholic universe. It was a worldview which my brothers and sisters and I inherited from our Holy Father Francis and sustains more than one million of us today, 800 years later.
Our Holy Father taught us several important lessions about being Christian.
That’s my universe.
- We must embrace the cross. It is our calling in life to take Christ’s place on the cross. This means that we will be asked to offer our suffering and even seek out forms of physical penance to atone for the sins of the world, even those committed within the Church. Our place is not to judge the Church, but to give up our lives on the cross for the Church as Christ did.
- We must trust him, our Holy Father Francis. He taught us that if we trusted him, we would have eternal life, because the words that he taught us were not his words, but the words that Christ had given to him. What words were those, “Go and rebuild my Church”.
- To rebuild the Church one must begin by rebuilding one’s soul, that of one’s family, the sould in one’s workplace, one’s nation. Slowly the world is transformed to Christ. But it all begins with the transformation of self, not others.
- **Our Holy Father always taught us to be obedient to priests, bishops and the Pope, even if we believed that they were wrong. That the only time that we had the right to disobey was in matters of sin, not discipline or order. ** If we were asked to stand on our heads, even though it was ridiculous, Christ would bless us not for doing the ridiculous, but for showing the same obedience that he showed toward his Father in Heaven. According to Francis, God too asked his son to do something that confounded men. He asked he who was sinless to die to atone for sins. We too will be asked to do things that may confound us for the greater good of humanity.
- Our Father taught us that everyone is our brother and sister and that in each person Christ lives and is waiting to be touched by us. To mistrust someone, because they are lepers, is to ignore Christ.
- As to sinners and heretics Francis taught us that thought their sins were great, when they looked into our eyes they should see nothing of contempt, repudiation, or rejection. Every sinner and every heretic could be brought back by a look of mercy. This is a discipline that requires many years of practice, prayer, and sacrifice to develop. It is not easy. It is probably the most difficult virtue to acquire, mercy toward those whom we believe are in error.
- St. Francis taught us to remain silent in all things and speak only if necessary, for none of us has anything of substance to add, unless it is given to us by the Holy Spirit. Therefore, before we speak, we must ask the Spirit what we should say. We should hold our tongues and release our wills to the will of the Holy Spirit.
- Our Holy Father also taught us that to be Catholic did not mean to be perfect or that we would live in a perfect Church. It meant that we were fools for the Lord. Some are greater fools than others. Some fools are foolish enough to fall into sin. When they do, they should be the object of our charity and fraternal correction. Our correction must always be fraternal. There is only one Lord and one Vicar. We are nothing but brothers to each other, not Lords or Vicar of the Divine Master. Therefore, we may never assume that attitude. For if we do, that is the way that we will be perceived and if we are perceived as such, then we are perceive in a fraudulent role.
JR
In case you did not know —it is quite unbecoming to use a Saint against a mandate of the Church. Pay close attention to the words – without any favouritism. We are bound by the Church --not to give favor to anyone --even clergy (priests/bishops) who take it upon themselves to distort/abuse and promote irreverence.
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html
- Complaints Regarding Abuses in Liturgical Matters
**
J
JReducation
Guest
W
Walking_Home
Guest
Because the Pope does it all the time. In fact, Pope Benedict’s favorite saints are St. Francis and St. Benedict. He tells all of his audiences to follow these two examples.Walking_Home;3724242 said:
I fail to see how St. Francis rules, admonitions, examples and lessons are in conflict with this.
Did you know that prior to him the blessed sacrament was kept on the side of the Church and that he was the first person to place the tabernacle on the center of the main altar? The Church picked up this tradition from his friars and later introduced it in the Council of Trent.
Did you also know that he started the 40 hour adoration of the Blessed Sacrament?
Did you also know that he wrote that if the Gospel books were ever found in an inappropriate place or if the Blessed Sacrament was ever found in an indignant place, that the friars were to find a place of honor for both the Gospels and the Blessed Sacrament?
Did you know that he was the first person to write songs in the language for the people to sing at mass before the Blessed Sacrament so that the people would understand what they were adoring?
JR
Quote=JReducation
. Our Holy Father always taught us to be obedient to priests, bishops and the Pope, even if we believed that they were wrong. That the only time that we had the right to disobey was in matters of sin, not discipline or order.
Why play games— You posted the above did you not. When the Church says we the laity are not to stand around the Altar with the priest — and a priest tells the laity the opposite – by your thoughts --we are to disobey the Church and obey an errant priest. It is quite unlikely that the Pope would encourage the use of our Saints in a manner that would be disobedient to the Church Herself.
C
consumedconvert
Guest
Why do you put words in people’s mouths? You are like old Don Quixote, searching for dragons to slay, but finding none so tilting at windmills.
Why are you “inventing” heretics?
Perhaps it’s time to withdraw to prayer. Isn’t that a much more “Catholic” thing to do than to go “heretic hunting?” We in the Church are not each other’s inquisitioners. We are each other’s siblings.
Please, stop searching for dragons to slay in your own Church. We all have enough inner sin to drive out and combat, and that is the much more real and satisfying adventure. As posted above, if one want to improve the Church, one must improve himself. If one wants to be a reformer, one must reform onseself.
Love is at the heart of orthodoxy.
Why are you “inventing” heretics?
Perhaps it’s time to withdraw to prayer. Isn’t that a much more “Catholic” thing to do than to go “heretic hunting?” We in the Church are not each other’s inquisitioners. We are each other’s siblings.
Please, stop searching for dragons to slay in your own Church. We all have enough inner sin to drive out and combat, and that is the much more real and satisfying adventure. As posted above, if one want to improve the Church, one must improve himself. If one wants to be a reformer, one must reform onseself.
Love is at the heart of orthodoxy.
C
Cat
Guest
So you are not only an expert on Catholic rubrics, but you are also an expert in Protestant denominations? That’s quite impressive.
Please present some examples.
I don’t get where you are coming from with this comparison of Protestant sects with the Catholic church. Protestant sects have no central authority, so it is up to each Christian, with the help of the Holy Spirit and based on the Bible alone, to determine what is right and what is wrong. THIS is why some Protestant denominations have “fallen” as you put it–they do not submit to the leader that Christ Himself appointed–the Pope.
J
JReducation
Guest
The priest is not asking you to do anything sinful. Secondly, he is inviting you, not ordering you. There is a difference.
Also, these are not my thoughts. These are the thoughts of one of the greatest saints that the Church has produced and in whom the Church has placed a great deal of trust.
Can you match his sanctity and his fidelity to the Church? Come back and see me when you do.
JR
W
Walking_Home
Guest
Why play games— You posted the above did you not. When the Church says we the laity are not to stand around the Altar with the priest — and a priest tells the laity the opposite – by your thoughts --we are to disobey the Church and obey an errant priest. It is quite unlikely that the Pope would encourage the use of our Saints in a manner that would be disobedient to the Church Herself.
The priest is not asking you to do anything sinful. Secondly, he is inviting you, not ordering you. There is a difference.
Also, these are not my thoughts. These are the thoughts of one of the greatest saints that the Church has produced and in whom the Church has placed a great deal of trust.
Can you match his sanctity and his fidelity to the Church? Come back and see me when you do.
JR
Quote=JReducation
. Our Holy Father always taught us **to be obedient to priests, bishops and the Pope, even if we believed that they were wrong. **That the only time that we had the right to disobey was in matters of sin, not discipline or order. If we were asked to stand on our heads, even though it was ridiculous, Christ would bless us not for doing the ridiculous, but for showing the same obedience that he showed toward his Father in Heaven. According to Francis, God too asked his son to do something that confounded men. He asked he who was sinless to die to atone for sins. We too will be asked to do things that may confound us for the greater good of humanity.
More word play JReducation. First you post St. Francis – to make the point that we are to obey a priest --even when he is wrong. You brought the pt. home with the priest “asking” us to stand on our heads–and the resulting obedience expected from the people.
Now to my example of the priest telling the people to stand around the Altar (which is against the Church) you change your tune by saying there is a difference --the priest is “inviting” the people to stand around the Altar. So really JReducation—now the priest is “inviting” the people to be disobedient to the Chruch. What happened to obeying the priest --as by your post —even if he asks/invites us to stand on our heads.
One more thing —nice try with your last line. My fidelity to the Church is reflected in not using one of our own Saints – against what the Church Herself has mandated and bound everyone to do.
W
Walking_Home
Guest
Nice try with your post – but it is expected from those who have become JR’s groupies.
E
ethelzguy
Guest
“JR Groupies”?
My goodness! He is one of the few here who can articulate without losing his thoughts to emotion. His posts are with steady hand and are well thought out and researched.
He must be getting under you skin a bit, no?
W
Walking_Home
Guest
“JR Groupies”?
My goodness! He is one of the few here who can articulate without losing his thoughts to emotion. His posts are with steady hand and are well thought out and researched.
He must be getting under you skin a bit,** no**?
Actually no.
C
consumedconvert
Guest
I think I prefer the term “friend.”
I don’t think, however, this is a suitable reply to my post. You are still tilting at windmills, very much to your own detriment, I’m afraid, and very possibly to the detriment of those around you. It’s more fun to tear down other Christians then to tear down the strongholds of sin within ourselves. How often have I been guilty of prefering tearing down another to building up my own spirituality through prayer and charity?
E
ethelzguy
Guest
Yah, I’m about fifteen years to old to be a “groupie”I think I prefer the term “friend.”
W
Walking_Home
Guest
I think I prefer the term "friend."
I don’t think, however, this is a suitable reply to my post. You are still tilting at windmills, very much to your own detriment, I’m afraid, and very possibly to the detriment of those around you. It’s more fun to tear down other Christians then to tear down the strongholds of sin within ourselves. How often have I been guilty of prefering tearing down another to building up my own spirituality through prayer and charity?
Call it what you wish. As to unsuitable post —take a look at your own post no. 51. Seems you missed the meaning of charity with that one. So Pot–quit trying to call the kettle black.
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